George your first non elected President in history...

[metal_minx]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So really it's the same as before...

The US is a mercantile nation whose business is the buying and selling of goods, many of them grown domestically. Your comparisons to Rome, even Britain, are wrong because outside of our period of expansion on our continent one would be more apt to point out that our culture more closely parallels the Venitian model...

Economically, yes. But I was thinking at the time of the military power and presence around the world. You can't disagree that the US has an influence by just the mere presence of its armed forces near any particular region. I'm thinking that soon Dubya is going to overstretch our military by starting up many small wars, just as the Romans and British did, and ignore the growing dissent and failing economy at home. While not technically colonizing countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, it's pretty damn close...these wars cost a lot of money, money that could be put to better use on our own soil rather than squandered billions of dollars worth of bombs. The end of US supremecy is near, it's not if but when this will happen. Soon the American people will realize what an expensive, futile effort King George has gotten us into and it will be the toughest test our country has faced in a long time to put a stop to it.

 

[SINthysist]

There is that risk, but we have really rendered Al Qaeda impotent, example:

Saturday Nov. 30, 2002; 12:58 p.m. EST
Terror Expert: Al Qaeda Too Weak for Another 9/11

Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terror network is concentrating on overseas targets because heightened security precautions have made it too difficult to pull off another 9/11-like strike within U.S. borders, a Heritage Foundation global terrorism expert said Saturday.

"I think they're looking for soft targets and that's a sign that the war on terrorism is going pretty well," Dr. John Hulsman told Fox News Channel's "Fox & Friends" morning show. "They can't attack the United States in a massive manner as they did (on) 9/11."

Hulsman said he views al Qaeda as "an evil multinational corporation" that has been hobbled by U.S. strikes on its "home office" in Afghanistan.

"That they can't attack America, that they can't do a big Sept. 11-style attack, that they have to do these midlevel attacks," he contended, "is actually, ironically, a pretty good sign that the war on terror is going as well as one can expect."

The Heritage analyst warned, however, that al Qaeda is still capable of major strikes against "midlevel soft targets such as in Bali (Indonesia)," where more than 200 people were killed in a bomb blast last month.

He also cited the Thanksgiving Day attacks in Kenya, "where there aren't the security concerns that there are in the United States."

The terror network's biggest challenge right now, said Hulsman, is to find vulnerable targets "to prove that they're still viable."

But the U.S. is far from out of the woods.

"The key is that they have to keep striking the United States to be a rallying cry for anti-Americanism," he warned.

Hulsman said he expects al Qaeda to attack soft targets in the U.S., such as hotels, shopping malls and other places with weak security that are hallmarks of U.S. commerce, predicting, "I think that there may very well be an attack between now and Christmas."



EOC&P


Iraq may present problems, but nothing in the last century of combat operations by the Iraqi Armed Forces suggests that they will stand and fight in front of a well-trained Army, which we have.

Similarly Tehran is on the brink of collapse and with the end of any other strong religious base from which to launch terror we can work with the Saudis to end the Devil's pact they are in with the Wahhabbi's. That pretty much ends our foray into that area and we can begin to withdraw and let the world try and settle down some. As pointed out time after time, Muslims are inherently peaceful, correct? [Israel, with elections over will soon end Arafat's reighn of terror...]

This will allow us to once again get complacent until South America erupts or the world finally turns it's attention on Africa... But the era of Big oil, big oil embargoes, and oil wars is almost over as are a few holdovers from the cold war which should soon hopefully be resolved peacefully if not satisfactorally...

 

[Don K Dyck]

Re: Re: It must be donut holes!!!

Why take over an undeveloped oil reserve when you can take over fully developed oil reserves? Cheaper. TB4p

Hi TB4p,

The U$ already "owns" Kuwait . . . it was the over-exploitation of the field jointly owned with Iraq and Saudi Arabia (?) that was the excuse for the 1991 Desertstorm Imperialist War.

Now there have been further discoveries under Iraq, amounting to about 20% of the world's undeveloped oil reserves, that the French and Russians have signed up to develop, and the US oil corporations, excluded by the trade embargo, want their cut to the exclusion of all others (as usual).

The only way that that can be achieved is as spoils of war, because the new puppet government would allow it to happen as a trade-off for getting power. That way the U$ government doesn't have to breach international law, again, on behalf og the U$ multinational corporations.

Otherwise, the answer must be in the donut holes.

 

[Ham Murabi]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So really it's the same as before...

The shortcoming are always a matter of debate and are usually near the top of any political agenda and as for not knowing any better we can always look at America to see a worse system than our own...

The main thing about the NHS to the man in the street is that it's uncomplicated and easy to use...

ppman

Better or worse is always debatable. I'll stick with the current American model, the one that attracts wealthy, ill people from all over the world for the best possible care.
Your "man on the street" comment, meanwhile, strikes me as elitist, as if it's best that people of that rank don't have to deal with such matters, or bother thinking seriously about them.

 

[Don K Dyck]

Re: Hey Donkey Dick

Remember this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet within all this self-aggrandisement, America has produced jazz, the stage musical and . . . oh yes, the US Constitution that was overridden by the Supreme Court in the 2000 elections . . .

Good one, SIN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I said:



Don, you're full of shit.

Explain to me how the Constitution was overridden by the Supreme Court. Specific facts, not high school rhetoric.

I'm asking Don, and no one else to qualify his dumb statement.

Fredwave, peepee boy, and 70W30 - no one is asking you. Don stepped in the dog shit and doesn't need your help cleaning it off.

Can't wait for this response.
____________________________________________
Of course, Don never responded, because as usual his posts have no basis in fact. He just makes things up as he goes along.


Hee-haw.

OK Miles . . . it's a lovely sunny day of about 70 degrees and I am in a happy mood . . .

The conspiracy goes this way . . . firstly appoint good ole boy judges to the U$ Supreme Court and let them lie there until death do us part.

Then ensure that electoral reform of an antiquated system does NOT occur under any circumstances.

Next have a corrupt group of conspiratorial maniacs fronted by a person of limited intellligence and fewer skills to front the cameras. (Like Reagan, only he don't have to read a long script, only monosyllables and short sentences).

When establishing a dynasty it is important to have a broad base, so put brother into power in say, well, how about Florida, home of the dissident Cubans, drug runners and numerous conservative retirees.

Now run an election which only about 20% of Americans will vote at. Pick a few, say one, state where the vote can be "rigged" in its broadest sense . . . (I concede that ALL political parties do this in every electorate.) . . . just in case the American people have sufficient temerity to vote for the sound public policies of the Democrats.

Oh dear, it's a good thing that we have our contingency plan . . . too many voters realised that the Republicans tell porky pies . . . "Hello, Supreme Court judges, your assistance is now required . . . who do we own, who can we blackmail, got three, need four, which one of the others will it be? . . . nobody needs to know . . . that picadillo with the secretary? . . . of course the FBI will erase all reference to it from their files . . . there you have it, a 4/3 judgement in favour of the election of the Bush family dynasty . . . brought to you for the benefit of BIG BU$INE$$ and BIG OIL . . . in a corrupted and self-destructing economy . . . QED

Once all the who-ha dies down we can re-start our campaign of "One World Government" dominated by the U$ where the real business of government, promoting the interests of BIG BU$INE$$ is conducted "out the back" by the puppetmasters representing those interests rather than the American people. . . after all, George Senior promised just this scenario after the 1991 Desertstorm War of Imperialism.

Being serious for a brief moment . . . Miles, there are groups in the US who have no regard for the American people, they only believe in their God-given birthright for exploiting all the people at any expense, for their own profits . . . the Gordon Gecko "Greed is good" philosophy . . . much of the rest of the developed world has got past that stage . . . end of being serious.

 

[Texan]

Re: Re: Re: It must be donut holes!!!

Now there have been further discoveries under Iraq, amounting to about 20% of the world's undeveloped oil reserves, that the French and Russians have signed up to develop, and the US oil corporations, excluded by the trade embargo, want their cut to the exclusion of all others (as usual).

The only way that that can be achieved is as spoils of war, because the new puppet government would allow it to happen as a trade-off for getting power. That way the U$ government doesn't have to breach international law, again, on behalf og the U$ multinational corporations.

Donkey, I don't believe that is the motivation for the removal of Sadman. However, if it is/were, then it would be a pretty good move.

If the Russians and French want to prop up a ruthless tyrant with demonstrated regional domination aspirations, then it makes sense to undercut their plans. The U.S. isn't known for protecting opportunities for American oil companies overseas. Based upon history, the French and Russians (more likely BP or SHELL) will end up with the business after the U.S. takes out Sadman for them.

Your "breach international law" comments are based in fantasy. And the "multinational corporations" that are likely to benefit (at trememdous risk of capital) are Dutch and British.

 

[Ham Murabi]

Re: Re: Hey Donkey Dick

OK Miles . . . it's a lovely sunny day of about 70 degrees and I am in a happy mood . . .

The conspiracy goes this way . . . firstly appoint good ole boy judges to the U$ Supreme Court and let them lie there until death do us part.

Then ensure that electoral reform of an antiquated system does NOT occur under any circumstances.

Next have a corrupt group of conspiratorial maniacs fronted by a person of limited intellligence and fewer skills to front the cameras. (Like Reagan, only he don't have to read a long script, only monosyllables and short sentences).

When establishing a dynasty it is important to have a broad base, so put brother into power in say, well, how about Florida, home of the dissident Cubans, drug runners and numerous conservative retirees.

Now run an election which only about 20% of Americans will vote at. Pick a few, say one, state where the vote can be "rigged" in its broadest sense . . . (I concede that ALL political parties do this in every electorate.) . . . just in case the American people have sufficient temerity to vote for the sound public policies of the Democrats.

Oh dear, it's a good thing that we have our contingency plan . . . too many voters realised that the Republicans tell porky pies . . . "Hello, Supreme Court judges, your assistance is now required . . . who do we own, who can we blackmail, got three, need four, which one of the others will it be? . . . nobody needs to know . . . that picadillo with the secretary? . . . of course the FBI will erase all reference to it from their files . . . there you have it, a 4/3 judgement in favour of the election of the Bush family dynasty . . . brought to you for the benefit of BIG BU$INE$$ and BIG OIL . . . in a corrupted and self-destructing economy . . . QED

Once all the who-ha dies down we can re-start our campaign of "One World Government" dominated by the U$ where the real business of government, promoting the interests of BIG BU$INE$$ is conducted "out the back" by the puppetmasters representing those interests rather than the American people. . . after all, George Senior promised just this scenario after the 1991 Desertstorm War of Imperialism.

Being serious for a brief moment . . . Miles, there are groups in the US who have no regard for the American people, they only believe in their God-given birthright for exploiting all the people at any expense, for their own profits . . . the Gordon Gecko "Greed is good" philosophy . . . much of the rest of the developed world has got past that stage . . . end of being serious.

Miles is right. You are full of shit.

 

[Don K Dyck]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So really it's the same as before...

Economically, yes. But I was thinking at the time of the military power and presence around the world. You can't disagree that the US has an influence by just the mere presence of its armed forces near any particular region. I'm thinking that soon Dubya is going to overstretch our military by starting up many small wars, just as the Romans and British did, and ignore the growing dissent and failing economy at home. While not technically colonizing countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, it's pretty damn close...these wars cost a lot of money, money that could be put to better use on our own soil rather than squandered billions of dollars worth of bombs. The end of US supremecy is near, it's not if but when this will happen. Soon the American people will realize what an expensive, futile effort King George has gotten us into and it will be the toughest test our country has faced in a long time to put a stop to it.

Hi Minx . . . some good news in the Oz Victorian State elections . . . the greens polled 10% of the vote, taking them almmost exclusively from the redundant Liberal Party (conservative), and may even get a seat in the Upper House dominated by the conservatives since being established about 1840 . . . it seems the kids have spoken because over 50% of the Green vote was first-timers.

Now Minx . . . you gotta remember that the role of government is to keep the NE military-industrial estsablishment supplied with lovely contracts which they can expand out into huge profits by not satisfactorily performing to ever-changing specifications.

Where did you ever get the strange notion that U$ government was for the American people . . . wash your mouth out with soap, immediately!!.

 

[Don K Dyck]

Speculation, sadly . . .

There is that risk, but we have really rendered Al Qaeda impotent, example:

Saturday Nov. 30, 2002; 12:58 p.m. EST
Terror Expert: Al Qaeda Too Weak for Another 9/11

Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terror network is concentrating on overseas targets because heightened security precautions have made it too difficult to pull off another 9/11-like strike within U.S. borders, a Heritage Foundation global terrorism expert said Saturday.

"I think they're looking for soft targets and that's a sign that the war on terrorism is going pretty well," Dr. John Hulsman told Fox News Channel's "Fox & Friends" morning show. "They can't attack the United States in a massive manner as they did (on) 9/11."

Hulsman said he views al Qaeda as "an evil multinational corporation" that has been hobbled by U.S. strikes on its "home office" in Afghanistan.

"That they can't attack America, that they can't do a big Sept. 11-style attack, that they have to do these midlevel attacks," he contended, "is actually, ironically, a pretty good sign that the war on terror is going as well as one can expect."

The Heritage analyst warned, however, that al Qaeda is still capable of major strikes against "midlevel soft targets such as in Bali (Indonesia)," where more than 200 people were killed in a bomb blast last month.

He also cited the Thanksgiving Day attacks in Kenya, "where there aren't the security concerns that there are in the United States."

The terror network's biggest challenge right now, said Hulsman, is to find vulnerable targets "to prove that they're still viable."

But the U.S. is far from out of the woods.

"The key is that they have to keep striking the United States to be a rallying cry for anti-Americanism," he warned.

Hulsman said he expects al Qaeda to attack soft targets in the U.S., such as hotels, shopping malls and other places with weak security that are hallmarks of U.S. commerce, predicting, "I think that there may very well be an attack between now and Christmas."



EOC&P


Iraq may present problems, but nothing in the last century of combat operations by the Iraqi Armed Forces suggests that they will stand and fight in front of a well-trained Army, which we have.

Similarly Tehran is on the brink of collapse and with the end of any other strong religious base from which to launch terror we can work with the Saudis to end the Devil's pact they are in with the Wahhabbi's. That pretty much ends our foray into that area and we can begin to withdraw and let the world try and settle down some. As pointed out time after time, Muslims are inherently peaceful, correct? [Israel, with elections over will soon end Arafat's reighn of terror...]

This will allow us to once again get complacent until South America erupts or the world finally turns it's attention on Africa... But the era of Big oil, big oil embargoes, and oil wars is almost over as are a few holdovers from the cold war which should soon hopefully be resolved peacefully if not satisfactorally...

Hi SIN, sadly I think that Hulsman is speculating while Dubyah waits to be told when to start the U$-Iraq War for Undeveloped Oil Reserves. Have to keep the people happy for Christmas . . . the alternative is simply unChristian . . .

Generating concern in any country, including the U$, is done by small groups . . .

9/11 there were 19(?) or was it 28 (?) to take out 3,000 . . .

Oklahoma was one driver who walked away . . . and was later caught . . .

The Washington sniper was two bfs and one rifle firing single shots . . .

the only beneficiary is the anti-gun lobby who want to disarm America to allow an Asian-style dictatorship . . .

Your second post demonstrates that my earlier prognostications of a domino war in which the U$ plans to take over ALL Middle East oil reserves and so creating a need for conscription/draft of American students as cannnon fodder for the war machine.

Remember . . . you heard it first on Lit . . .

 

[miles]

Re: Re: Hey Donkey Dick

OK Miles . . . it's a lovely sunny day of about 70 degrees and I am in a happy mood . . .

The conspiracy goes this way . . . firstly appoint good ole boy judges to the U$ Supreme Court and let them lie there until death do us part.

Then ensure that electoral reform of an antiquated system does NOT occur under any circumstances.

Next have a corrupt group of conspiratorial maniacs fronted by a person of limited intellligence and fewer skills to front the cameras. (Like Reagan, only he don't have to read a long script, only monosyllables and short sentences).

When establishing a dynasty it is important to have a broad base, so put brother into power in say, well, how about Florida, home of the dissident Cubans, drug runners and numerous conservative retirees.

to know . . . that picadillo with the secretary? . . . of course the FBI will erase all reference to it from their files . . . there you have it, a 4/3 judgement in favour of the election of the Bush family dynasty . . . brought to you for the benefit of BIG BU$INE$$ and BIG OIL . . . in a corrupted and self-destructing economy . . . QED

Once all the who-ha dies down we can re-start our campaign of "Oneby the puppetmasters representing those interests rather than the American people. . . after all, George Senior promised just this scenario after the 1991 Desertstorm War of Imperialism.

Being serious for a brief moment . . . Miles, there are groups in

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a trainload of Donkey Shit. Do you think by slapping together more meaningless sentences you'll confuse someone into thinking you know what you're talking about?


You said the Supreme Court violated the Constitution.

I asked how.

You go on some schizo rant, completely avoiding the question. The simple fact is, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. So typical!

Donkey Dick, you're an ass.

 

[jeff_is_smiling]

From the original post....

yes.....

My advantage is seeing all the children (like you) come out of the woodwork to talk up how evil, unsophisticated, morally corrupt america is. Makes me hug my children and tell them, "This is why you should never have to rely on another country in order to prevent being forced to speak German...like this guys country did."

Can you explain to me the advantage you have seen by way of the European Union? The Euro dollar? Can you imagine what NATO might be like if, say, the US withdrew?

The line for rebels from Europe to start kissing my american ass starts over here...get in line pal...

 

[p_p_man]

Re: From the original post....

Can you explain to me the advantage you have seen by way of the European Union? The Euro dollar?

Well since you ask the Euro is frequently going through par against the US dollar.

Your currency is rapidly becoming the second most powerful in the world...

But then I doubt if you're told this...

ppman

 

[Don K Dyck]

Re: Re: Re: Hey Donkey Dick

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a trainload of Donkey Shit. Do you think by slapping together more meaningless sentences you'll confuse someone into thinking you know what you're talking about?


You said the Supreme Court violated the Constitution.

I asked how.

You go on some schizo rant, completely avoiding the question. The simple fact is, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. So typical!

Donkey Dick, you're an ass.

Meanwhile Mules . . . the American public and also the Oz public organise protests against the US-Iraq War for Control of Undeveloped OIl Reserves in the Middle East . . . and against the inevidable expansion of that war to include firstly, Iran, and then Saudi Arabia, those naughty Arabs who pushed the U$ oil corporations out of a $US25 Billion gas development project because they wanted to develop their own petro-chemical industry.

Watch it happen . . . and weep when you are conscripted/drafted as cannon fodder for the NE military-industrial complex.

<pssst!! Mules! Didn't they teach you in debating that losing your cool was the first sign of losing the debate? Just in case you didn't know . . . >

 

[curious2c]

Just to be more accurate...Gerald Ford is the only president to not be 'elected' he was appointed after the watergate decable.

 

[Don K Dyck]

U$-Europe Economic War???

Two huge countries that have never been able to efficiently distribute scarce resources over difficult terrain and huge distances with no real natural enemies because of some impressive physical defenses...

You think that's gonna happen now?

Not without US investment.

And if we invest, and it works, who gets richer?

Who has the cropland that will be needed?

When we solve the oil problem, which we will shortly, probably hydrogen fuel cells, the FOOD becomes the next great world bargaining chip...

Putting the US and Canada (and South America) in the driver's seat again...

Update your geo-political thinking please!

Sorry SIN, I inadvertantly overlooked this post. The question is not whether investment capital is required but rather "Will India and China want U$ investment capital?"

China certainly does and has encouraged it to maintain their 8% pa annual growth rate . . . what is the U$ growth rate at present?

India is taking a slower, different route. There are historic connections with England and little interest in the U$. As the U$ dollar declines in importance, the Indians may prefer to deal with the Europeans who have the larger and stronger consumer market for the Indian low cost high profit manufactured goods.

I guess that means that the U$ will declare war on India to takeover that market from the Europeans . . . all in the name of suppressing terrorism . . .

 

[teddybear4play]

Re: Re: Hey Donkey Dick

OK Miles . . . it's a lovely sunny day of about 70 degrees and I am in a happy mood . . .

The conspiracy goes this way . . . firstly appoint good ole boy judges to the U$ Supreme Court and let them lie there until death do us part.

Then ensure that electoral reform of an antiquated system does NOT occur under any circumstances.

Next have a corrupt group of conspiratorial maniacs fronted by a person of limited intellligence and fewer skills to front the cameras. (Like Reagan, only he don't have to read a long script, only monosyllables and short sentences).

When establishing a dynasty it is important to have a broad base, so put brother into power in say, well, how about Florida, home of the dissident Cubans, drug runners and numerous conservative retirees.

Now run an election which only about 20% of Americans will vote at. Pick a few, say one, state where the vote can be "rigged" in its broadest sense . . . (I concede that ALL political parties do this in every electorate.) . . . just in case the American people have sufficient temerity to vote for the sound public policies of the Democrats.

Oh dear, it's a good thing that we have our contingency plan . . . too many voters realised that the Republicans tell porky pies . . . "Hello, Supreme Court judges, your assistance is now required . . . who do we own, who can we blackmail, got three, need four, which one of the others will it be? . . . nobody needs to know . . . that picadillo with the secretary? . . . of course the FBI will erase all reference to it from their files . . . there you have it, a 4/3 judgement in favour of the election of the Bush family dynasty . . . brought to you for the benefit of BIG BU$INE$$ and BIG OIL . . . in a corrupted and self-destructing economy . . . QED

Once all the who-ha dies down we can re-start our campaign of "One World Government" dominated by the U$ where the real business of government, promoting the interests of BIG BU$INE$$ is conducted "out the back" by the puppetmasters representing those interests rather than the American people. . . after all, George Senior promised just this scenario after the 1991 Desertstorm War of Imperialism.

Being serious for a brief moment . . . Miles, there are groups in the US who have no regard for the American people, they only believe in their God-given birthright for exploiting all the people at any expense, for their own profits . . . the Gordon Gecko "Greed is good" philosophy . . . much of the rest of the developed world has got past that stage . . . end of being serious.

You're insane. You think the Republicans set up all these contingencies just in case the election would come down to it? Bullshit! They have better things to do.

More obvious conclusion (therefore the one you reject out of hand): The Republicans didn't spend a lot of time in Florida, because they figured between the solid name recognition of a popular governor and the fact that Republicans for the most part control the South these days, they thought they had the state in the bag.

So they spend time in other places. Meanwhile, the Democrats drum up huge support, especially among African-Americans. The Dems spooked them all they could -- Gore called the election "good vs. evil" and publicly stated that if Bush won, the Supreme Court could reenact the three-fifths clause -- and they turned out for Gore and the Dems to the tune of better than 90%.

Meanwhile, the conveniently timed DUI story hits just before the election. Undecideds break 3-1 for Gore when normally, the party not in power carries those people who walk into the booths not knowing who they'll be voting for.

This makes Florida so close that it falls within a margin for error, since every election has problematic ballots. It usually doesn't matter, though, but this time it does.

The Dems try to squeeze every vote they can, with the complicit help of the overwhelmingly liberal State Supreme Court.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Supreme Court knocks down the State's ruling by a vote of 7-2. You see "evidence" of a conspiracy, believe with all your heart that Bush stole the election because it fits nicely in your worldview of conservative corporate whores taking over the world, and look like a damn fool on an Internet message board saying so.

TB4p

 

[Don K Dyck]

Re: Re: Re: Hey Donkey Dick

You're insane. You think the Republicans set up all these contingencies just in case the election would come down to it? Bullshit! They have better things to do.

More obvious conclusion (therefore the one you reject out of hand): The Republicans didn't spend a lot of time in Florida, because they figured between the solid name recognition of a popular governor and the fact that Republicans for the most part control the South these days, they thought they had the state in the bag.

So they spend time in other places. Meanwhile, the Democrats drum up huge support, especially among African-Americans. The Dems spooked them all they could -- Gore called the election "good vs. evil" and publicly stated that if Bush won, the Supreme Court could reenact the three-fifths clause -- and they turned out for Gore and the Dems to the tune of better than 90%.

Meanwhile, the conveniently timed DUI story hits just before the election. Undecideds break 3-1 for Gore when normally, the party not in power carries those people who walk into the booths not knowing who they'll be voting for.

This makes Florida so close that it falls within a margin for error, since every election has problematic ballots. It usually doesn't matter, though, but this time it does.

The Dems try to squeeze every vote they can, with the complicit help of the overwhelmingly liberal State Supreme Court.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Supreme Court knocks down the State's ruling by a vote of 7-2. You see "evidence" of a conspiracy, believe with all your heart that Bush stole the election because it fits nicely in your worldview of conservative corporate whores taking over the world, and look like a damn fool on an Internet message board saying so.

TB4p

Good post, TB4p . . . so please explain something to me about the US election system . . . In Oz we have to account for EVERY vote and voting is preferential and compulsory with fines if you do not attend the polling booth or enter a pre-poll or absentee vote.

Am I correct in assuming that US elections are a matter of almost guess work? I don't understand, after 30 years politicking, how there can be any "margin of error" in a census based election system.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey Donkey Dick

Good post, TB4p . . . so please explain something to me about the US election system . . . In Oz we have to account for EVERY vote and voting is preferential and compulsory with fines if you do not attend the polling booth or enter a pre-poll or absentee vote.

I think that's an awful idea. You then have people who don't care voting randomly just to avoid a fine.

Am I correct in assuming that US elections are a matter of almost guess work? I don't understand, after 30 years politicking, how there can be any "margin of error" in a census based election system.

No, any counting of votes anywhere by any method has a "margin of error," because out of some number of votes counted, one will be counted incorrectly. If the error is 1 out of 100000, then the margin of error is 0.00001%.

It just so happened, in Florida during the 2000 election, that the two candidates totals were closer together than the margin of error in counting the votes. One candidate had more votes than the other, but the ballots might have had to have been recounted 20 times to determine with any reliable accuracy which that was. No one will never know who actually won that election, but that really doesn't matter. Statistically (which means accounting for the margin of error), it was a tie.

All that can be done in such a situation is to follow the procedures and the laws that were in place when the election was held, and that is what was done.

The problems that occurred were due to the Florida Supreme Court attempting to create new rules after the election had been held, which is unconstitutional.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey Donkey Dick

All that can be done in such a situation is to follow the procedures and the laws that were in place when the election was held, and that is what was done.

The problems that occurred were due to the Florida Supreme Court attempting to create new rules after the election had been held, which is unconstitutional.

Excellent post, Byron, and a very good and succinct summary of the essence of the issues at play in that Florida election. It seems to me that much of the conflict (beyond the obvious pragmatic conflict of who would win - Bush or Gore, Repub. or Dem) centered on two competing visions of the democratic process itself.

Democrats, being generally more idealistic, felt cheated not just because Gore lost, but more basically because the election fell far short of the ideals of democracy - that each voter's vote should be count towards the final outcome. The Republicans took the more pragmatic position that the democratic process can never be any better than the system that exists to determine the people's will. As such, they argued, democracy requires that we depend on the rule of law to determine an outcome even if those laws don't allow for an ideal solution.

The problem I see with the conspiracy theories here and elsewhere is they seem to look back on this election with hindsight and attribute more foreknowledge of the consequences of voting procedures to state officials than were probably there. The election clearly showed that the process was terribly flawed and needed an overhaul, but to say the election was "stolen" is an exaggeration. The election itself was undetermined given the flawed nature of the system and both sides gave it their all to win by other means once it became clear that there was no clear winner. In the end our institutions worked well enough to provide us with a winner that was satisfactory enough to accept.

Given our almost limitless capacity for human error, self-interest, and poor judgement, I take a fairly sanguine view of the 2000 election. It was a modest failure of democracy, but a reasonable success for the rule of law.

I'll take that.

 

[jeff_is_smiling]

Re: Re: From the original post....

Well since you ask the Euro is frequently going through par against the US dollar.

Your currency is rapidly becoming the second most powerful in the world...

But then I doubt if you're told this...

ppman

Of course we get told when something isn't right....for years we tried to get "par" with the english pound...eventually succeeding...we will look at the euro dollar as another challenge..not as a "second place"....if we did that, we would have worried about the mark. By the way, how much did it hurt to throw your own money in the toilet for the euro dollar?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: From the original post....

Of course we get told when something isn't right....for years we tried to get "par" with the english pound...eventually succeeding...we will look at the euro dollar as another challenge..not as a "second place"....if we did that, we would have worried about the mark. By the way, how much did it hurt to throw your own money in the toilet for the euro dollar?

To my knowledge the British pound has never been on par with the dollar and at the moment the UK hasn't adopted the Euro...

Are you sure you haven't been dreaming?...



ppman

 

[Don K Dyck]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey Donkey Dick

I think that's an awful idea. You then have people who don't care voting randomly just to avoid a fine. No, any counting of votes anywhere by any method has a "margin of error," because out of some number of votes counted, one will be counted incorrectly. If the error is 1 out of 100000, then the margin of error is 0.00001%.

It just so happened, in Florida during the 2000 election, that the two candidates totals were closer together than the margin of error in counting the votes. One candidate had more votes than the other, but the ballots might have had to have been recounted 20 times to determine with any reliable accuracy which that was. No one will never know who actually won that election, but that really doesn't matter. Statistically (which means accounting for the margin of error), it was a tie.

All that can be done in such a situation is to follow the procedures and the laws that were in place when the election was held, and that is what was done.

The problems that occurred were due to the Florida Supreme Court attempting to create new rules after the election had been held, which is unconstitutional.

Thanks Byron, a lucid account. Despite your random or informal voting, which can be as high as 10% in some electorates, the results give a much more accurate guide to the people's preference. In very close elections, there can be numerous re-counts and court appeals for just about any real or imagined breach of the Electoral Act. It is reasonably common for a Member to be elected on a margin under 100 votes. Remember over 90% of aussies vote in each Federal, State and local government election, so the system is robust against informal voting.

And thanks too, Oliver for your expansion of the facts. I now have a better understanding of the problem facing Americans. Hindsight always being 20/20 vision sometimes sees substance in shadows. The need for electoral reform would appear to be critical, but as the present incumbents benefit from the status quo, will there be any changes?

 

[SINthysist]

Hey, this is turning out better than expected...

Again, we have a world-wide oil-glut, i.e., too many producers. This is why oil has not been used as a weapon against us. The economies of too many oil producers are shaky and MUST HAVE THE REVENUES to survive.

p_p_man, while the currencies may be on a par now, let me note that on Friday, Walmart shattered all sales records. What does that mean? US economy back on track. Bad news for EU. Worse news for China.

Elected or not, at this point, in the next election, I'll vote for a Bush for the first time. Especially if the wicked witch of Illinois/Arkansas/New York runs...

 

[p_p_man]

p_p_man, while the currencies may be on a par now, let me note that on Friday, Walmart shattered all sales records. What does that mean? US economy back on track. Bad news for EU. Worse news for China.

A Walmart does not an economy make...

The Euro has been through par on a number of occasions this year. This is probably due more to your faltering economy than to the Euro's strength...

After all how can the Euro be strong?

The UK hasn't joined up yet...



ppman

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

p_p_man, while the currencies may be on a par now, let me note that on Friday, Walmart shattered all sales records. What does that mean? US economy back on track. Bad news for EU. Worse news for China.

Morning AJ, nice to see you again. Hello PP.

AJ, did you know that Wal-Mart has invaded the UK? They bought a chain of stores that was close to going under. I don't know where they stand, how they've been doing or anything like that, but I am curious about it.