Free speech: Fact, fad or fallacy?

[MissTaken]

What does "Freedom of speech" mean to you in terms of your real public/professional life?

your personal life?

and lit?

How do you execute your right to speak freely?

Is it different on line than it is in your real time life?

 

[dragonlace]

What does "Freedom of speech" mean to you in terms of your real public/professional life?

your personal life?

and lit?

How do you execute your right to speak freely?

Is it different on line than it is in your real time life?

For me whether here or in real life i tend to be me......those whom i work with know about my kinky tendancies and i tend to not care about who knows about it. I speak freely about almost everything and don't feel judged by most who know me, they accept me as me and have no issues with it.

Of course in certain situations where i might make someone else feel funny about my free speech i tend to curb it. Like my grandmother for instance, she would accept it as a part of who i am but i know its just not something that she can fathom so i don't tend to speak about things that would upset her in front of her.

I feel thats more of a common curtesty to her more than i feel its hiding myself from her. I talk openly in restaurants and in public, even once yelling Master across a store(should have seen the wide eyes of the clerks...lol), but its part of who i am.

As with anything, you don't want to bring up politics with politically motivated individuals when you are not of the same mindset, or talk religion with fanatics, or talk openly about a gay encounter with homophobes. As with all things moderation.

 

[niteshade]

I am not known for my diplomacy. I am the person at work that everyone knows they can count on to tell management how it really is... when the head honchos in New York send out people to do studies and talk with the employees about "employee satisfaction" I am usually the one my bosses send... with a hopeful admonition to be polite. I am that person who is usually honest to the point of being cruel, as I believe that lies serve no one. It doesn't matter to me if I am on Lit (as you all have seen some of my maybe a little too honest posts) or at work, or the supermarket, or in a fancy restaurant. I am going to speak my mind, regardless. I may choose to restrain myself until a later time out of consideration for someone else's feelings, but not from any fear of what might happen to me if I don't.

People ask me how it is that I keep from getting fired when I seem to have no ability to brown-nose, but I think it is just that I usually have a valid point, and most people seem to come to respect the fact that not only do I do a damn good job, but there is always at least one person around who is going to tell them the truth, regardless.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think for me the keyword is authenticity. As a person I have learned it is far easier to be who you are, be open and honest in a way which hopefully does not hurt others but also does not support oppression or injustice to others, and to accept no matter how you appear it is never going to be possible for any one person on this earth to be liked by everyone so you are better off living in a way which you feel happiest with and which enables you to sleep nights. It would be wonderful to be liked by all, but I don't think even the Dalai Lama can feel safe in that assumption.

For the same reason I find it important to be who I am without having a collection of personas which fit various settings and people. I tried it in my early teens out of difficulty in accepting I could not please my parents, friends, and teachers alike by being who I authentically was...so I learned to switch and accentuate the parts of me I felt each group liked at the appropriate time. No wonder I ended up nearly having a nervous breakdown. I made the decision then to be me, acept who I am, and accept others are not always going to nor have to like me. Some do, some don't, but at least they don't have to wonder to much which way I am going to jump at which moment.

For me, being able to speak openly was one of my strongest points as a counsellor. Clients remarked they felt they could trust me, they could expect honesty from me more so than for me to tell them what they wanted to hear, and that enabled them to move forward. I apply that same way to my personal life where I will not agree with a friend out of fear they will not like me anymore. I do not disagree with them to hurt or alienate, the same as I expect they don't do the same to me for such reasons. We are all adults and not everyone will agree with my thinking 100% of the time the same as I won't agree with them 100% of the time...it is life, but does not mean I don't respect or like them anymore....quite the opposite.

Catalina

 

[stephb]

I hid in a closet of my own making for 20 years. I'm making up for that now by being quite active in showing my dislike for the Bush administration's acts against gays, the lack of understanding of the BDSM lifestyle, and what it means to me to be able to finally feel that I can let it all out.

Let's just say that it means more to me than I could ever actually articulate.

I tend to speak my mind with ease. I don't let opinions bother me anymore and follow them up with my own opinions based on facts and my own thinking. I'm SO much more open now than I was a couple years ago. And I'm proud of that.

Bah. Short rant. I'll post something more coherent when I get home from work.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I hid in a closet of my own making for 20 years. I'm making up for that now by being quite active in showing my dislike for the Bush administration's acts against gays, the lack of understanding of the BDSM lifestyle, and what it means to me to be able to finally feel that I can let it all out.

Let's just say that it means more to me than I could ever actually articulate.

I tend to speak my mind with ease. I don't let opinions bother me anymore and follow them up with my own opinions based on facts and my own thinking. I'm SO much more open now than I was a couple years ago. And I'm proud of that.

Bah. Short rant. I'll post something more coherent when I get home from work.

Welcome to the board BTW stephb. It is certainly a nice feeling of liberation when you realise it is okay to speak your thoughts with pride and self knowledge isn't it? I know I personally have felt much better about myself, and achieved a lot more in helping others who have been marginalised since I found my voice and a way to back up my convictions with informed positions. Hope we have an opportunity to know you better over time on the board.

Catalina

 

[Desdemona]

I ride the fence. Professionally, advertising the fact that I'm living an alternative lifestyle is not something that help my career. It's a fact of life. And quite frankly, my private life is just that.... private. I have no problem speaking in appropriate settings about my life, but I choose my audience.


If and when I feel it's necessary to advertise something, I will do so. I did it years ago and took quite an unpopular stance on something that affected my personal life. People came to respect me after a time, but at first I paid a price with my family. They finally came around though.

 

[FungiUg]

I always find it an interesting issue. On the one hand you have "free speech", and on the other, libel laws, political correctness, defamation, and so on. That's not the only dichotomy I see either -- for example, "the land of the free", where personal freedom is held in high regard, but if I do something stupid with my personal freedom and you didn't warn me, then I can sue you.

Go figure.

I think that, like everything, "freedom of speech" is a balancing act. It doesn't mean we can't still practice sensitivity, politeness, caring, discretion.

So for me personally, I am free to tell whoever I wish about my personal life. But I choose who I tell. And I choose what I tell them. In my professional life, that's very little -- I doubt my sexual preferences would have any bearing on my career, but I don't see why anyone needs to know.

With friends and family -- well, some know, and some know more than others. Again, privacy and some couldn't care less ("too much information!"), and some are "oh, that's interesting."

Here on Lit (and other boards)... well, I mostly say what I want to. Sometimes it's inappropriate, and some times I try to stay on topic.

 

[emme]

I respect honesty very much. Tell me the truth and even if I don't like what you said I will respect you for having the "ovaries" to say it. If I am offended I will tell you. I expect the others to do the same I offend them.

Unfortunately I also feel like a hypocrite. I am in medical school and I am sure there is some "Professional Standards Policy" or something that would haunt me if I was too open. Also I would really hate to go on start rounds and find a Dr or a patient that knows too much about me.

 

[noodleslut]

Very interesting topic...

So how is freedom of speech reflected in our lives? And why? Certainly it is one of my options to be very open about choices and lifestyle. It is *legal* after all. Prudent? Perhaps not.

I work in a community where revealing that much information could hurt the business. So I am often quiet about certain topics -- neither denying or confirming. My boss wouldn't be too pleased by certainly revalations. The people working under me would be shocked.

I guess for me the determining factor isn't what is legal for me to say, but what is wise to say. What effect will it have on people that I love? If my choosing speaking freely will hurt them more than it will benefit me, I'll probably defer.

On a private level, I chose openness. If you are my friend and you don't like who I am...well, that's too bad. Guess we aren't such great friends after all. There's more to me than simply lifestyle. I am many other things and if a person close to me can't accept what they consider good with what they consider "different", then we don't have a great foundation to continue the friendship.

So in a nutshell, publicly, I chose anonmity occassionally (sheesh, how many double consonants does that word have?). Privately I primarily chose honestly.

Noodle

 

[Limbhugger]

Freedom of speech is my God given right. It wasn't given to me by men or paper. Wise men interupted, dissected, gave form and function and specifics to it, but it stems from the fundamental rights God bestowed on all of us. Even those who don't believe in God.

It is worth noting that I don't know of other countries that have the affirmation of a Constitution that gaurantees this and other rights. They have laws and such but not blanket coverage of undeniable basic rights.

But like all rights, comes responsibility. Do I have the right to tell my boss he is a fucking asshole? Yep. And he then can fire me and I won't be able to buy groceries for the kids. Not very responsible. Abuse any right by being irresponsible and the strength of that right is eroded. Abuse it enough and the right can be forfeited altogether. As in not yelling "Fire" in a movie theater.

Freedom is speech is also a two way street. A lot of folks get lost here. They want to be able to say whatever they have the right to say and then no one is supposed to challenge them. And when you disagree with them on the prinicple's of their words, they want to say you are trying to stiffle them or infringe on their rights. Funny how the critic suddenly loses the right of free speech when criticizing.

Rights and responsibilities. The foundation for how I live my life. Personal, professional, and on line.

Hugger

 

[Netzach]

I live my SM queer freak life on a need to know basis. But I don't hide in a hole.

I fight like fuck when cornered.

And I believe in the fundamental value of disagreement and discourse.

 

[FungiUg]

I have personal issues with the concept of "rights". (Actually, I have personal issues with the concept of "god given" as well, but that's beside the point.)

Personally I think the concept that "this is a right" is a fallacy, as most of human history has shown. "Rights" are something that are created within an individual society as gifts to each individual. Not all societies regard "free speech" as a right, or many of the other things we take for granted (being able to marry who we want, study what we want, choose our careers, or even have enough food.)

Anyway, what most of our societies give to us in the form of "rights" are hard won personal luxuries. There's a long history of people having faught for those "rights" as a cause. They're not self-evident, instead they are hard won and often at the expense of lives.

I like the word "freedom" (freedom of speech, freedom to marry, etc). I think that shows some appreciation of how valuable it is, valuable enough that in the past, people fought for them. But a "right"... kind of devalues it. (Again, I reiterate, in my opinion.)

Okay, off the soapbox now.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

What does "Freedom of speech" mean to you in terms of your real public/professional life?

your personal life?

and lit?

How do you execute your right to speak freely?

Is it different on line than it is in your real time life?

I am straight up, just like the sig line says, all the time, personally and professionally. In my job, there really isn't a whole lot of room for beating around the bush. I don't beat around the bush with doctors, co-workers, patients or their families, and never have. I believe there is way to tell people things tactfully, but honestly.

It bothers me when people dance around a subject, and never get to the point; or worse, gloss over the truth, or lie by omission. I try to always avoid those sins in my dealings with people.

Here at Lit? What you see is what you get. I talk about my truth, and my opinion, and I am always straight up. There are things I keep private, and things I don't, for reasons that are my own.

I am no different online than I am in real life. What's the point?

~anelize

 

[MissTaken]

Rights and responsibilities. The foundation for how I live my life. Personal, professional, and on line.

Hugger

Yes!

Even in so far as I have explained to my children. When they are grown up , they can say what they want as long as they are willing to take responsilibity for their words and actions. Until they are grown up, I am responsible for them and there are things they will not do.

The facets of MissT that you see on the board are real, here and real life. There are many more facets to her errr me that you won't see on the forums for whatever reasons I may have. I do lean toward diplomacy in my real life interactions and prefer to think before reacting to others. I also try to be tactful as much as possible. I can say what I need to say without being hurtful or crass here and off line.

I feel that free speech is only stifled at lit for me in that I am moderating and feel that moderators should behave with a certain sense of decorum. However, as I choose to define "moderator" by focussing on being "moderate" in my approach, it is not due to having taken on the role. I posted in much the same manner before becoming a mod.

 

[MissTaken]

Further, the thread was started as I have been observing people who may be posturing on the forums, lit's BDSM forum as well as other forums.

I wonder how many use an anonymous forum to vent steam that they cannot blow off during the course of their real time day to day interactions.

 

[lark sparrow]

Not everyone lives moderately in RL... and if they are simply blowing off steam, what of it? Take it or leave it.

What's so wonderful and right about being moderate and average that it should be for all and everyone who touches a keyboard or has a life?

 

[MissTaken]

Not everyone lives moderately in RL... and if they are simply blowing off steam, what of it? Take it or leave it.

What's so wonderful and right about being moderate and average that it should be for all and everyone who touches a keyboard or has a life?

Nothing.

It is just how I choose to do things.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Free speech: Fact, fad or fallacy?

I am straight up, just like the sig line says, all the time, personally and professionally. In my job, there really isn't a whole lot of room for beating around the bush. I don't beat around the bush with doctors, co-workers, patients or their families, and never have. I believe there is way to tell people things tactfully, but honestly.

It bothers me when people dance around a subject, and never get to the point; or worse, gloss over the truth, or lie by omission. I try to always avoid those sins in my dealings with people.

Here at Lit? What you see is what you get. I talk about my truth, and my opinion, and I am always straight up. There are things I keep private, and things I don't, for reasons that are my own.

I am no different online than I am in real life. What's the point?

~anelize

See I knew you were my long lost twin!!! I really cannot be someone I am not...I respect someone who does not agree with me 100% of the time. I hate it when you are speaking to someone and they agree with you, but their face or body language says the opposite...and then you hear what they said they really thought once you were out of sight. I cannot trust people who are like that, and find I am not alone...so I choose to live as I would like others to also be with me...open, honest, and genuine. I will never hold it against someone for not agreeing with me, as many of my friends at Lit and elsewhere know. They do not have to be my parrot to earn my respect and friendship, I do not have to stroke their egos by pretending agreement with all their thoughts to be their friend. No one is perfect and everyone is different, embrace it and them in all their human frailties and imperfections.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Further, the thread was started as I have been observing people who may be posturing on the forums, lit's BDSM forum as well as other forums.

I wonder how many use an anonymous forum to vent steam that they cannot blow off during the course of their real time day to day interactions.

I can relate some to what you say Miss T, but I think it is a minority who act in these ways and not usually regular posters who stay and contribute in a valueable way. The venting may be true for some but that is why for me I always find it better to be 100% who I am on and off line so I don't have to carry baggage from one room to the next. Each person has their way of dealing with emotions, no one way is right or wrong, and some are more equipped to deal with their issues than others, some times better than other times.

Overall though, I find most posters here manage to survive and when someone slips up for whatever reason, there is usually more than one friendly hand willing to catch their fall, especially if it is not normal behaviour for the poster and/or they admit later they had a rough day or whatever. Is one of the reasons I have stayed through good and bad at Lit as it has that community feel where most do not hold grudges or feel a need to use other posters as a punching bag at the end of a bad week....and there are some great discussions albeit they sometimes get a bit heated, at least they show the diversity of views and experiences. Despite moments of despair, it seems I am committed to staying more than I realised.

Catalina

 

[Desdemona]

OK... here's the freedom of speech question for today.

Where does one poster's right to vent, rant, be rude and obnoxious (obviously in the eye of the beholder) end and another poster's right to polite discourse (again in the eye of the beholder) begin?


As an aside:
I think that there is a cultural difference for some here. I, for one, have been accused of pussyfooting around on occasion. Certain rules of polite behavior (norms that my local friends and family all follow) stay with me even when I'm irritated. In conversations with friends from other places, I've found that what I see as polite, they see as pussyfooting. What I find rude, they believe is merely getting to the point without fooling around.

 

[catalina_francisco]

OK... here's the freedom of speech question for today.

Where does one poster's right to vent, rant, be rude and obnoxious (obviously in the eye of the beholder) end and another poster's right to polite discourse (again in the eye of the beholder) begin?


As an aside:
I think that there is a cultural difference for some here. I, for one, have been accused of pussyfooting around on occasion. Certain rules of polite behavior (norms that my local friends and family all follow) stay with me even when I'm irritated. In conversations with friends from other places, I've found that what I see as polite, they see as pussyfooting. What I find rude, they believe is merely getting to the point without fooling around.

That is true too I think Des. I come from a culture where when I grew up if you didn't speak honestly and openly, if you lived one way in one setting, and then displayed another part of you in another location, you were considered untrustworthy or at the best, someone best to avoid. I just feel plain uncomfortable placing myself in a position personally or professionally where I hold back, choose who to be where, present as someone better than others, or go around abusing someone for another point of view. I can express my not sharing that view without abusing, and can still like the person despite differences we may have.

Catalina

 

[Desdemona]

That is true too I think Des. I come from a culture where when I grew up if you didn't speak honestly and openly, if you lived one way in one setting, and then displayed another part of you in another location, you were considered untrustworthy or at the best, someone best to avoid. I just feel plain uncomfortable placing myself in a position personally or professionally where I hold back, choose who to be where, present as someone better than others, or go around abusing someone for another point of view. I can express my not sharing that view without abusing, and can still like the person despite differences we may have.

Catalina

Catalina, I'm not talking about putting on a different face based on who you talk to or where you are. That's dishonest no matter where you come from. Possibly, the fact that you thought I was talking about being "two faced" illustrates my point. We have different communication styles. Neither is better than the other.

I guess my point is, one person's way of speaking honestly and openly can be viewed as being rude by someone from a different cultural background. By the same token, someone who is culturally predisposed to say things in an oblique or overly polite manner may be seen as passive aggressive, weak or "two-faced" when in reality that person is being as straight-forward and honest as the other.

It's hard to explain but it's been a phenomenon I've watched with interest over a period of years. I think it's something to consider when we react to the written words of other posters.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, I'm not talking about putting on a different face based on who you talk to or where you are. That's dishonest no matter where you come from. Possibly, the fact that you thought I was talking about being "two faced" illustrates my point. We have different communication styles. Neither is better than the other.

I guess my point is, one person's way of speaking honestly and openly can be viewed as being rude by someone from a different cultural background. By the same token, someone who is culturally predisposed to say things in an oblique or overly polite manner may be seen as passive aggressive, weak or "two-faced" when in reality that person is being as straight-forward and honest as the other.

It's hard to explain but it's been a phenomenon I've watched with interest over a period of years. I think it's something to consider when we react to the written words of other posters.

And you have demonstrated the differences well as I did not think in terms of two faced at all, is not even a way I think, but I was referring to how many say they are one person at home, at work they present a different part of themselves, and with friends another facet again. It is a holding back of sorts of facets of who you are to present a fragmented self. It is fine for those who are comfortable that way, but I tried it as a mid- teen and just could not do it...was far too complicated and I didn't feel safe. I was always waiting for one of the 3 groups to meet one from the others and let something slip.

And I think I understand the other cultural aspect you refer to, but is also why I have to be who I am and why I try not to judge others for being who they are. Of course if they are abusive in a loud and aggresive way, I am not going to be comfortable with that, and I may see it as unnecessary in some cases, but it does not mean I will necessarily ignore that person from that day forth. Everyone differs at some point and it is difficult to understand why we can't all accept that for what it is. For instance I have a friend who is the complete opposite of me..loud, VERY outspoken to anyone's face, drinks, smokes and swears like a trooper as my mother would say, and little patience for people who try to shaft others as she puts it. Though her way is so opposite to me it is like night and day, we both are close and know we can trust the other long before a lot of other people. I have also worked with women and have friends from various diverse cultures and enjoy the experience and I think what it comes down to is using intuition more so than blatent what the eye sees, and the ear hears. Does that make sense?

Catalina

 

[Desdemona]

Yep. I get it now. I'm slow sometimes..... just like Lit has been today.