Gay Guys in Denial: Any hope?

[3113]

Greetings. I'm an author with a question which might or might not inform a story. I'd be grateful for any help of insight anyone could give me on this subject.

I'm certainly aware that there are plenty of gay guys (and girls) out there in denial; religious men who insist that they're "cured" of any youthful, homosexual feelings, married men who never enjoy sex with their wives, and guys who insist that they're "bi-sexual" because that sounds a little more palatable to them than "gay."

The most distressing, of course, are the guys who get violent. Especially those who cruise for guys then, after an encounter, insist that they're "Not gay!" and get verbally or physically abusive if anyone suggests otherwise. Yet they keep coming back for more.

Now, I have only read or heard of such guys. I've never met one (that I know of) still in denial or out of denail. So my question is: have any of you met such guys--or known someone who knew such a guy? More particularly, do you think such guys ever see the light? Do they ever finally admit to themselves, "I'm gay"?

What kind of people do they become once they've accepted the truth and are no longer in violent denial? Do they, rather like St. Paul, turn around and become very active in the gay community? And if they never accept it, what happens then? Do they just become more and more destructive?

Any thoughts, stories or observations would be very much appreciated.

 

[John Doe]

How do you tell the difference between someone who is in denial and someone who really isn't gay?

 

[LoboBoy]

How do you tell the difference between someone who is in denial and someone who really isn't gay?

My gaydar is pretty good. Pity I didn't understand myself a bit earlier

 

[3113]

How do you tell the difference between someone who is in denial and someone who really isn't gay?

I'm talking about men who go out, lure some guy who is gay into giving them a blow-job, and then, after they've been sated, insist that they aren't gay--sometimes violently. And then, a month or two later, they do it again. And again. And again.

Call me crazy, but I'd say that they're in denial. Wouldn't you?

And I'd say the same thing about any guy who doesn't enjoy sex with women and tends to cheat on his wife or girlfriend with men for most of his life. At that point, he's protesting a bit too much, methinks.

If, on the other hand, a guy very much enjoys sex with women or has positive relations with both men and women, then I think I'd trust his asserting that he's not gay but rather straight or bi-sexual.

 

[LoboBoy]

There are many guys who are married early and realise later that they are not as straight as they thought. That the urges etc were not "just" that they are extra horny and think about guys as well.

These guys either leave their hetro marriage and live gay lives (as I have).
Or they stay married and cheat on their spouse. (As older guys I know have done)
OR they stay married and repress it all. That has to be tough. Not that my decision was any easier.

As for the freaks who bash their trade once they've cum...Regardless of their motivation or inner sexual turmoil, they are violent sociopaths and need to be locked up or treated.

What’s the difference between a guy who bashes his sexual partners because of some kind of internal homophobia and self loathing and the wankers who beat their wives because of some other internal threat to their manhood or whatever the hell it is that’s ticking them off. There is no difference in my book. What happens to those guys once they accept their homosexuality? I have no idea…I think people who explode violently at others because of some internal bullshit…are always going to find an excuse for that behaviour.

 

[3113]

What’s the difference between a guy who bashes his sexual partners because of some kind of internal homophobia and self loathing and the wankers who beat their wives because of some other internal threat to their manhood or whatever the hell it is that’s ticking them off.

There is a slight difference--it's a difference in fear. A wanker who beats his wife usually does so because he thinks he has something to fear. That she'll leave him for another man, for example, or that she'll mock his manhood. Usually, there's no reality to this fear.

However, the gay guy who gives into an urge, then blames and bashes anyone who implies he's a homosexual, including the guy who make him feel those "forbidden" desires, may have some justification for his fear. Getting murdered, beaten or just ostricized are the risks that any man or woman takes when he/she is labeled as gay--let alone announces it. There really is something to fear. Something big.

I'm not saying the violence is justified, or that if this guy doesn't need jail time or serious psychological help. Nor am I saying that the guy is magically going to change if he admits he's gay. He may still need serious anger management--or a lowering of testosterone levels.

All I'm saying is that while it might be splitting hairs, there is still that bit of difference between the two, and I wonder if that makes any difference at all to how a man changes (if he changes) by coming out and facing that fear head on, facing the worst that could happen to him, rather than trying to run and hide from it.

 

[LoboBoy]

I see what you're saying. I'd imagine facing fear is part of therapy for people like that. But what I'm wondering is whether the violence and irrational rage will find another fear to latch onto...
I guess I'm saying the violence you speak of, seems to come from somewhere deeper than the fear itself.

Lets face it...all of us have fears...I was out of my mind with fear and uncertainty coming to the decision to leave my wife of 10 years and my two little girls to live my life as a gay man...extraordinary fear based on reality of changing forever, the lives of all the people I love most. That manifested in depression and suicidal thoughts...but I didn’t start bashing people.

I think that kind of rage comes from someplace deeper and I wouldn’t place too much hope on coming out and facing the fear as a cure-all. ( I know that's not what you're doing...you're posing questions and I'm just throwing in my 2cents worth )

Interesting questions too...

 

[John Doe]

I'm talking about men who go out, lure some guy who is gay into giving them a blow-job, and then, after they've been sated, insist that they aren't gay--sometimes violently. And then, a month or two later, they do it again. And again. And again.

Call me crazy, but I'd say that they're in denial. Wouldn't you?

And I'd say the same thing about any guy who doesn't enjoy sex with women and tends to cheat on his wife or girlfriend with men for most of his life. At that point, he's protesting a bit too much, methinks.

If, on the other hand, a guy very much enjoys sex with women or has positive relations with both men and women, then I think I'd trust his asserting that he's not gay but rather straight or bi-sexual.

You don't really believe that, do you? Because if you do then you're a moron.

 

[3113]

You don't really believe that, do you? Because if you do then you're a moron.

Believe what? That guys who enjoy sex with women might be hetero or bisexual? Or that guys who keep having sex with men even if they say they're straight might be gay and in denial?

I honestly don't see how believing either of the above makes me a "moron." I'll cop to being naive about the sexual nature of men and women in many respects, which is why I often ask questions like this, hoping for a reasoned and intelligent answer from people who know more than I do, and who can enlighten me.

However, when someone tells me I'm a "moron" for making a potentially naive statement...then I really don't trust their judgement or listen to whatever words of wisdom they have to say. Funny thing about that. But insluting my intelligence just makes me not want to listen or believe you. Which is too bad, because you might have something truthful, honest and important to tell me.

Are you sure you can't address me, my questions and comments with just a little more courtesy...or is it important to you to insult your guests?

 

[3113]

I think that kind of rage comes from someplace deeper and I wouldn’t place too much hope on coming out and facing the fear as a cure-all. ( I know that's not what you're doing...you're posing questions and I'm just throwing in my 2cents worth )

It's a good 2cents worth. I think you have a valid point that if rage is the way a person handles such fear, frustration, depression, etc., then that's probably the way he's going to handle any fear, frustration, depression, etc.

Though, possibly, the intensity of the fear, frustration and depression would have to be at a certain pitch. That is, he might only express such rage toward feelings as intensely terrifying as those he gets at the thought of being outed.

That, by the way, is just a guess. I'm not a psychologist and I've no idea if a guy manifesting such rage might hold off till it hits one particular level--or if it's going to be, as you suggest, symptomatic no matter what the level. There is, certainly, a cultural level that may make some guys feel it's alright to hit other guys, but not women/children. So the husband-in-denial might seem alright with wife and kids, but then lash out at the men he has sex with. Not only because they remind him of an unpleasant truth, but also because they're men and Western culture accepts male-on-male violence.

Just more thoughts on the subject there....

 

[John Doe]

Believe what? That guys who enjoy sex with women might be hetero or bisexual? Or that guys who keep having sex with men even if they say they're straight might be gay and in denial?

Okay, I see what you're trying to do, but that's not what you said.

I honestly don't see how believing either of the above makes me a "moron." I'll cop to being naive about the sexual nature of men and women in many respects, which is why I often ask questions like this, hoping for a reasoned and intelligent answer from people who know more than I do, and who can enlighten me.

However, when someone tells me I'm a "moron" for making a potentially naive statement...then I really don't trust their judgement or listen to whatever words of wisdom they have to say. Funny thing about that. But insluting my intelligence just makes me not want to listen or believe you. Which is too bad, because you might have something truthful, honest and important to tell me.

Are you sure you can't address me, my questions and comments with just a little more courtesy...or is it important to you to insult your guests?

Fine, so ignore me then. It's no skin off my ass. But I'm not going play your little snobbery games. I've fallen for the innocent act before. I feel all guilty about what i said and apologize, then try to explain myself, then you go all ballistic because you didn't like what my advice, and end up calling me much worse things then moron and I end up wishing I had stuck to insulting your intelligence instead of actually giving your ideas more respect than they deserve by actually responding to them as though they made any sense.

 

[John Doe]

There are a lot of dangerous ideas floating around in here about fear and anger, and I'm starting to wonder how some of you have managed to make it to this point without being killed.

 

[3113]

I'm not going play your little snobbery games. I've fallen for the innocent act before. I feel all guilty about what i said and apologize, then try to explain myself, then you go all ballistic because you didn't like what my advice, and end up calling me much worse things then moron and I end up wishing I had stuck to insulting your intelligence instead of actually giving your ideas more respect than they deserve by actually responding to them as though they made any sense.

Dude. I explained things as best I could and asked a question. If you have observations and thoughts and experiences that are relevant, I'll listen. I'm not going to go ballistic if you don't attack me personally. If you do attack me personally, then I kinda think I have a right to take offence.

"Moron" is kinda personal. And again, all you said was "If you believe that you're a moron." BELIEVE WHAT? I scanned what I said. I can't make heads or tails of what you think I believe or what you think is moronic or why what I said would garner that response.

Nor do I understand why anything I've been saying doesn't make sense. You say, "...instead of actually giving your ideas more respect than they deserve by actually responding to them as though they made any sense." More mystification on my part. Are you suggesting that my ideas make no sense? Okay. Fine. Please explain how they make no sense.

I make mistakes, sometimes embrassing mistakes, sometimes stupid mistakes. Sometimes really stupid mistakes. I don't mind if they're pointed out. But I would like them to be pointed out rather than being slapped across the face. I can't fix my mistakes if you just say, "That's moronic!" instead of explaining to me why you feel I said something naive. I can't adjust my ideas to make sense if you won't tell me why they don't make sense.

And I can't apologize for pushing some strange button of yours if you don't let me know that I've pushed it and how and why. You're acting like I've come here, laid a trap and set it off--all planned in advance. All I can say to that is what I said originally, and I thought, respectfully: I'm a writer. I like to write things that are real and true if I can. So I ask questions of people who know more about these things than I do. So I can get them right and maybe make my stories better stories.

How else can ignorant morons become wise and knowledgable?

With all due respect. Honestly and with no ulterior motives. I'm interesting in hearing what you have to say--if you have knowledge and facts about his subject that I don't. And if I have made a serious mistake that needs correcting, so that I don't inadvertantly insult someone else, then by all means, point it out to me. Just, please point it out. Insults and accusations only muddy the waters.

 

[LoboBoy]

There are a lot of dangerous ideas floating around in here about fear and anger, and I'm starting to wonder how some of you have managed to make it to this point without being killed.

Damn straight (no pun)

You go home with a chick and you know you're in control. At worst she'll change her mind and back out of a hook up...

I have a friend who took a guy home and after a few pills at a dance event, my friend passed out during sex. The guy had been pushing for bareback with my smaller friend and was being rough (biting etc). My friend passed out for about an hour and the guy was fucking him the whole time.

Turns out the guy knew he had HIV and my friend prayed to god he did actually use a rubber. He was tested and is fine...but that kind of fucked up stuff seems more common than you'd think.

Why did he try to pass on HIV to a 19yo boy who had befriended him? I have no fucking idea...Just as I have no idea why someone would get blow job in a car park...then proceed to smack the crap out of the guy who just made him cum.

It's twisted and it may have to do with anger, fear and frustration and how they see their own sexuality betraying all they had grown up to believe a real man should be...whatever. I still have a feeling that the way they react to things will always be they way they react. It's like a sociopathic, adult version of a child's tantrum.

Gay bashings happen all the time, perpetrated by twisted men. Gay men are not immune from being twisted and exact their own kind of fucked up torment on the guys around them.

 

[John Doe]

Damn straight (no pun)

You go home with a chick and you know you're in control. At worst she'll change her mind and back out of a hook up...

I have a friend who took a guy home and after a few pills at a dance event, my friend passed out during sex. The guy had been pushing for bareback with my smaller friend and was being rough (biting etc). My friend passed out for about an hour and the guy was fucking him the whole time.

Turns out the guy knew he had HIV and my friend prayed to god he did actually use a rubber. He was tested and is fine...but that kind of fucked up stuff seems more common than you'd think.

Why did he try to pass on HIV to a 19yo boy who had befriended him? I have no fucking idea...Just as I have no idea why someone would get blow job in a car park...then proceed to smack the crap out of the guy who just made him cum.

It's twisted and it may have to do with anger, fear and frustration and how they see their own sexuality betraying all they had grown up to believe a real man should be...whatever. I still have a feeling that the way they react to things will always be they way they react. It's like a sociopathic, adult version of a child's tantrum.

Gay bashings happen all the time, perpetrated by twisted men. Gay men are not immune from being twisted and exact their own kind of fucked up torment on the guys around them.

Okay, so the moral of the story is either don't get drunk with strangers, or gay people can be fucked up, sadistic, homicidal assholes just like the rest of us? Or something in between?

Anyway, your story is a somewhat extreme example, but anyway, I was just saying that some of the ideas put forth about fear and anger are pretty far off. For one thing there seems to be this assumption that any guy who doesn't simply brush off a homosexual advance is probably a repressed homosexual himself. I don't think that's universally true. I know that if someone just started hanging out with me and I thought they wanted to be friends, then they started coming on to me, the duplicity would kinda piss me off, at least at first. Male or female, although I admit a woman's unwanted interest would not piss me off as much as a man's. Not that I'm straight, but I still tend to react to women differently than men, even though I shouldn't just based on gender.

 

[LoboBoy]

Male or female, although I admit a woman's unwanted interest would not piss me off as much as a man's. Not that I'm straight, but I still tend to react to women differently than men, even though I shouldn't just based on gender.

Yeah I agree. Do you think guys can be more full on with their unwanted interest? I generally do.

 

[LoboBoy]

Okay, so the moral of the story is.... gay people can be fucked up, sadistic, homicidal assholes just like the rest of us?

That's it.

 

[John Doe]

Yeah I agree. Do you think guys can be more full on with their unwanted interest? I generally do.

You mean they're more forward? well yes, but I don't think that's why it pissses me off. If anything I think if they tried to be too subtle about it, that would just annoy me even more.

 

[Lunesta]

Do they, rather like St. Paul, turn around and become very active in the gay community?

Wow... I've heard that some interpretations of the Bible are more liberal than others but I've never heard of St. Paul described in quite those terms! What translation of the Bible do you use??

Okay, okay - I'm just kidding. And I really don't have any great understanding of human sexuality which would lead me to make pronouncements as to why some guys repress or deny their homosexuality (we all have heard the various speculations).

But I have heard some gays say that bisexuality doesn't exist - that it is simply a more socially acceptable label than to be identified as gay. I have even heard some suggest that transsexualism is a deeply troubled self-hatred of being gay. I think both of those views are highly insulting to bisexuals and to transsexuals. And I think we have to be careful about imposing our own values or judgements onto others.