Gender bias in genital terms?

[Gary Chambers]

I thought I posted this somewhere, but I can't find it and I was so damned tired when I did it that I may have deleted it instead, so here it is again.

After my first Literotica story, Shayden's Tower, was online I alerted my friends in another online writer's group I've belonged to since about 1994. One of the members there read the story and observed that I generally use clinical terms like penis or member for the male genitalia, but vernacular like pussy for the female. Checking into this a bit further I read a piece by erotic romance author Robin Schone and found she does the same in reverse.

So my questions are: are we dealing with a serious and common gender bias here that both men and women are guilty of; are such word choices really offensive and should we be counting clinical and slang terms to make sure they are balanced in number between male and female characters?

The frustrating thing is that I actually prefer vagina over most other worsd for the female organ, because I like the soft consonants and round vowel sounds of the Latin term. It has a richer and more romantic or exotic sound than cunt or box, so it's odd that I wouldn't use vagina more often than I do.

 

[pop_54]

Hmmmmm

Penis, Pussy, Vagina, ejaculate, semen, stuff like that is Ok for public consumption in paperbacks or medical journals.

But I'm awfully afraid it has to be: Prick/Cock, Cunt/Twat, Cum/Shoot, Spunk/Cream and so forth to get you many votes on an internet erotic site. They aint all intellectuals reading here.

Shame ennit.

pops.................

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Ever since I've been writing porn I've noticed that there are a lot more words for male parts than female parts, and, what's worse, there are few words for female parts that aren't subtly or not-so-subtly demeaning.

While a lot of words for the penis are kind of frivolous, we still have cock, prick, tool, etc., which are pretty serious words. For vagina we have what? Pussy, which is probably the best of the bunch and therefore grievously overused, then cunt, twat, snatch, box, and other words that have a kind of sniggery school-boy feel to them. I'll use the P- and, less frequently, the C-word, but I can't bring myself to use the others. Because of this I find myself waxing more euphemistic when it comes to describing female body parts.

The situation's pretty much the same when it comes to breasts. There are tons of words for breasts but they're all frivolous words, and it just kind of ruins the tone of a story to have to resort to talking about the heroine's jugs, hooters, or bazongas.

No doubt this disparity in descriptive language came about because men invent most of the slang words and have been reluctant to accord a woman's body the respect it deserves, but it's a sorry state of affairs. We need more words.

---dr.M.

 

[MathGirl]

We need more words.

Dear Dr M,
I'm doing my part with the daily vocabulary improvement list. Let us not forget, though, that YOU started all that.
Lexicographically,
MG

 

[Gary Chambers]

Thanks Pop and thanks Doc too. I wasn't terribly concerned about the discrimination issue, because I think I once I've posted a few more stories I could make a good case that I don't harbour a nasty gender bias, just by quoting myself. This was more a technical question and between the two of you I think you've answered it admirably. The summation is then, that the strokers want the raw terminology, so giving them something else is just defying the reader, and there isn't a lot more to give them anyway the language not being rich enough in vaginal vernacular.

On the latter observation, it's worth noting that one of those I correspond with in the other group is a British romance novelist. She points out that the brick and mortar of romance is purple prose. Like or loathe that style it would at least offer lots of opportunities for creative metaphors and euphamisms when describing vaginas. The reason I feel it's worth noting is that the lady concerned and I are agreed that the romance and erotica genres are merging. I doubt whether they will homogenise totally into one, but there is more graphc sex in romances all the time, and some smut peddlars myself included, are inclined to introduce more romance into their erotica too. I think that's why so many periodical markets for erotica have dried up. It's not just because they want more room for pussy pix, but also because the publishers believe erotica writers are too highbrow for their readers, which underlines Pop's point once gain.

 

[Jenny _S]

He rammed his throbbing schlong deep into her dripping twat.

Yeah... that kinda sucks, don't it.

 

[OldnotDead]

He rammed his throbbing schlong deep into her dripping twat.

Yeah... that kinda sucks, don't it.

No, Jenny, it would only suck if it were . . .

He thrusted his turgid tool deep beyond her luscious lips until he could see her alabaster sheathed throat stretching open.

Yours simply fucks.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

I personally don't think that "cunt" is a derogatory term
applied to a cunt. (Applied to a person, it is definitely
derogatory.)
I'm fairly content with terms which have been labeled
"medical" here. My characters tend to be reasonably
educated people, not longshoremen. I'll use "vulva" or
"phallus." There is nothing wrong with "vagina" used to
describe the *vagina,* the tube which leads from a woman's
cervix to her labia; when it is used to describe the labia,
I find it worse than "twat."

 

[Guest]

Just to let people know that other languages seem to be more facilie with words and phrases for sexual names and terms. I can only speak for Spanish as spoken by Mexicans, but this site: repisas y conchas is useful when researching one's erotic roots. Here are some samples. I love to say these words aloud, privately of course.

Perdita

agarraderas (noun, fem., plural.) tits. This term is derived from agarrar (verb, trans.). Thus, this actually means "things to grab". (Mexican slang)
alimentos (noun, masc., plural.) tits. Literally, this word means "food allowance" or "alimony". (Mexican slang)
almeja (noun) cunt (direct translation= clam). A very strong word. DO NOT say it to a lady! Used in phrases such as : "le comi la almeja" which means "I licked her cunt"
arrima tu prima fuck the hell out of your cousin. these are cool words around gentleman
bacalao (noun, masc.) cunt. (lit) codfish; (Mexican slang)
bajar al pozo to eat pussy. Cuban usage. Ex: A Pedro le gusta bajar al pozo. Translation: Pete likes to eat pussy.
buscar flete to hunt for pussy, go looking for a piece of ass. Cuban slang. Example: Oye chico, vamos a salir a buscar flete por ahi. Translation: Hey man, let's go out and look for some ass.
chacon (noun, fem) cunt. This come from the Argentinian lunfardo (slang) where many words are inverted by sillabes. So the original is concha. La chacon de tu madre should be read as La concha de tu madre (Your mother's cunt)
chichis (noun) Tits. Used to talk about "large" women. You know what I mean.
chocho (adj. masc.) cunt. Has the same meanings in Spain as in Mexico. Can be used as verb: "chochear", meaning that you are senile; rude for people over 50 Ex. "Este tio chochea"
chucha cuerera (noun, fem.) (adj., fem.) slut; a very sexually experienced female (Mexican slang)
concha (fem. noun) cunt. Uruguayan slang. La concha de tu madre (your mom's cunt) is a strong insult. La concha tuya (your cunt). Conchita (diminutive), Concha Peluda (hairy cunt) are other common uses of the word.
coño (noun, masc.) cunt. May be used as an interjection meaning surprise, annoyance, or physical pain.
crica pussy. Used mostly in Puerto Rico.
hacer la sopa (verb) to perform oral sex to a woman, to lick a woman´s pussy (fig.) Literally means " to make a soup" . Example : Te voy a hacer la sopa ( I am going to suck your pussy)
mamey cunt. It is pronounced "MAH-may". (Mexican Spanish)
manchas (noun, fem. plural) tits. Its other meaning is "spot" or "stain". It might not be wise to use this as an interjection since it also means "wet paint!". (Mexican Spanish)
nido (noun, masc.) cunt. (lit) nest or hiding place; (Mexican slang)
panocha, la cunt (female genitalia) [panotSa] literally "sweetbread". Mexican dialect
raja (noun, fem.) slit (literally), cunt (fig.)
repisas (noun, fem., plural) tits (lit) shelves; (Mexican slang)

 

[MathGirl]

Originally posted by Jenny _S He rammed his throbbing schlong deep into her dripping twat.

Dear Jen,
I would appreciate your giving a proper reference when quoting from one of my stories.
MG
Ps. My art is not to be defiled.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I personally don't think that "cunt" is a derogatory term
applied to a cunt. (Applied to a person, it is definitely
derogatory.)

It's not the fact that the word has derogatory connotations that makes me avoid it. It's the sound of the word: blunt, brutal, and ugly. Almost the direct opposite of what I think of when I think of the object it refers to. It gives a certain tone to a piece of writing, one which I personally don't like or use much, though on occasion I do want the aural punch the word conveys.

I strongly disagree that people looking for stroke porn prefer this kind of shock language. You can write first-class, highly volcanic porn without dipping into the scumbone/slopslit bag.

---dr.M.

 

[Quasimodem]

. . . My art is not to be defiled.

Very true!

Once filed, no one should ever disturb it.


Also, be careful if you try to use archaic terminology, some terms do not mean what you might think they mean.

For example, from the late 18th, early 19th centuries: to "hunt the squirrel" does not mean what it sounds like.

Rather, it is a pastime in which any gentleman could participate, whilst driving his curricle or phaeton.

 

[gauchecritic]

Conversely, it is possible that an author who believes they have small choice, in descriptive words for male genatalia (or female) may not be particlularly fond or receptive to those genitals, for whatever reason.

I'm pretty sure that gay story writers have plenty of words for penis.

As for psychological use of genital terms ask Perdita about King Lear's description for female parts. Can hardly remember any, but it's a beauty and explains Lears torment and dilemma for the rest of the play.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

... ask Perdita about King Lear's description for female parts.

Thank you very much, Gloucester, uh, Gouache, um, Gauche. I will return.

Perdita

 

[5extant]

Inis beag - a rural irish community in the most conservative part of the country, believed to be one of the most sexually restrictive societies in the world. A rigid form of Catholicism is practised, and children are raised in total ignorance of sex, and are sexually segregated at an early age. Masturbation and mutual body exploration are severly punished, and nudity, even during marital intercourse, is taboo. Courting, premarital intercourse, and expressions of affection are unknown. Sexual advances are entirely the man's prerogative, and the purpose of marriage is solely economic and reproductive.

The Wordworth Dictionary of Sex "The indespensible guide to the terminology of sexual practice from science to slang".

This reference has a few interesting entries concerning slang terms. Although I think there must be more specific references for sexual- slang hopefully including etymology etc.

I was wondering how some one from Inis Beag would descibe genitalia if forced 2

 

[5extant]

Inis beag - a rural irish community in the most conservative part of the country, believed to be one of the most sexually restrictive societies in the world. A rigid form of Catholicism is practised, and children are raised in total ignorance of sex, and are sexually segregated at an early age. Masturbation and mutual body exploration are severly punished, and nudity, even during marital intercourse, is taboo. Courting, premarital intercourse, and expressions of affection are unknown. Sexual advances are entirely the man's prerogative, and the purpose of marriage is solely economic and reproductive.

The Wordworth Dictionary of Sex "The indespensible guide to the terminology of sexual practice from science to slang".

This reference has a few interesting entries concerning slang terms. Although I think there must be more specific references for sexual- slang hopefully including etymology etc.

I was wondering how some one from Inis Beag would descibe genitalia if forced 2

 

[Guest]

There is a well known book called Shakespeare’s Bawdy, and much written on his use of sexual expletives, however poetic they sound to our modern ears. Gauche assigned the bawdiness of “King Lear” to me, but it is my favorite play and so a task of pleasure to recall. Beginning near the end of Act IV (scene vi, 120-133; Arden ed.), Lear in his madness speaks of the two daughters, Goneril and Regan, who betrayed him. In this state, and outdoors since the earlier storm, the old king is very much in concert with nature at its most elemental and violent. Here are excerpts relevant to the flavor of this thread.

. . . Behold yond sim’ring dame,
Whose face between her forks presages snow;
That minces virtue, and does shake the head
To hear of pleasure’s name;
The fitchew nor the soiled horse goes to’t
With a more riotous appetite.
Down from the waist they are Centaurs,
Though women all above:
But to the girdle do the Gods inherit,
Beneath is all the fiend’s: there’s hell, there’s darkness,
There is the sulphurous pit—burning, scalding,
Stench, consumption; fie, fie, fie! pah, pah!
Give me an ounce of civet, good apothecary,
To sweeten my imagination.

fitchew: pole-cat; prostitute.
soiled: wanton
re. girdle: certain Christians professed that man was made in God’s image only above the waist (girdle); below he was owned by the devil.
civet: key ingredient (still) for perfume; cat piss (really)

Not quite as fitting this thread as Gauche thought, but I’m not throwing this away. To insinuate that a daughter’s cunt (her sexuality, her humanity) is a pit of hell is a fucking fine metaphor if not euphemism.

Perdita

 

[gauchecritic]

Conversely, it is possible that an author who believes they have small choice, in descriptive words for male genatalia (or female) may not be particlularly fond or receptive to those genitals, for whatever reason.

I'm pretty sure that gay story writers have plenty of words for penis.

Just quoting myself so as to ensure the 'fittingness' of the post.

Original question:

are we dealing with a serious and common gender bias here that both men and women are guilty of(?)

Gauche

 

[Guest]

Gauche, did you just give yourself a kiss? You're confusing me.

chastely, Perdita

 

[Gary Chambers]

Now you all have me thinking. Somewhere in the boxes of books that live in the garden shed, my collection having spilled out of the house, I have a book called the Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue. As I recall, it was rich in slang terms for genitalia and particular types of people such as prostitutes, bartenders, cops and clergy. All the terms were archaic, but many could be revived if used in a clear context.

But it wasn’t the genital terms that remain in my memory from that book, rather a phrase: “admiral of the narrow seas.” This term had no sexual connotation, but originated in the days of sail when sailors would eat their meals in long narrow galleys, virtually sitting nose to nose in front of each other. An admiral of the narrow seas is a shipmate so thoughtless and undesirable that he would get sea sick and vomit in your gruel.

I often use this to insult people much larger than myself, and so far have received no worse reaction than an open jaw and vacant glare.

 

[5extant]

Now you all have me thinking. Somewhere in the boxes of books that live in the garden shed, my collection having spilled out of the house, I have a book called the Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue. As I recall, it was rich in slang terms for genitalia and particular types of people such as prostitutes, bartenders, cops and clergy. All the terms were archaic, but many could be revived if used in a clear context.

But it wasn’t the genital terms that remain in my memory from that book, rather a phrase: “admiral of the narrow seas.” This term had no sexual connotation, but originated in the days of sail when sailors would eat their meals in long narrow galleys, virtually sitting nose to nose in front of each other. An admiral of the narrow seas is a shipmate so thoughtless and undesirable that he would get sea sick and vomit in your gruel.

I often use this to insult people much larger than myself, and so far have received no worse reaction than an open jaw and vacant glare.

{A of waves 3 of dollars} perhaps it be a key

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Now you all have me thinking. Somewhere in the boxes of books that live in the garden shed, my collection having spilled out of the house, I have a book called the Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue.

This one's fun:

http://www.viz.co.uk/profanisaurus/profanis.htm

I can't rememeber who first posted it, but even though it's very British and often contrived, it's still funny and the best I've found so far.

---dr.M.

 

[MathGirl]

This one's fun:http://www.viz.co.uk/profanisaurus/profanis.htm
I can't rememeber who first posted it,

Dear Dr M,
You did, you idiot. That's where you got me started on all those disgusting things I've been posting in that other thread.
Good grief,
MG

 

[OldnotDead]

Dear Dr M,
You did, you idiot. That's where you got me started on all those disgusting things I've been posting in that other thread.
Good grief,
MG

The penultimate spam is when your receive and then forward a chain letter that you started.

Now it's in three threads, Doc M.

 

[sweetnpetite]

This *is* a fascination topic.

However, I am of the oppinion that most authors of Porn and Erotica should concern themselves less with body part words, and more with words in general. there's more to wring smut after all than dirty worlds.

How many times do you want to read;

he thrust in and out

te touched her _______ he touched her______ and he touched her on the ________

no matter what words you put in those blanks, it's still bad writing.

I would say most on the AH don't write this kind of drivel, but you will find quite a bit of it here on lit and elsewhere. And often from people who think that they are very good writers.

Personally, I find no fault with cunt, pussy vagina, sperm, spunk, penis, phallus, cock, dick or any other- I like them all

What I don't like is when people say "fuck and suck" in a story. (Its fine for a description or even a title, but not for exposition) and when the total overuse of the clit. You can't go straight to the clit all the time and ignore the rest of the cunt/pussy/vagina/labia! Thise two things will yank me right out of the story.

As I said, I think medical terms are fine, so long as they are used correctly. You can't see sperm- but you can see seminal fluid. So you can say, "she was covered in sperm" I guess but you can't say, "he could see his sperm all over her body. Nit picky of me maybe, but a sticking point nontheless.