General Lee Speaking

[artful]

I'd like to toss this out on the floor of the Forum,...not to be trampled on,...but for those of you who might wish to dicuss the topics presented!

I haven't researched this,...but generally speaking,...I think the world population STILL maintains a plus ratio for women as compared to the number of men.

Our society has more women than men. In days gone by,...I *THINK*,... men had an edge as to their *choice* of women. Why? Because women had FEWER choices as to WHAT they could DO with their lives.

As women become MORE liberated,...new horizons have opened up for them, (more choices). Here in the good ol' USA,...at an early age. Parents are whispering DIFFERENT secrets in their daughters ears,~*FOR THE FIRST TIME*~.

Our educational system is influencing females in ways NEVER before seen. Due to this onslaught of NEW information, (more choices), necessarily comes CONFUSION.

Why,...because it is a MAJOR shift in role responsibilities that we are engaged in.

One in which there are no proven track records to go by, (historically speaking). We are ALL trying to handle this NEW way of society.

Good or bad, is discerned mostly by the, "eye of the beholder". Women in THIS society TODAY, have found NEW excitement in their lives.

Excitement that their grandmothers found little participaqtion in.

In their joy, and eagerness to embrace these newfound choices, they tend to NOT depend so much on sharing there NEW desires with men, but with other women.

If you don't think this is true, then I suggest you look at the abundance of female groups, and clubs that permeate our society.

Watch the excited, glowing faces, filled with anticipatory and enthusiastic expressions of dynamic converstions that happen in our schools.

They are happening EVERYWHERE. Clubs, nightclubs, fitness centers, restaurants, cafes, organizations, businesses, and households.

Their discussions are often heated and animated, asking each other questions and giving answers back. SOOOOOO,..."Generally Speaking",... Whaddya think ?

As this is an ongoing thread, (as pertains to BDSM), please feel free to shift from one topic to another. How does this affect what WE know as BDSM ?

 

[A Desert Rose]

Well Art, I am a professional woman in the business world and a submissive woman at home.
I think like most subs, we know how, when and where to submit and especially to whom. I surrender to my Dom (when I had one lol) and to no one else.
I am a liberated woman and with the right Dom, I am most liberated.
Interesting topic you have brought up. Thank you

 

[Lancecastor]

In their joy, and eagerness to embrace these newfound choices, they tend to NOT depend so much on sharing there NEW desires with men, but with other women.

If you don't think this is true, then I suggest you look at the abundance of female groups, and clubs that permeate our society.

Watch the excited, glowing faces, filled with anticipatory and enthusiastic expressions of dynamic converstions that happen in our schools.

They are happening EVERYWHERE. Clubs, nightclubs, fitness centers, restaurants, cafes, organizations, businesses, and households.

Their discussions are often heated and animated, asking each other questions and giving answers back. SOOOOOO,..."Generally Speaking",... Whaddya think ? How does this affect what WE know as BDSM ? [/B]

My first reaction is that there is no correlation between women's "advances" in society and social women's groups.

I would suggest that women have always socialized in all-female groups...church groups, neighborhood coffee klatches, service organizations, etc.

More all-female group choices exist for socialization and they are more integrated with what was male society...health clubs and the other interest groups you mentioned...but women have always socialized in groups as have men, I would suggest.

In terms of the general psyche of a woman in 2002 versus say a half century ago in 1952, I would think it is fair to say that women are indeed taking part in a wider variety of socialization and employment streams in society.

Your last line asks how all of this affects what "We" know as BDSM.

I seem to recall that you are of an age, Art, that puts you in the position of having seen most of the last half century's changes, whereas I have seen less...so "we" is relative and dependant on one's social "wiring", I think.

As for perceived effects from my perspective...I think women my age are generally more confident and self-assured than those ten years their senior.

I think those ten years my junior are generally insecure and less self-assured, comparitively speaking, which I don't understand.

But in terms of BDSM, I've noticed that women who were born after 1970 or so seem to be into D/s, for example , in far greater numbers than my contemporaries born in the previous decade.

Just my observations.

Cheers
Lance

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: General Lee Speaking

My first reaction is that there is no correlation between women's "advances" in society and social women's groups.

I would suggest that women have always socialized in all-female groups...church groups, neighborhood coffee klatches, service organizations, etc.

More all-female group choices exist for socialization and they are more integrated with what was male society...health clubs and the other interest groups you mentioned...but women have always socialized in groups as have men, I would suggest.

In terms of the general psyche of a woman in 2002 versus say a half century ago in 1952, I would think it is fair to say that women are indeed taking part in a wider variety of socialization and employment streams in society.

Your last line asks how all of this affects what "We" know as BDSM.

I seem to recall that you are of an age, Art, that puts you in the position of having seen most of the last half century's changes, whereas I have seen less...so "we" is relative and dependant on one's social "wiring", I think.

As for perceived effects from my perspective...I think women my age are generally more confident and self-assured than those ten years their senior.

I think those ten years my junior are generally insecure and less self-assured, comparitively speaking, which I don't understand.

But in terms of BDSM, I've noticed that women who were born after 1970 or so seem to be into D/s, for example , in far greater numbers than my contemporaries born in the previous decade.

Just my observations.

Cheers
Lance

Well LC, I am older than you, and I hardly ever meet younger (or older for that matter) women with more self-assurance than I have. But I am unique. I am also black too and that has a lot of do with my self-assurance. If I had not had it, I would not be where I am today.

Ebony <just my opinion>

 

[Persephone36]

I have to say -- I honestly don't *quite* see the correlations you're trying to make, Art. I'm not trying to be disrespectful of the topic you're raising -- but to me, it's a couple of different issues that don't all together track together.

Here's my take on what's missing. I don't think the place of women in society today enormously impacts the bdsm community *now* -- say out of proportion to just the sexual revolution in general and the gay movement. Add the equal rights movement to those and then add on the technical revolution -- and I think that's opened up *everyone* to having greater access to the world of bdsm.

So, no -- maybe one could socialogically look at the bdsm community and suss out the impact of the women's movement more easily I would think 20 years ago. It would certainly make for an interesting study from an academic point of view. But now -- I think you're seeing a greater impact because of the dissemination of information over the Internet.

After all, before the Internet -- you couldn't have a virtual D/s relationship. Or maybe people did through the mail, lol, but I would have thought it was a much smaller group then trying to find each other.

So historically, you're seeing the effects now -- at least in this country and a number of others that have a similar societal structure -- of 35 years of the equal right's movement, the women's movement, the sexual revolution, the gay/lesbian/bi movement -- and NOW the technical revolution.

It's the rolling together of all of these. Because I think this group -- the bdsm community is the last to be vocal about being recognized. I remember reading that somewhere and it struck me as so true -- this is still the last group in some ways that doesn't announce itself and stand proud, so to speak. It's still the group -- what a "normal" society might call the sexually deviant minority that are more unacceptable, threatening and feared and therefore, still one of the most hidden.

I think though -- that the Internet and the technical revolution is having the greatest impact on bringing the bdsm community together as a whole.

And thus -- simply bringing more people together to share in the lifestyle.

Which is perhaps the kernal of what you were getting at?

But can you pick out the women's movement separately and see the impact -- well, how do you psychologically pull that out -- because it's something that's been effecting all of us, men and women in this country for decades.

And that's not to even touch on the fact that we had women's suffrage long before the women's movement. And before that the movement to give women an equal education...and so forth...

Just to separately address the women gathering more in groups -- that doesn't really ring true to me. Women have historically always gathered in groups -- as have men. In many instances in the distant past -- it was at the men's insistance. Now, if it's about women gathering together in groups to assert their independence from men? Well, that's kind of old hat to me. And I don't think it's true as the impetus for women seeking out women's company or community. Any more so then I think men do the same.

I'll give you my personal example, I went to an all-woman's college here in the US. One of the last original of the "Seven Sister Schools" Now my college was founded on the principle in the late 1800's that women's minds were as equally worthy to be educated as men's. That women should have the same access as men to higher education.

Now, lol, this is hardly a radical idea in the United States anymore, right? And women don't go to college in order to become independent of men. Women go to school, or do whatever they chose to do in life for a variety of reasons. It's just a given nowadays. After all -- Law schools in the US produce more female graduates now than male. *That's* a revolution in the last 30 years. But it's also now become in the last 10 years -- accepted. At least for my generation. In my father's (he's in his 70's and was a partner in a large law firm) it's still something that surprises some of them, lol. I know -- I've spoken to his friends.

People socialize -- they always have. We've as a race always broken apart at different times into our separate gender groups and then come together again as a gender mixed society. On a daily basis -- throughout history.

I believe, now, we more frequently look at it as *each* human follows his own path to discover him or her self in life.

Or perhaps I see it that way because I personally was raised and educated (and influenced by my generation) to think of myself as equal to any other human being -- not just man or woman.

I think we're simply lucky we're living in an age where liberties and freedoms keep expanding in our country. At least, I would like to think so. And I think the technical revolution continues to help that along. But it's still something that can't be taken for granted -- personal liberty. It's important to me as an issue that I feel personally it's something worth fighting for, putting myself more to use for.

How's that Art, as my personal viewpoint? Perhaps didn't really answer what you were looking for?

P.

 

[artful]

ADR-Lance-Sis-Perse

Thanks for posting on this thread. I hope many others do also. I am not speaking of individual women,...but as a COLLECTIVE segment of our society, wherein their *CHOICES* as to how to proceed in pursueing what they WANT to do with their lives.

Individually,...there have been MANY women who lead successful lives, who have not been confused by the more available choices.

Whether it be raising a family, business, careers,
etc., or any combination thereof.

General Lee speaking,...I think there is an ABUNDANCE of confusion, but those who ARE confused won't step forward to post on this issue.

Thanks again to all!

EDITED: To add Perse at the top.

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: General Lee Speaking

My first reaction is that there is no correlation between women's "advances" in society and social women's groups.

I would suggest that women have always socialized in all-female groups...church groups, neighborhood coffee klatches, service organizations, etc.

More all-female group choices exist for socialization and they are more integrated with what was male society...health clubs and the other interest groups you mentioned...but women have always socialized in groups as have men, I would suggest.

In terms of the general psyche of a woman in 2002 versus say a half century ago in 1952, I would think it is fair to say that women are indeed taking part in a wider variety of socialization and employment streams in society.

Your last line asks how all of this affects what "We" know as BDSM.

I seem to recall that you are of an age, Art, that puts you in the position of having seen most of the last half century's changes, whereas I have seen less...so "we" is relative and dependant on one's social "wiring", I think.

As for perceived effects from my perspective...I think women my age are generally more confident and self-assured than those ten years their senior.

I think those ten years my junior are generally insecure and less self-assured, comparitively speaking, which I don't understand.

But in terms of BDSM, I've noticed that women who were born after 1970 or so seem to be into D/s, for example , in far greater numbers than my contemporaries born in the previous decade.

Just my observations.

Cheers
Lance

But you dont know if they are more into it or if the older women just are more of the mind to keep quiet about it.

 

[MzChrista]

Women always gathered in groups but nowdays we french kiss more when we do.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Re: General Lee Speaking

But you dont know if they are more into it or if the older women just are more of the mind to keep quiet about it.

Oh, I think there are a thousand variables in play here, so I started with my general observations, fully expecting to hear other points of view.

What are yours?

Lance

 

[MzChrista]

Re: Re: Re: Re: General Lee Speaking

Oh, I think there are a thousand variables in play here, so I started with my general observations, fully expecting to hear other points of view.

What are yours?

Lance

I think the role of women is changing in ways it never has before and there is no way to tell where it can lead. One of the things it has done is all this experimentation in sexuality. If there was no equality there wouldnt be no BDSM as we have it now cause there would be no consent to it.
But BDSM world is actually a very conservative place many ways . some male doms are in it because they really think women are below them. Thats not man bashing Im just saying some.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: General Lee Speaking

I think the role of women is changing in ways it never has before and there is no way to tell where it can lead. One of the things it has done is all this experimentation in sexuality. If there was no equality there wouldnt be no BDSM as we have it now cause there would be no consent to it.
But BDSM world is actually a very conservative place many ways . some male doms are in it because they really think women are below them. Thats not man bashing Im just saying some.

I agree with you MzC. I have found that there are some male Doms do hold women in low esteem. And if that is man bashing, I have to eat any words I may have said in the past cause it is true. I started in BDSM as a sub, and I have seen it first hand.

Eb

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: General Lee Speaking

1. But BDSM world is actually a very conservative place many ways .

2.some male doms are in it because they really think women are below them. Thats not man bashing Im just saying some.

1. Agreed.

2. Also agreed. Not my thing, but I see it.

Lance

 

[artful]

Thanks all,...

...in my unorganised start of this thread, there ARE many issues to dicuss,...and I thank you all for the participation already given.

Hopefully,...more will post,...and SOME of the OTHER related issues can be discussed.

On the whole,...let me add,...I think MANY men are confused by this MAJOR change sweeping worldwide, and it's more difficult for men to let go of older traditional ways.

I see many changes in BDSM concepts. TWO points being,...subs are MORE particular, and MORE aggressive in their search for the *RIGHT~*Dom/me!

(Whaddya think?)

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: General Lee Speaking

Well LC, I am older than you, and I hardly ever meet younger (or older for that matter) women with more self-assurance than I have. But I am unique. I am also black too and that has a lot of do with my self-assurance. If I had not had it, I would not be where I am today.

Ebony <just my opinion>

I agree with Ebony and am finding that altho I am an older woman than what Lance is used to,lol I AM QUITE SELF-ASSURED IN MY OWN IDEAS AND MY OWN WAYS OF DOING THINGS BUT BEING AS TOTALLY SUBMISSIVE AS I CHOOSE to be,I find that My ways are NOT the best ways ,however belonging to different women's groups over the years ,it has given me fresh new perspectives on how all my women friends were treated by their male counterparts..and sadly to say ,I was NOT very impressed..I am finding that as time goes on thjo ,Men are becoming again more compassionate,which to me as a slave.is a very GOOD thing..

 

[Shadowsdream]

searching in particular..

I think fem subs have learned to search with common sense and self respect rather than desperation and awe.

WHY

Because they have been taught from birth that there is more to life than a picket fence and a man's paycheck. They understand that they have no obligation to feel grateful for the attention anyone gives them as their value comes from who they are not what anyone thinks they should be.

 

[~Dream~]

My search is over

searching in particular..

I think fem subs have learned to search with common sense and self respect rather than desperation and awe.

WHY

Because they have been taught from birth that there is more to life than a picket fence and a man's paycheck. They understand that they have no obligation to feel grateful for the attention anyone gives them as their value comes from who they are not what anyone thinks they should be.

I COULDNT AGREE WITH yOU MORE,Shadow,wow!! I mean just thinking You need someone to validate who You are is sooo wrong because I WILL STILL BE MYSELF REGARDLESS OF WHETHER my Master had chosen me or not but to put it as good as I possibly can..Knowing He accepts all of me as I am and loves me unconditionally,just rocks my whole world..I TRULY Love being so appreciated by my Master and I wouldnt trade places with anyone right now..

 

[kate8417]

LMAO at MzChrista's two cents!!!

We(women) have been taught that we are supposed to have--and want--it all. Personally, I don't, but that is accompanied by a little feminist guilt.

D/s is an outlet in which I can be submissive--where I don't have to be the ball-busting corporate shark. It's nice.

I could expound a great deal more, but in a nutshell, I feel that this is at least part of the reason there are more subs these days.

Happy Day!

 

[Guest]

Amen!

searching in particular..

I think fem subs have learned to search with common sense and self respect rather than desperation and awe.

WHY

Because they have been taught from birth that there is more to life than a picket fence and a man's paycheck. They understand that they have no obligation to feel grateful for the attention anyone gives them as their value comes from who they are not what anyone thinks they should be.

Preach it, sister!

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Amen!

Preach it, sister!

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Amen!

See what happens when you post at 2:30 am?

Eb

 

[artful]

Sis

See what happens when you post at 2:30 am?

Eb

Yeah,...and just think,...if ya lived back in L.A.,...it wouldn't even be midnight !-LOL

 

[SexyChele]

Not sure what the point really is here.

I think you are probably seeing more subs in general, yes. Why? Because BDSM has come more out of the closet. As little as 15 years ago, most BDSM activities would land you in jail. Now, it is a little more accepting by the community.

Also, I think you see younger women getting into it because they think that the kinky aspects make them more appealing to men - in my opinion. I doubt many of them truly understand the dynamics, but I could be wrong.

Being submissive is part of one's nature. Letting that out and living it to the fullest takes time. It's not something that can happen overnight or within a few days. When I look around at communities, I see many young women questioning, but it is older women who have been with this lifestyle for years - decades in most cases. And many of them will tell you when they started out, they had to do their activities behind locked, closed doors, and tell no one.

I think I may have lost sight of the purpose, but I did state I didn't truly understand, so....

 

[artful]

No specific topic,...

...just a General discussion of how the role shift in our society has affected BDSM relationships.

 

[Sandia]

Art, I really thought this was going to be about General Lee.

I was disappointed.

I don't know how much I have to add to the discussion, but I'll do my best.

I don't know that the desire for sexual submission is so foreign to most women; I think it's something many women feel.

Feminism has perhaps created a sense of guilt about this.

I don't think, though, that the connection between sexual submission and submission in other aspects of life is natural or inevitable. Some may want to be submissive in other aspects of life, other may not.

I do think it's important to get what you want in bed, regardless of what exactly that is.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Artful- "Thanks for posting on this thread. I hope many others do also. I am not speaking of individual women,...but as a COLLECTIVE segment of our society, wherein their *CHOICES* as to how to proceed in pursueing what they WANT to do with their lives.

Individually,...there have been MANY women who lead successful lives, who have not been confused by the more available choices.

General Lee speaking,...I think there is an ABUNDANCE of confusion, but those who ARE confused won't step forward to post on this issue."

______________________________

And I was speaking as an individual woman, (myself) who I think is not alot different from many other women. I was only using myself as an example because I know most about ME.
I agree that there is an abundance of confusion and that those who are bewildered won't be posting here.