Gender Equality

[elsol]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/cereta/189901.html

It was discussed on MSNBC as making noise... so I figured I'd let it make noise here.

I agree on some points... disagree on a couple.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[BlackShanglan]

Speaking purely as an epicene equine, my chief complaint is not with whether people do or support "guy" or "girl" things, but with the whole tedious categorization of things other than genetalia and secondary sexual characteristics as inherently male or female. It is, to some of us, exceedingly annoying. The concept that pursuits like flower arranging, hockey, cooking, or car repair could have an inherent gender is really quite silly.

Shanglan

 

[Alex756]

I think it is wrong.

I also grew up with mostly male friends, how many girls play tabletop battletech, seriously?

However, we didn't break out who could do what based on gender. I was just as invited to go to a strip club with everyone as they were invited to go to see a musical when I decided I wanted to go. Know what? I went to strip clubs and a few of 'the guys' came with to the musical. IN fact one of the guys that normally ran most of our games ended up loving my hair stylist so much he started going to him regularly.

To say someone can't do something because they are the wrong gender is just as wrong if it is someone telling a girl they can't take trig or a guy that he can't take home ec. I know I can calculate the height of a flag pole a heck of alot better than I can cook

~Alex

 

[Liar]

I agree on some points... disagree on a couple.

Yeah.

Why has this one made such a buzz? Can't see that it says anything revolutionary. It takes a few debateable things as granted (like most debators do) and makes a decent argument from them on a comfortably vauge gender balance theme.

But I read it twice, and I still can't extract the thesis. What - specifically - is her message?

 

[SeaCat]

Bah, what a load of crap. You are human, I am human. Therefore we are equal.

Cat

(Yeah I know, you can carry a baby to term and I can't. I can impregnate a woman with the use of surgical instruments and you can't. Big effing deal. We piss, we shit, we fart and belch. More importantly we love and need to be loved. We are equal.)

 

[Speedbumps]

Bah, what a load of crap. You are human, I am human. Therefore we are equal.

Cat

(Yeah I know, you can carry a baby to term and I can't. I can impregnate a woman with the use of surgical instruments and you can't. Big effing deal. We piss, we shit, we fart and belch. More importantly we love and need to be loved. We are equal.)

Exactly.

Now explain to me why so many erotic markets are women authors only

 

[Recidiva]

Exactly.

Now explain to me why so many erotic markets are women authors only

Because women can get into other women's heads and women read.

 

[Speedbumps]

Because women can get into other women's heads and women read.

Refuse to publish my crap because it is crap. Not because I have a penis.

 

[Recidiva]

Refuse to publish my crap because it is crap. Not because I have a penis.

Fine. I refuse to publish your crap because it is crap. Happy?

 

[Liar]

Because women can get into other women's heads and women read.

Or maybe:

Because many women readers don't trust that a man can get into womens' heads, so they won't read male authors.

(flame away)

 

[Speedbumps]

Fine. I refuse to publish your crap because it is crap. Happy?

LOL thank you

 

[Speedbumps]

Or maybe:

Because many women readers don't trust that a man can get into womens' heads, so they won't read male authors.

(flame away)

whatever happened to equal opportunity?

Not like it is hard to represent yourself as a female anyway. It is just an annoyance

 

[Alex756]

Or maybe:

Because many women readers don't trust that a man can get into womens' heads, so they won't read male authors.

(flame away)

Which is the same reason horror writers who are female tend to use male names gender bias in the genre.

This is general, not everyone, but there is a lot of them, If anyone cares, I posted in the horror forum in NaNo with some interesting articles written by female authors.

~Alex -- who did shock more than 1 person showing up at her NaNo meeting in heels , HOrror writer, Alex, put 2 and 2 together

 

[Recidiva]

Or maybe:

Because many women readers don't trust that a man can get into womens' heads, so they won't read male authors.

(flame away)

I don't feel that way at all. Many men have left me very stimulated.

But when I write stuff the women say "Yes, loved it!" and the guys say "Uh...hm. Don't get it"

So that's my feedback.

Guys don't often like to read my stuff, so that's what I hear. Women do, more often than not.

So maybe women are just nice to me.

My favorite romance authors were in fact a male/female team.

But I write stuff for me because I like stuff tailored to what I like to read.

I don't actually care who writes it, I care about what's written.

 

[Liar]

whatever happened to equal opportunity?

Not like it is hard to represent yourself as a female anyway. It is just an annoyance

In a case like that, it is irrelevant. If the readers (the consumer) for whatever reason want stories written by women, the publisher (the seller) will provide that.

 

[Liar]

I don't actually care who writes it, I care about what's written.

Good for you. That's why I didn't write "all women".

 

[Speedbumps]

In a case like that, it is irrelevant. If the readers (the consumer) for whatever reason want stories written by women, the publisher (the seller) will provide that.

But mags asking for only male authors or only hetero authors would get flamed to peices.

Women's erotica as a style I have no problem with.

I just think men are perfectly capable of writing in that style.

 

[Recidiva]

But mags asking for only male authors or only hetero authors would get flamed to peices.

Women's erotica as a style I have no problem with.

I just think men are perfectly capable of writing in that style.

Hell yeah.

Men have told me things I wanted I didn't even know I wanted 'till they told me.

Then I was on board!

 

[Liar]

Which is the same reason horror writers who are female tend to use male names gender bias in the genre.

Exactly. Gender bias goes both ways, and it's not something that policy desicions will change quickly enough for commersial interrests to dare gamble it..

~Alex -- who did shock more than 1 person showing up at her NaNo meeting in heels , HOrror writer, Alex, put 2 and 2 together

Hey, I can respect a bloke in pumps.

 

[Liar]

But mags asking for only male authors or only hetero authors would get flamed to peices.

Yep .For some reason more politically correct to do that. And I think that's silly too.

Actually, on the first level, asking for male of female authors is silly. Because it doesn't matter to the story written.

And on the second level, getting terribly upset when someone asks for male of female authors, is also silly. Because really, who died?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, here's what I posted;
Many, MANY years ago, i was a punk rocker, with my own band and everything. And back in those days, I heard Debby Harry say something like "I couldn't have been successful in my teens or twenties. I had to be old enough (experienced enough) to control the kind of energy that men musicians put out. Otherwise, a woman in front has no control over her music."

I found the same thing. When I wanted the guys to change something, for compositional reasons, they would say "yeah, sure, princess" and not do it. When my husband asked, they would take the request seriously enough to try it.
He said- it was just the way musicians are.
But I saw- the difference in attitude, between the way they received his ideas and the way they received mine.

What I am trying to say here, I suppose, is that the sense of separation hurts. I hated being called "princess". I also really, really hated overhearing the guys talking- about "she", "her" It wasn't necessarily me they were talking about, and it was as likely to be complimenatry as not. But the pronouns were referring to someone separate from them, someone apart by reason of her gender. As I was.

Sorry, Lord Gribeau (Great handle, BTW) it happens to us all.
It takes a lot of spunk to put yourself, day in and day out, in a space where you are the minority. If I'm the only white amongst my black friends, I can find myself feeling alone suddenly. When I travelled extensively in Europe- back in the seventies- I would get harangued once in a while, as if I were the entire U.S.A. If you were to include yourself as a single father at a playground full of moms, you'd feel the same way you do now, simply because of the numbers.

 

[Speedbumps]

Well, here's what I posted;
Many, MANY years ago, i was a punk rocker, with my own band and everything. And back in those days, I heard Debby Harry say something like "I couldn't have been successful in my teens or twenties. I had to be old enough (experienced enough) to control the kind of energy that men musicians put out. Otherwise, a woman in front has no control over her music."

I found the same thing. When I wanted the guys to change something, for compositional reasons, they would say "yeah, sure, princess" and not do it. When my husband asked, they would take the request seriously enough to try it.
He said- it was just the way musicians are.
But I saw- the difference in attitude, between the way they received his ideas and the way they received mine.

What I am trying to say here, I suppose, is that the sense of separation hurts. I hated being called "princess". I also really, really hated overhearing the guys talking- about "she", "her" It wasn't necessarily me they were talking about, and it was as likely to be complimenatry as not. But the pronouns were referring to someone separate from them, someone apart by reason of her gender. As I was.

Sorry, Lord Gribeau (Great handle, BTW) it happens to us all.
It takes a lot of spunk to put yourself, day in and day out, in a space where you are the minority. If I'm the only white amongst my black friends, I can find myself feeling alone suddenly. When I travelled extensively in Europe- back in the seventies- I would get harangued once in a while, as if I were the entire U.S.A. If you were to include yourself as a single father at a playground full of moms, you'd feel the same way you do now, simply because of the numbers.

Actually being the single father at a playground full of moms can be quite educational

 

[SeaCat]

Exactly.

Now explain to me why so many erotic markets are women authors only

I couldn't even begin to tell you. Mainly because I have no idea.

Cat

 

[Liar]

I couldn't even begin to tell you. Mainly because I have no idea.

Yeah that's a good reason.



I want the Gosling here. I wanna hear what she has to say about gander equality.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

The concept that pursuits like flower arranging, hockey, cooking, or car repair could have an inherent gender is really quite silly.

crawling out onto the skinny branches here... <ahem>

I think assigning these kinds of things to a GENDER... is actually more than silly, it's hurtful.

But I do believe that assigning certain qualities to the masculine or feminine is not only helpful, but fairly inherent, and even necessary...

I'm NOT necessarily talking about gender alone here, again, I reiterate... we all have masculine and feminine energies in us. I guess it's fairly Platonic (or neo-Platonic) in theory... that there are archetypal energies in the universe, and masculine is one of those, and so is feminine... so I wouldn't say that "flower arranging" is just for girls... what I WOULD say is that beauty falls into the realm of the feminine (in BOTH genders.) While I wouldn't say that hockey is just for boys... I would say that competition and challenge fall into the realm of the masculine (in BOTH genders.) Make sense?

And I do so wonder what the horsie has to say about this...