Gandalf vs. The Bible

[3113]

Not to get Gandalf in any trouble....

Sir Ian's coming! Hide the hotel Bible!

In a profile by John Lahr in the Aug. 27 edition of the New Yorker, Ian McKellen, who may be occupying a Los Angeles hotel room while he leads the Royal Shakespeare Company in "King Lear" and Chekhov's "The Seagull" at UCLA's Royce Hall, Oct. 19-28, confesses that part of his agenda as an openly gay famous person is ripping the page with Leviticus 20:13 out of the Bible whenever his hotel room comes Scripture-equipped. "It's the one thing I find difficult to defend but do go on doing," confesses the distinguished Shakespearean actor, most widely seen in his Moses-like turn as the warrior-wizard Gandalf in "The Lord of the Rings" film trilogy.

In the King James Version, the verse McKellen excises reads: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." The actor has campaigned for gay rights since coming out publicly on BBC radio in 1988.

At first I wasn't so sure of this--it's hard for me not to react to someone tearing a page out of any book...but then, the idea of Bibles in hotels are that you're suppose to take them, right? So, like the soap and shampoo and such, the Bible is yours if you want it. Which means you can, theoretically, rip out a page if you like. It's your Bible. I'm sure other folk have ripped out pages of a hotel Bibles that inspired them.

Also, the King James is not the best or most unbias translation anyway.

Of course, this raises the question: does the baby go with the bathwater...Biblically speaking? Some would say that if you don't agree with that part, you don't agree with any of it. It's all or nothing. But then, most religions based on the Bible pick and choose, don't they? Leviticus lays out many laws that people routinely disregard or would disagree with if they were made the law of the land.

So, here's the question...any part of a hotel Bible you'd tear out? Or, to be fair, mark for the next reader to read?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'd like to have a big stamp and gold ink;

"THIS IS A WORK OF FICTION"

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Ummm... I don't really think the Gideon Society puts bibles in hotel rooms to be stolen, 3.

I believe the citaton comes from Leviticus and is reiteratted in Deuteronomy. I find this whole discussion pretty strange, acutally. There are a lot of people in the bible who seems pretty gay to me.

 

[English Lady]

Well this will come as no shock but no, there's no part of the bible I'd tear out.

I'd probably put a note in on one of those blank pages you always get at the back though. Take all verses in context, might save alot of heartache.


and verses I'd mark? I've so many but Psalm 139 is my favourite so I'd mark that.


"Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

1 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast."

and 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.

 

[Recidiva]

I consider it more of a bit of humorous rebellion and pretty harmless.

If a hotel presents a bible, it doesn't expect it to be respected, does it? I mean, look what happens to the sheets.

 

[3113]

Ummm... I don't really think the Gideon Society puts bibles in hotel rooms to be stolen, 3.

No?

When the Bibles are taken or become too worn, the local camp of the Gideons will replace them at no charge.

We'll agree that Gideons does not put the Bibles in the hotels specifically to be taken (as compared to just read), but they're clearly not put out if said Bibles *are* taken. (Housekeeping places said Bibles in rooms for Gideon, and I think we can assume that they have extras, just like they have extra little bottles of hand lotion). These Bibles would, therefore, seem to be a freebie religious texts that, like the mint on the pillow, is the guest's if the guest wants it.

 

[Recidiva]

No?


We'll agree that Gideons does not put the Bibles in the hotels specifically to be taken (as compared to just read), but they're clearly not put out if said Bibles *are* taken. (Housekeeping places said Bibles in rooms for Gideon, and I think we can assume that they have extras, just like they have extra little bottles of hand lotion). These Bibles would, therefore, seem to be a freebie religious texts that, like the mint on the pillow, is the guest's if the guest wants it.

I really can't think of any serious harm tearing a page out will do.

Any Biblical scholar that NEEDS that page or the world will end...

Nope, I can't see it.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Frankly, I'm sick enough of hearing from Leviticus that I really rather support his crusade - although I think that perhaps a more amusing one would be to work up a vocal grassroots movement publically hounding politicians for support for other admonishments from Leviticus, like not harvesting the corners of our wheatfields or wearing garments of mixed linen and wool cloth. I'd really like to see that made a matter for the government's attention as well.

 

[jomar]

I find this whole discussion pretty strange, acutally. There are a lot of people in the bible who seems pretty gay to me.

Don't ask, don't tell.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Frankly, I'm sick enough of hearing from Leviticus that I really rather support his crusade - although I think that perhaps a more amusing one would be to work up a vocal grassroots movement publically hounding politicians for support for other admonishments from Leviticus, like not harvesting the corners of our wheatfields or wearing garments of mixed linen and wool cloth. I'd really like to see that made a matter for the government's attention as well.

Have you seen the round crop fields? There are no corners to not harvest...

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Shouldn't this thread's title really be "Magneto Vs. The Bible?"

And shouldn't we ALL be tearing out that passage that says something against masturbation? Or at least the men doing it? Since women can't "spill seed."

 

[3113]

Have you seen the round crop fields? There are no corners to not harvest...

But I gotta know...what was the original reasoning for that law of not harvesting the corners? Was it to leave something for the poor?

 

[3113]

Shouldn't this thread's title really be "Magneto Vs. The Bible?"

LOL! Yeah, but the newspaper quote only mentioned Gandalf. And given that Gandalf spends the first book of LOTR in the company of eight other guys.....

Magneto only has Professor X

 

[MarshAlien]

I saw the title of this thread and decided to see if anyone has Gandalf in the third round. If not, please put me down for twenty bucks.

Seriously, unless I own the book, I can't see tearing something out just because I don't like it. I can choose not to read it, or not to believe it. But I don't think I can legitimately choose to excise it and make that decision for others.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

If you think about it, though, how would that technically be any different than tearing out your favorite passage from it and keeping it because it meant something to you? Then the book would be doing its purpose, albeit not in the usual, Billy Graham kinda way, yey?

 

[MarshAlien]

If you think about it, though

Let's not go overboard.

how would that technically be any different than tearing out your favorite passage from it and keeping it because it meant something to you? Then the book would be doing its purpose, albeit not in the usual, Billy Graham kinda way, yey?

In a way it wouldn't, except that this time I would be depriving someone else of the ability to read something that gave me pleasure. To the extent that there is a difference, it's that I'm not making a judgment for someone else about what they should and shouldn't read.

And I already have two bibles here at home, so the easy way to solve that problem is simply jot down the reference (hotels always have pens and notepads) and look it up when I get home. Or on that Internet thing.

Plus if I put it in my suitcase, one of the shampoo bottles that I'm stealing is likely to break and ruin it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But I gotta know...what was the original reasoning for that law of not harvesting the corners? Was it to leave something for the poor?

That's a question to put to the craigslist religions forum. Seriously, there are several Rabbi types that can give lots of those answers. There is a different reading to the Leveticus line, I've seen it some where there, likewise areas where homosexuality seems to be condoned.

But I betcha that's the why of it... The Old Testament has lots of stuff that sounds stupid if it's gabbled and garbled in reading, but is, in fact, solid common-sense community practice-- as long as your community is the size of a large tribe. It also has lots of stuff that is, simply, gabbled and garbled and stupid. It's plenty fallible.

 

[cloudy]

Frankly, I'm sick enough of hearing from Leviticus that I really rather support his crusade - although I think that perhaps a more amusing one would be to work up a vocal grassroots movement publically hounding politicians for support for other admonishments from Leviticus, like not harvesting the corners of our wheatfields or wearing garments of mixed linen and wool cloth. I'd really like to see that made a matter for the government's attention as well.

I agree. Bring on the burnt offerings.

 

[only_more_so]

Actually, the expectation is that the bible will be left in the hotel room, just as it is expected that the bedding, towels, light fixtures, etc. would be left in the hotel room. Although in this case the expectation is lower, since I am sure that the Gideons would be happy to give a copy to someone who wanted one. They would not be so happy with someone who merely defaces a copy and puts it back. That would be like taking a dump in the toilet and putting back that "Sanitized for your Protection" ribbon.

 

[JamesSD]

As a work of literature, the Bible is fascinating. The Torah (First five books) is a written version of hundreds if not thousands of years of oral history and myths.

Most of the sayings attributed to Jesus are pretty worthwhile, universal morality statements that many believe were heavily influenced by Eastern philosophy. Help the poor, love your fellow man, etc.

The book of Revelations is a bizzarre, trippy, famine/drug induced read.

So yeah, the Bible, like many ancient texts, is wonderful if you don't take it too literally.

 

[Carnevil9]

Sure, just take the Bible out of the hotel room. Why not take a few pictures off the walls, too? And maybe a lamp. They have spares in the basement.

I'll never forget when Cpl. Klinger procured a bunch of Bibles for Fr. Mulcahy, and when the good padre found out where they came from, he exclaimed, "Hot Bibles!?!"

 

[3113]

BOGUS argument Carney!

Sure, just take the Bible out of the hotel room. Why not take a few pictures off the walls, too? And maybe a lamp. They have spares in the basement.

Sorry. Not comparable, no more than comparing it with the sheets and towels. ALL those belong to the HOTEL. Allow me to say that again: To the hotel. The hotel bought and paid for all that stuff. The hotel will have to replace all that stuff if you take it.

The Bible in the hotel however is provided by Gideons:

The Gideons primary purpose has always been personal evangelization conducted by Christian business and professional men. As early as 1900, the organization considered putting Bibles at the front desk of the hotels its members stayed in, but it was not until 1908 that the association voted to place Bibles in all hotel rooms. Within 20 years of the first placement of a Gideon Bible in a hotel room, the association distributed one million Bibles. Because the Gideons so quickly became associated with hotel room Bibles, the association has, at times, had to remind its members that the Bibles are but a means to an end, not an end in themselves. The sole purpose of the group is to win men, women, boys and girls to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ through personal witnessing and the distribution of Bibles and New Testaments.

In short, the hotel has nothing to do with those Bibles except to keep putting them in the hotel drawers if they go missing. Gideons is the one buying, paying for, and providing them to the hotel.

To summarize (in case you still don't get it): the hotel is not providing them for your reading pleasure. The hotel is not providing them so you can find spiritual comfort. The hotel is not providing them AT ALL! A religious group that wants to convert you to Christianity and/or make sure Christians have their Bible wherever they go is providing those Bibles. So. Tossing one into your suitcase and taking it home is not the same as robbing the hotel room of it's lightbulbs, wall paintings, towels or anything else that belongs to the hotel.

It's not stealing at all in fact.

Now you can argue if you like that Gideons isn't giving away those Bibles, just loaning them out to people via the hotel, but I say that if anyone puts religious material in a hotel room, for the purpose of "evangelization" then they really can't complain if someone takes that Bible (or a passage out of that Bible) as it would seem that doing so fulfills their purpose to "win men, women, boys and girls to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ through...the distribution of Bibles and New Testaments."

 

[Recidiva]

I saw the title of this thread and decided to see if anyone has Gandalf in the third round. If not, please put me down for twenty bucks.

Seriously, unless I own the book, I can't see tearing something out just because I don't like it. I can choose not to read it, or not to believe it. But I don't think I can legitimately choose to excise it and make that decision for others.

You pay for the room. The bible is extra. It's a sales tactic.

It's like all the people who deliver mail circulars to my yard that just sit there until I pick them up.

You don't think it's the slightest bit offensive for me as a pagan to have a bible in every room?

Maybe he could request a bible-free room, but do you really consider having the Bible given out as a gift isn't the slightest bit pushy?

What do you think of a group that distributed the Koran or the Bhaghavad Gita to every hotel drawer?

Think they'd all be equally respected?

You want a really good bible to treasure, buy one. Treasure it.

You put your religious symbols out there for everyone to trample, you get trampled religious symbols.

Those bible to me are like the flags left out to tatter in the rain and elements. Essentially disrespectful to they symbol itself, and sales.

 

[3113]

Those bible to me are like the flags left out to tatter in the rain and elements. Essentially disrespectful to they symbol itself, and sales.

Ooo! Harsh words, Recidiva!

I like 'em

 

[Recidiva]

Ooo! Harsh words, Recidiva!

I like 'em

I have never defaced a bible. I wouldn't do so. I have my own Bible and I care for the words I care for.

But really, the Gideons are cruisin'