Gays/Lesbians - Committed relationships and marriage

[privyjo]

Please forgive me if I am duplicating a previous thread (I looked but didn't see one but could have missed it) but I have been wondering about a few things concerning relationships among gays and lesbians.

Have been keeping up with the news on the status of marriage for gays and lesbians in various states (my state is to vote on a marriage amendment this November) - and oh, at the national level also! Has me wondering several things and thought I would throw out my wonderings to others to see what other people are wondering, thinking, feeling, experiencing - I am doing this thread because from some articles I have read there seems to be the perception that we are unable to develop and maintain longterm relationships (kinda true for me for various reasons but am sure it is not so for others). So I was wondering...

What has been the longest period of time you have been in a committed relationship? If you are still with your partner, how do you keep the relationship alive? If you are split - why? What caused the breakup?

Is "marriage" important to you? Why?

When you go out, are you looking for that special someone or just a 'somebody'? As in, 'if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with'.

Since I am asking guess I should be willing answer too.

My longest relationship was five years. We broke up when my partner informed me she didn't get involved with me to be a co-parent though she knew I had a child at the time we got involved - we dated for six months before living together. It's not like I hid the kid in the closet!

I asked my partner to marry me so yeah - marriage is important to me. I view marriage as a public statement to my family and friends that this person, this relationship is important to me. Should have ended the relationship with my partner when she declined my marriage proposal. I am so hopeful and blind sometimes!

At this time in my life I prefer to be alone rather than with a 'somebody'. Still hoping for that special someone. Foolish woman that I am!

 

[none2_none2]

Marriage is important to me, but for different reasons than you. I don't make many public statements because I tend to be shy in that respect. Even if I was straight, the idea of a big church weding sounds intimidating -- actually the reception afterwards seems even more so.

For me the biggest reason is religious. I see it as a declaration to my partner and to the God of my understanding that this is my mate and I wish to do to right by him.

As someone who is rather closeted, I'm very uncomfortable with being out -- not out of being ashamed, but simply tired of being labeled. Have you ever been with even the most well-meaning of liberal people who thinks they understand you now that they know you are gay? I HATE that because it is BS. It is a cheap shortcut to actually taking the time to get to know you. Instead of homosexuality being an adjective to help describe you, it becomes you -- the noun. Oh yes, I know so and so -- he's gay...

Anyway, I think that is the reason that I hesitate. I also guess I always fear that if I asked my partner again that perhaps he might say no. I did all the asking earlier -- it will be 4 years on Labor Day. He said yes, but as we get comfortable, you forget about formalities. Now that he knows I snore, I can ge mad at times, I can be a slob, etc; my night-in-shining-armor appearance isn't quite so white anymore. Still I would like to think it was possible one day, and that he would say yes again.

I get really pissed about marriage being banned. I've never participated in any gay parade march. I don't make a spectical of "being gay". For instance, I never even held another man's hand in public for fear I would offend some straight person's sensibilities. In fact, I was rather ashamed of myself the other day. A census lady stopped by to talk about crime, and asked me about the household. She point blank asked me about my relationship with my partner. I said "roommates". I couldn't say lover/partner/etc., because I didn't trust her reaction. I just cannot bring myself to be honest with most straight people -- I simply don't trust them. I've seen how they respond on the subject when I'm in a group where I can "pass" as straight.

So though I don't have the fortitude to deal with being honest with str8's, I cling to the hope that marriage would be an option. (Back on the honesty, I should add a bit more so that people don't get the idea that its all about internalized homophobia. I don't wish to go into to details, but let it suffice that I had another label to deal with unrelated to sexual preference through out my life. I hated that fact that I couldn't hide that area as well. Not out of being dishonest, but dealing with people's attitudes -- well meaning or not.) Anyway, despite my hesitations, I like to think that still as a human being that I could marry the person I love.

The fact that we don't have that right really pisses me off. I have little respect for str8's that don't want us to have this right. If marriage is only for creating babies, then they should ban marriages between heterosexuals who either cannot or will not conceive. As to being a threat to marriage, I have yet to meet any hetrosexual man that said he would "go" gay if he could just marry another man. If there was any threat to heterosexual marriage, it is divorce. Why don't we constitutionally ban divorce if marriage is so "sacred".

Finally, I don't want to bring up another hot topic, but I'll just briefly mention it. The Fundies claim that that abortion is murder. Regardless of how people feel about that topic on this board, I think many of the fundies really don't care. If they did, then why do they spend more money, more energy, and get more votes to defeat "gay marriage" then to end what they consider murder? I was at a political debate during the last major election that was actually sponsored (or at least held) at my employer's campus. There were claps and some cheers for the Republican candidate who wanted abortion restrictions. However, when the subject of a constitutional ban on gay marriage came up you couldn't hear over the shouts and applauses for his position. In other words, in their minds we are worse than "murderers" for wanting to marry the person we love who happens to be of the same gender. Personally, at that moment I wish the roof would have caved in and killed them all. I hated every one of them that cheered.

 

[privyjo]

Thank you, None2. I was getting worried there my post might be considered too political in nature to respond to and I did not want it to be political but somehow the personal does become political even if you don't want it to be that way! Or that there were no gay/lesbian people on lit!

I know how you feel about the label - once you are identified as gay/lesbian somehow that is all you become to others - just lesbian or gay. But I am a mother, a sister, a daughter, an aunt, a reader, a writer, a worker, a consumer, a church member, a lover of nature who enoys fishing, horseback riding and hiking, and spending time with family and friends. I am more than my sexual orientation but a lot people seem to stop right there at lesbian and go no further. I feel fortunate to have a supportive family and friends who do see all of me and who want me to be the best person I can be.

As a mother, I was involved with a 10 year custody battle over my son. My son's father married a Christian fundamentalist woman who felt she needed to save my son's "fucking soul" - her words not mine. Have to love those fundamentalists! Fortunately, during those ten years, I lived in a state where sexuality could not be used as a basis for a custody battle - sexual promiscuity could be used but not sexual orientation - there IS a difference between the two. I am totally out of the closet and have been for a very long time and don't care to go back in it, no matter who is asking the questions - even a judge. However, I don't attend gay pride gatherings either. Tried once to join a GLBT group once but got tired of the bickering and quit going. I have found other ways to support the community.

I have also learned that no matter what happens on the political scene, I will still follow my heart and be who I am. I live in a red state but oh well I have been pleasantly surprised by the community of friends I have been able to develop here in the city I live in - moved back here about a year ago. I have met the liberals you describe in your post but don't have the energy to be all angry and resentful towards them anymore. I used to have short fuse but as time passes it takes a lot more to get me all fired up than misguided support.

I hope you and your partner do marry one day. You say he said yes - so what's the holdup on a commitment ceremony? God is everywhere, not in just some church buildings.

 

[Etoile]

My partner and I have been together for eight and a half years. Prior to that, she was married for ten years (to a man). Because of her past, she isn't interested in having a commitment ceremony, getting married in Canada, or anything. She's the only person I've ever wanted to spend my whole life with, and I do want to get married in Canada. The commitment ceremony thing isn't hugely appealing, but I do want a nice catered party where we get to wear pretty things and be the guests of honor...every time we go to someobdy else's wedding, I am envious of the whole fuss being made over the happy couple, and I want that for us. My wife - we started using "wife" in late 2004, when we got matching rings that we wear daily - doesn't want a commitment ceremony if there's nothing legal attached to it, though. But she says that when we've been together 10 years, we can have our fancy party and invite all our friends.

I do want there to be a legal implication to getting married, though. I want to put "married" on forms and have it mean something. (For official/govt forms I usually put single; for other forms I'll put married; if "partnered" is an option I'll put that.) I want those damn 1,138 rights. I want equality, for fuck's sake.

As for how we keep our relationship alive after 8.5 yrs...I guess it's not really something we have to work at. It just happens for us. We are insanely sappy and goofy and lovey with each other, we say I love you a billion times a day...I just can't imagine being with anybody else. Every single day I love her a little bit more than I did the day before.

 

[tazzer82]

The longest I was in a relationship was 4 and 1/2 years,and it was my first and only relationship with another woman. Of course,I was only 19 at the time and had only been out for a couple of years. Her and I are no longer together,I ended things because I just didn't feel the same way about her as I did when we first got together. I guess you could say it was just little things that gradually added up and things just snowballed,and pretty much went downhill from there. Of course,part of it was her being jealous that I was going out with a friend of mine to hang out or whatever,and there was a couple of huge fights because of it...now mind you,I told her when we first got together that I wasn't going to be with anyone who was going to be jealous,especially over me going out with a friend of mine.

As for marriage,there were times I thought about being married one day,but now I'm not so sure I feel the same way. Just doesn't seem to be part of my focus at the moment.

Now that I'm single and been through a long-term relationship,I'm at the point to where I'm trying to figure out where exactly I fit in and what it is that I want. Staying single for awhile is a definite,I just don't think that it's time to get involved in another relationship yet. My ex has already jumped into another relationship,with someone she went to high school with no less. It doesn't really bother me that she is with someone else,but the fact that she kept telling me that my breaking up with her crushed her so badly,and yet here she is talking to this girl non-stop as soon as she gets in from work.

So as for trying to find someone else,not at this point and time. Only thing I wouldn't mind doing is finding some friends in the gay community,never hurts to be around your own kind and make friends that way. So,if someone happens to find me attractive enough or whatever,and a friendship develops into something more,than maybe I will go that route again...but for now I'm single and not really minding it.

 

[PredatorSmile]

When you are in a relationship, sometimes it's best to weather the storm, especially when the man/woman in your life is going through something difficult. Things can get better afterwards.

 

[privyjo]

My partner and I have been together for eight and a half years. Prior to that, she was married for ten years (to a man). Because of her past, she isn't interested in having a commitment ceremony, getting married in Canada, or anything. She's the only person I've ever wanted to spend my whole life with, and I do want to get married in Canada. The commitment ceremony thing isn't hugely appealing, but I do want a nice catered party where we get to wear pretty things and be the guests of honor...every time we go to someobdy else's wedding, I am envious of the whole fuss being made over the happy couple, and I want that for us. My wife - we started using "wife" in late 2004, when we got matching rings that we wear daily - doesn't want a commitment ceremony if there's nothing legal attached to it, though. But she says that when we've been together 10 years, we can have our fancy party and invite all our friends.

I do want there to be a legal implication to getting married, though. I want to put "married" on forms and have it mean something. (For official/govt forms I usually put single; for other forms I'll put married; if "partnered" is an option I'll put that.) I want those damn 1,138 rights. I want equality, for fuck's sake.

As for how we keep our relationship alive after 8.5 yrs...I guess it's not really something we have to work at. It just happens for us. We are insanely sappy and goofy and lovey with each other, we say I love you a billion times a day...I just can't imagine being with anybody else. Every single day I love her a little bit more than I did the day before.

Etoile, I hear you. Thank you. I am always happy to hear about happy couples. Yes - equality - legal rights, financial rights, tax rights - all of it - I want all of it!

I asked about keeping a relationship alive and working cuz I think I am really LOUSY at it! But like someone told me recently - people meet their soulmates at different times in life - so I keep hoping. But I am happy you have found your soulmate!

 

[privyjo]

The longest I was in a relationship was 4 and 1/2 years,and it was my first and only relationship with another woman. Of course,I was only 19 at the time and had only been out for a couple of years. Her and I are no longer together,I ended things because I just didn't feel the same way about her as I did when we first got together. I guess you could say it was just little things that gradually added up and things just snowballed,and pretty much went downhill from there. Of course,part of it was her being jealous that I was going out with a friend of mine to hang out or whatever,and there was a couple of huge fights because of it...now mind you,I told her when we first got together that I wasn't going to be with anyone who was going to be jealous,especially over me going out with a friend of mine.

As for marriage,there were times I thought about being married one day,but now I'm not so sure I feel the same way. Just doesn't seem to be part of my focus at the moment.

Now that I'm single and been through a long-term relationship,I'm at the point to where I'm trying to figure out where exactly I fit in and what it is that I want. Staying single for awhile is a definite,I just don't think that it's time to get involved in another relationship yet. My ex has already jumped into another relationship,with someone she went to high school with no less. It doesn't really bother me that she is with someone else,but the fact that she kept telling me that my breaking up with her crushed her so badly,and yet here she is talking to this girl non-stop as soon as she gets in from work.

So as for trying to find someone else,not at this point and time. Only thing I wouldn't mind doing is finding some friends in the gay community,never hurts to be around your own kind and make friends that way. So,if someone happens to find me attractive enough or whatever,and a friendship develops into something more,than maybe I will go that route again...but for now I'm single and not really minding it.

Hi Tazzer! My ex-partner of five years thought I was having an affair and was more jealous of my friendships than I realized. But what really blew up our relationship was that she was jealous I had to give attention to my son. I always tried to figure out how she thought I had time to have an affair between trying to keep our relationship alive, being a mother, a full time employee, and commuting to and from work in the Washington DC area which was no easy feat!

Since our breakup four years ago I have stayed out of relationships - finally got it through my head I needed to reevaluate who I am before I go off and get involved with someone! I have been approached a few times but am learning to say no if I am not physically/intellectually attracted to the individual. I get lonely sometimes but then I am getting out and, as you say, making friends in the gay community! But it takes time - trust seems to be low in the gay community or so it seems to me. Took four months of going to the same bar before I really started meeting people or for the regulars to sit and talk with me. It has been well worth the effort!

But tomorrow night is my birthday and my sister, two nieces, sister-in-law and son are going to my regular gay bar with me to celebrate! This is really new for my family and I must say I am looking forward to it! Told them I have done the straight bar scene with them long enough and it is time for them to cross over to my side of the street!!

 

[privyjo]

When you are in a relationship, sometimes it's best to weather the storm, especially when the man/woman in your life is going through something difficult. Things can get better afterwards.

Agree with you PredatorSmile! But sometimes the problem beyond all understanding - my ex is now a Mormon! Glad you are here!

 

[Jaxbi]

My partner and I have been together almost 9 months, but have known each other for 3-4 years, through work.

It may not seem very long, but it feels so right, and wonderful for the both of us, that we've spoken about marriage, or a civil union ceremony. And, the funny thing is - neither of us has actually gotten on one knee, and asked the other, we just came to the mutual conclusion that it was what we both wanted, so neither has had to ask.

However, my partner's parents have only known since February that she's bisexual/gay. And they are a little older and more traditional than my parents, and whilst they are really supportive, we are going to give it a little more time, before we tell them about the CU, and other things we would like to do - have children, etc. And, my parents...may need a little time.

In NZ, we have access to Civil Unions, which whilst it may not be marriage as such, we are eligible for all the same rights as a married couple, and still have the two years wait to dissolve a Civil Union as you do with a divorce. And, in some ways already have similar rights to those around us, who are straight. Except for adoption, but NZ is slowly getting.

For me, it's about telling the world what I feel for K, and that she is the only person in the world I want to spend my life with, and share my life with. She knows how much I love her, and I guess I want to be able to show that legally.

Like Etoile said, it's not so much something that we have to work at keeping the relationship going - I fall more in love with K, every passing day.

Jax

 

[privyjo]

Thank you, Jaxbi! I am learning so much from everyone who has posted here! I wish you and K nothing but the best and hope all goes well the parents. Nine months of togetherness may not be viewed as long but knowing each other 3 to 4 years IS a long time!

 

[interfacial]

The most I had ever been with a female partner is 4 months, but we had been friends before that. The relationship was great, but for the most part, it was really just best friends who had a lot of sex with each other. At first we thought that maybe our great friendship and lust would blossom into something more, after all we were both so similar in our ideas of what we wanted out of the relationship. But, even though we had a very open relationship, our deal was that we both had to be participants when with other partners, and she did not enjoy the company of men at all. I feel bad for letting that get in the way, I really had been developing romantic feelings for her, just not enough for me to compromise at the time.

We had even discussed what our future would've been like. We both agreed we didn't want to get married, but if we were going to have kids we did want them to be genetically related. Adoption would be a good thing to do, but it just didn't sit right with us. It might sound weird, but we actually got her brother to agree that if the time ever came, he would provide the sperm. He really did look just like her, just male.

Everyone should have the same rights, but their are plenty of legal ways to insure the same rights as any married couple, it's ridiculous that you would have to put in so much more work for it, though. I was once told that by individually getting certain rights to your partner through many contracts did help in court cases compared to where just the singular legal contract of marriage is involved, as it's easier to strike down one contract than many. Still, I doubt that helps when judges are often biased in same sex matters.

 

[privyjo]

Hi Interfacial - Thanks for your post. You bring out a good point - how willing are we to work towards a compromise in our relationships? Are there things we simply will not compromise on? I wonder about this concerning myself all the time. Hope you find someone you can be yourself with at all times.

 

[kbate]

.....

 

[privyjo]

kbate - your post warms this old heart of mine! Thank you for posting. And might we ask if your first child is a boy or a girl? I know I can mosey over to your thread but well thought I would ask here. And congratulations on the forthcoming second child. I am hoping all goes well with the pregnancy! Best wishes go out to your wife!

Think we all muddle (some of us for longer periods of time than others!) through our sexual explorations and whatnot until we find that one person with whom we can be fully honest and open with regardless of our idiosyncrancies! I am glad you have found your ONE.

 

[Etoile]

As it is, we have filed papers which give us a defacto marriage: power of attorney, medical power of attorney, wills, living wills, joint ownership of property, joint accounts - essentially a full joint ownership of everything.

kbate, this both warms my heart and makes me sad. It is beautiful to see such a commitment to each other even after a short time together. And at the same time...none of your documents mean anything for as long as you live in this state. It's really quite insane, because one person should be allowed to designate any other person for those things...but in our state they have no meaning. If she were in the hospital, you still wouldn't have any legal right to visit her, despite the medical power of attorney. If the hospital was kind, they'd let you in and let you act as POA...but they're not required to. If her family showed up and said they wanted to make the decisions, their blood relationship would trump your documents. I know it's crazy, but it's the way things work in this state. I know multiple lesbian couples who used to live in our state, and moved one state north once these laws were passed that forbid such documents from having any legal standing, which was in 2004. I would strongly recommend talking to your lawyer, who is undoubtedly better informed than I am, as long as he or she is familiar with same-sex relationship law.

A Google search (use the words 'contract,' 'confer,' and 'marriage') turns up many results, including:
"So since documents like living wills, powers of attorney, or joint ownership agreements confer some of 'the privileges or obligations of marriage,' the state of _____ can nullify any or all of them, just as long as these contracts are made between persons of the same sex."

 

[privyjo]

Think we may have lived in the same state, Etoile, in 2004. Remember some friends of mine organizing a protest in a certain city against passing that law that effectively made same sex agreements null and void. Very, very sad. Doubt it would survive if ever anyone took it up to the Supreme Court but then who the hell has the energy for that!?

 

[Queersetti]

I'm an old bachelor and I intend to stay that way.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't want to have the right to marry if I were to change my mind.

 

[RogueLurker]

Ever since I was a little kid, I've always sworn that I would never get married. I told everyone this so often and so vehemently that my stepfather had me sign an affadavit when I was 11 ... and he told me that if I didn't recant, my dowry would be reduced to $50 to buy a ladder. (he was a funny guy ) And it was looking pretty good that I'd make good on my vow when it turned out I didn't like boys.

So I entered into a committed relationship nine years ago, involving shared property and debt, a mortgage and dependant animals ... and love. That was enough for me. I knew we were together, she knew we were together, our friends and family knew we were together. We share a household bank account, we own property together, she is my beneficiary for medical and insurance benefits and I am hers, we have wills, powers of attorney for medical and financial/legal decisions. The commitement is there ...mentally, emotionally, financially, legally and adminstratively. Although I've always believed that lesbians and gays should have the right to marry ... and the arguements that are constantly being raised against it make my blood boil at times ... the whole marriage issue wasn't something that I ever really considered on a personal level for a number of reasons ... but they were personal reaons, not political ones.

Until Canada's courts started making rulings. Then it became a real possiblity. I still didn't see the need .. but it meant something to my partner, and she meant something to me. So we eloped, honeymooned in Vegas, and things didn't change all that much. Except that now that there is talk that the right to marry might be taken away ... it turns out that it does mean something to me ... and I will fight for it.

 

[none2_none2]

I'm an old bachelor and I intend to stay that way.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't want to have the right to marry if I were to change my mind.

I think that is the point that many people don't get. I've heard people say things like (note this is more referring to gay males than lesbians):

1) "I don't know any gays who WANT to get married."

2) "Gays are naturally promiscuious, so two men together wouldn't want that kind of institution."

3) "Children aren't usually involved, so why would they even want such a thing."

All I can say is that when you are specifically EXCLUDED from something it makes you feel singled out -- even if you probably wouldn't to it anyway. Obviously, there are natural exclusions but those usually involve certain physical or mental standards that if you can't make it you would risk your safety or the safety of others who would rely on you. Those can be rationalized.

With that being said many restrictions have nothing to do with needed physical/mental standards. For example:

I may not want to joint the military as I'm horrible with following orders. However, it bothers me that gay's cannot join unless they are VERY secretive. (For myself I have a physical limitation (hearing). I understand that so I'm not offended that I personally cannot join.)

 

[kbate]

.....

 

[Xectxny19X]

Well, marriage would be important to me not b/c it would solidify my relationship w/ my potential partner but mostly for legal issues. We'll solidify our relationship through our love & trust for each other, & a piece of paper can't do that.

At my job, the married couples get a lot of benefits! Though I'll be well taken care of, I would love to extend my benefits to my significant other! There are probably some other factors that a married couple can gain versus a couple who is not married I'm sure. I just can't think of them right now.

I used to know this lady whose partner passed away. The hospital staff had made it very difficult for her to visit for long periods of time, b/c she was just a 'friend' legally.

 

[Queersetti]

I think that is the point that many people don't get. I've heard people say things like (note this is more referring to gay males than lesbians):

1) "I don't know any gays who WANT to get married."

2) "Gays are naturally promiscuious, so two men together wouldn't want that kind of institution."

3) "Children aren't usually involved, so why would they even want such a thing."

All I can say is that when you are specifically EXCLUDED from something it makes you feel singled out -- even if you probably wouldn't to it anyway. Obviously, there are natural exclusions but those usually involve certain physical or mental standards that if you can't make it you would risk your safety or the safety of others who would rely on you. Those can be rationalized.

With that being said many restrictions have nothing to do with needed physical/mental standards. For example:

I may not want to joint the military as I'm horrible with following orders. However, it bothers me that gay's cannot join unless they are VERY secretive. (For myself I have a physical limitation (hearing). I understand that so I'm not offended that I personally cannot join.)

Exactly. I may have no desire to travel to Utah, for example, but I'll be damned if I'll let anyone tell me that I'm not allowed to go there.

I'll never understand why so many political conservatives don't realize the essentially conservative nature of the gay rights movement. What do we want? To be left alone, to be able to marry and raise families, and to serve our country and our community openly and freely, just like anyone else. That sounds like a conservative agenda to me.

 

[PredatorSmile]

Marriage requires serious commitment regardless of sexual orientation !

 

[pa-guy]

Hmm, haven't posted in a while now but I just saw this thread.

I completely disagree with the whole Gay/Lesbian Marriage ordeal. Now before anyone gets too excited allow me to explain.

Marriage is a religious ceremony. The government may have the term "Marriage" on the books, but the basis for it is in religion. Therefore, b/c its a religious institution, the government shouldn't be in the business of marriages. And following that logic, then there shouldn't be a need for a Gay/Lesbian Marriage political debate.

As a side note, the biggest counter-argument (not that I believe this to be valid mind you) is that a marriage by definition is between a man and a woman. However, its a religious institution. Marriages are for churches; let the religions of the world figure out how they want to handle marriages. If the religions want to continue defining it as such, thats a matter for the religion and its congregation and it can get out of the political news cycle for good.

Now what I do support is some type of Legal Union (of a practically identical nature as that of current legal marriages). Such a union should be supplied to any couple regardless of their gender or relationship status, assuming they meet certain standards such as maintaining the same residence, etc (basically a demonstration that they are coexisting together). This could then apply to your traditional "married couple", a gay/lesbian couple, or even two people that live together plutonically (think family members, people helping to raise kids, etc). Hell if you're a single parent and your parent is living with you to help raise the kids, why shouldn't you get the same benefits as a "married" couple? I can think of countless scenarios where this would apply.

The Legal Union should in all places in government affairs replace marriage stipulations: Adoptions, insurance, taxes, estate, etc.

If the government were to seperate itself from religion for the purpose of bonding two people legally and the term marriage was no longer associated, then the biggest counter-argument to gay/lesbian "marriage" is nullified.

If people then want to go through a "marriage" ceremony, or a committment ceremony more power to them, thats their personal decision and the government (and everyone else for that matter) can stay the hell out of it.

If people want to get married, let them go to a church. Please don't misconstrue me as anti-religion (I could care less if the ten commandments are up on a government building), I simply don't think government should be endorsing, and certainly not codifying, religious institutions.