Gay vs. Bi vs. Straight?

[CJontherocks]

Okay, I've see a lot of talk about how bisexual people are second-class citizens in the GLBT community and how gays trash straight people ad nauseum. But honestly, I've never seen anything like that. I'm not really out in the open, but there are a couple people who know I'm bisexual and embrace it, both gay and straight.

To be fair, I can understand why a gay or lesbian person would maybe have some bitterness toward the homophobics and just plain mean straight people who trash gays. I have witnessed straight people using extremely harsh descriptions of gays/lesbians/bisexuals, and of course there is violence in the news constantly against us.

But in general, I've found "our kind" to be friendly, fun-loving and kind to animals. So where does all this come from? Is there really a problem? Am I naive or blind or just not involved enough?

 

[John Doe]

Am I naive or blind or just not involved enough?

Just lucky.

 

[sweetwetslut]

No, some people are just assholes. They are boring and can take care of themselves. Don't sweat the bad people and fuck whomever you want.

 

[CorsetLvr]

I'm bi and have had many lesbian friends over the years. Let me try to explain it to you the way it has been presented to me. I do not support the theory, but only attempt to explain it.

The feeling of many of the more radical folks in the gay community is that there is no such thing as being bi. That bisexuals are just gay people that refuse to give up on their pre-conceived notions of "normalcy." That we are just fence sitters, unwilling to acknowledge that we are really gay. This reasoning is also why many in the gay community go after gay public figures that are in the closet. They feel that the only way for gays to become accepted is if everyone comes out of the closet.

As I said, I don't support this philosophy, but at least I can understand it on an intellectual level. I on the other hand, am more of a believer in the Kinsey model of human sexuality that says that there is a spectrum of sexuality. Kinsey stated that at one extreme of this spectrum is purely hetero and at the other end is purely homosexual. He stated that most people exist somewhere in the middle.

I'm happily positioned smack dab in the middle.

If someone from the gay community would like to step in here and do a better job of explaining this, please do. I'm just trying to fill in the niche until someone does.

 

[bisexplicit]

But in general, I've found "our kind" to be friendly, fun-loving and kind to animals.

I would just like to point out that you are being as stereotypical as homophobics are.

Saying all gay people are "kind to animals" may be a positive stereotype, but it still is a stereotype.

 

[none2_none2]

I would just like to point out that you are being as stereotypical as homophobics are.

Saying all gay people are "kind to animals" may be a positive stereotype, but it still is a stereotype.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong about what he said. Had he said "all", "everyone", "no one"... those are terms used to stereotype a group. He did NOT say all. He used terms like "in general" and "I found" -- meaning that he wasn't stereotyping. We all have to make some generalizations based on what we observe. We need to be open to see things differently, but that doesn't mean we cannot draw conclusions from what we have experienced.

For instance, if I see a pit bull I'm going to be on my guard. I can only establish that I am safe with that particular dog AFTER some safe interaction with that dog. I don't have the right to kill it just because of its assumed threat. However, to totally ignore what I have observed up to this point would not only be nieve, it might cost me a bite or even worse.

 

[revolution724]

Saying all gay people are "kind to animals" may be a positive stereotype, but it still is a stereotype.

quip , n.
1. A clever, witty remark often prompted by the occasion.
2. A clever, often sarcastic remark; a gibe. See Synonyms at joke.

 

[CJontherocks]

Thanks, None2. I only meant that my in my personal interactions with the gay and/or bi people I know, I've found them to be nice people. It may be that those with whom I choose to associate are just nice people anyway, so my interactions in general... my "control sample," if you will... do not include those who would cause or be part of a problem like the one we're discussing.

So I have a relatively limited view, especially since I am in the closet and I'm not really exposed to the GLBT world at large. I only see what's close to me, what's written in here and in other web sites, and what I see around me. My world is not one in which GLBT is a welcome concept.

If I generalize or stereotype too much, I apologize. I am human and sometimes still struggle to overcome the environment in which I was raised. But I do try, and I thought I was fairly clear that I was referring only to what I have personally seen and not the population as a whole. And "kind to animals" was merely used as a bit of humor to describe a genuinely nice person.

My query was simply to get more information on what appears to me to be a real problem, and yet I haven't experienced any of it. Is it real? I have to believe it is, since many complain of it. Is there a solution? Is there anyone out there seeking a solution? Should I just stay in the closet and ignore it? How do I become involved? (I realize part of the answer to that is drag my chicken-sh*t ass out of the closet.)

 

[Half-Cat]

Just lucky.

Or maybe just choosy about who you hang around with. I've seen both types, and it seems to me the gays that get upset about us bi's tend to have an extremist streak. They seem to see the world in absolutes, black or white, gay or straight. Since we don't fit in their world view, they get upset.
Me, I hang aroung the ones that know there are alot of shades of gray in the world, and don't try to pigeonhole everyone.

 

[Queersetti]

Or maybe just choosy about who you hang around with. I've seen both types, and it seems to me the gays that get upset about us bi's tend to have an extremist streak. They seem to see the world in absolutes, black or white, gay or straight. Since we don't fit in their world view, they get upset.
Me, I hang aroung the ones that know there are alot of shades of gray in the world, and don't try to pigeonhole everyone.

While I don't condone prejudice against anyone based on their sexual identification, I have to point out that the majority of gays and lesbians I've known who expressed anti-bi attitudes had, at some point, had the experience of having a bi lover or partner reject them for a heterosexual relationship.

Of course, that does not excuse prejudie, but it I think it does add some light into why some gays and lesbians feel bitterness on the subject of bisexuality.

 

[gingermango]

While I don't condone prejudice against anyone based on their sexual identification, I have to point out that the majority of gays and lesbians I've known who expressed anti-bi attitudes had, at some point, had the experience of having a bi lover or partner reject them for a heterosexual relationship.

Interesting observation you make. My ex-wife's brother (my ex-brother-in-law, I guess) is gay and had that happen to him a couple of times through college and then a time or two afterwards. His deepest, biggest, hardest crush after college was on a guy who had a girlfriend - his crush was sleeping around on his girlfriend with my brother-in-law and she was totally clueless about it. And this kid kept breaking it off to go back to the girl. And yeah, my brother-in-law was pretty hard-core about "There's no such thing as being bi. You're either queer or straight."

 

[Samuelx]

I am bisexual and will never betray my species.


- Steeves V. of Brockton, MA.
October 4, 2005

 

[Half-Cat]

Interesting observation you make. My ex-wife's brother (my ex-brother-in-law, I guess) is gay and had that happen to him a couple of times through college and then a time or two afterwards. His deepest, biggest, hardest crush after college was on a guy who had a girlfriend - his crush was sleeping around on his girlfriend with my brother-in-law and she was totally clueless about it. And this kid kept breaking it off to go back to the girl. And yeah, my brother-in-law was pretty hard-core about "There's no such thing as being bi. You're either queer or straight."

I'm sorry, but to me, it sounds like he just wanted some on the side. Period. The only difference is it was your brother and not your sister. I have an on-off lover who at least was honest enough to tell me that he was very attracted to women still, and if he met one he was attracted to enough to have a serious relationship with, and he had to choose between her or me with her knowing all about me, then he'd probably choose her. That guy just sounds like a player.

 

[gingermango]

I'm sorry, but to me, it sounds like he just wanted some on the side. Period. The only difference is it was your brother and not your sister. I have an on-off lover who at least was honest enough to tell me that he was very attracted to women still, and if he met one he was attracted to enough to have a serious relationship with, and he had to choose between her or me with her knowing all about me, then he'd probably choose her. That guy just sounds like a player.

I'm not sure I get your point. Of course my brother-in-law's friend just wanted some boy-sex on the side. My brother-in-law was bitter about the fact that his friend kept going back to the girl, and HE'S the one (my brother-in-law) who kept insisting there's no such thing as being bi. The question is, is THAT position (the one I was responding to in my first post above) an effect of gay folks who've been left for opposite-gender relationships? I don't know - I was just sharing a similar situation involving someone I used to know.

 

[Half-Cat]

I'm not sure I get your point. Of course my brother-in-law's friend just wanted some boy-sex on the side. My brother-in-law was bitter about the fact that his friend kept going back to the girl, and HE'S the one (my brother-in-law) who kept insisting there's no such thing as being bi. The question is, is THAT position (the one I was responding to in my first post above) an effect of gay folks who've been left for opposite-gender relationships? I don't know - I was just sharing a similar situation involving someone I used to know.

Ah. My mistake. I got a bit sidetracked by the story. Blame it on my hay-fever meds .

 

[Raimondin]

But in general, I've found "our kind" to be friendly, fun-loving and kind to animals. So where does all this come from? Is there really a problem? Am I naive or blind or just not involved enough?

Thank you so much for saying that. That's how I've always felt. That's the part I've always tried to focus on. Of course I understand most of us here come from, or live in very different enviroments, lifestyles, and economic levels. Maybe that's the cause or reason.

There does seem to be much dissension or discord between us all at times. Sometimes there' no escaping it or avoiding it. Then I don't want to get involved. No, I don't think it's being naive or blind. I think it's just difficult for the sensitive people of the world to fit in or find a place amongst the discord. That's why it very difficult for me to post on some of these threads which involve heavy issues or negative attacks. It's as if my hands cramp up at the keyboard or I become mute. Or it seems my posts don't make any sense.

As you know there's two sides to everything. I also opt for the kind & friendly side.

 

[Tymeless]

very interesting topic wish i had an answer to it.

 

[CJontherocks]

I do understand if one is burned by a bisexual person, one might avoid that situation in the future and could become skittish, even bitter. I don't know myself if I could give up women forever... he would have to be a pretty great guy. But then again, that goes both ways (no pun intended).

I wonder... If we could pick out any social discord and label or categorize it, would it seem like a larger issue? Could it be that this issue, being concentrated on the GLBT audience, seems bigger or more troublesome because it is under a microscope? Maybe it's not such a grand issue at all. I would like to hear thoughts from some who are strictly gay.

 

[Raimondin]

I would like to hear thoughts from some who are strictly gay.

Well, you just did. If you read my previous post(above).
I'm (as you state) strictly gay. Or 100% gay, or whatever.

Ok. I've had bisexual boyfriends in the past and it either ended up being very painful or disastrous. Why? Because I had always thought that having a bisexual bf was the closest to a (real?) man. Silly and naive, isn't it? What's a "real" man?

The part I wasn't prepared or ready for was the "Oh, but you know I also like girls" part, or "sorry, but I just have to go out and have my usual dose of women."

I was devasted because I'm more of a monogamous type. This was like betrayal, infidelity, and rejection to me. Up to that point I really didn't quite understand what bisexuality was. Or I was just too blindly in love to see it or understand it.
Plus, I was constantly being ridiculed or put down for not being bisexual or "liking girls" by other bisexuals or straight guys.
"You're missing out, man." Or "Hey, it's the best of both worlds!" Or "How can you NOT like chicks."

No, I wasn't missing out. You're missing out when you're not getting (or going after) what you want. That wasn't what I was interested in, wanted, fantasized about, or desired sexually. They couldn't understand that, or couldn't accepted it.
Just because I wasn't attracted to women (in a sexual manner), didn't mean I hated them or didn't like them (as people). How ignorant and shallow that is.
Yes, there was anger, hatred, confusion and discord, but more than anything there was lots of pain and hurt.

At the same time I Never criticized or ridiculed them for being bisexual (or straight). In the end I really didn't blame them for it. It was just my wrong choice of men.

I really believe we already have enough problems from the "outside" world, or the non-gay world, to be inflicting more to each other as GLBT people. Besides, we will always be "under their microscope."

Please, I'm not saying this in renewed anger, rencor, or monotony, but more in retrospect from my very distant past. I know I have probably said these things before in some of my other posts from the past, but this is the best "real life" example I can give you in a nutshell.

I'm now married, (or partnered) to a really great guy and have accepted long ago that we are all different in many ways, but at the same time very much alike as human beings. As I stated in my previous post, I will always opt for the kind & friendly side of things. At least try to.

 

[CuriousNiceGuy]

*hugs Raimondin in a squeasy way*
Aaaaaaaaw..
You are too sweet!!
*runs away when he sees R's partner coming*
XD

 

[John Doe]

So anyway, what's with the vs.? What is this, Sexual Orientation Smackdown?

 

[Queersetti]

I do understand if one is burned by a bisexual person, one might avoid that situation in the future and could become skittish, even bitter. I don't know myself if I could give up women forever... he would have to be a pretty great guy. But then again, that goes both ways (no pun intended).

I wonder... If we could pick out any social discord and label or categorize it, would it seem like a larger issue? Could it be that this issue, being concentrated on the GLBT audience, seems bigger or more troublesome because it is under a microscope? Maybe it's not such a grand issue at all. I would like to hear thoughts from some who are strictly gay.

I don't know how much of the issue is based on outside social pressure, and how much is based on gender differences.

Even in a society where then was no stigma against homosexuality, gender differences would remain. I think that even if you take away all the problems of outside social pressure and disapproval, for many people, the problem would remain.

 

[CJontherocks]

Well, you just did. If you read my previous post(above).
I'm (as you state) strictly gay. Or 100% gay, or whatever.

I apologize... I didn't mean to slight you. I guess I was looking for someone to say, "Yeah, I think bisexuals suck because..." or "Heck no, some of my best friends are Bi."

I do appreciate what you've been through. I also prefer a monogamous relationship. Yes I look at girls mainly, but guys catch my eye too... a lot. I'd like to think if I found a great guy, I'd be just as dedicated to him as I would if I found a great woman... if it ever actually came down to a long-term relationship. There's one guy in particular I could really enjoy being with exclusively. Damned shame he's straight as an arrow (or appears to be). I've never actually had anything with a man other than sex, but lately I've been thinking I'd like to try for something more. That wasn't always true, of course. When I was first realizing my sexuality, I thought girls were for relationships and guys were for sex... at the time, I wasn't really in tune with how attracted I am to males. I've never really agreed with the "Bi is great because you get twice the opportunities," point of view. It's pretty cool that I can enjoy sex with both sexes... but I can't have a relationship with both so when it comes down to what I really want, it's not such a great thing.

...I had always thought that having a bisexual bf was the closest to a (real?) man. Silly and naive, isn't it? What's a "real" man?

I don't know how to respond to that, but the fact that you said it touched me.

I really believe we already have enough problems from the "outside" world, or the non-gay world, to be inflicting more to each other as GLBT people. Besides, we will always be "under their microscope."

You're absilutely right. And it's good to hear someone say it.

So anyway, what's with the vs.? What is this, Sexual Orientation Smackdown?

Not at all... I have nothing against any sexual orientation. I made it a question because I thought if there was a problem, at least some of us could talk about it.

I don't know how much of the issue is based on outside social pressure, and how much is based on gender differences.

Even in a society where then was no stigma against homosexuality, gender differences would remain. I think that even if you take away all the problems of outside social pressure and disapproval, for many people, the problem would remain.

Within the GLBT there should certainly be no stigma against homosexuality, and yet people still complain of a problem. But I do see that not everyone perceives a real "problem," based on the responses in here. I'd just hate to hear that the GLBT community is not a close to Utopia as one can get.

Anyway, thanks to all who responded... I sure do like you guys.

-- CJ