fraud in mail in voting - prove it

[Comshaw]

It seems after all the foo fra the donald's supporters have been making about mail-in voting and how fraudulent it is when asked to provide proof of the veracity of their claim, they presented to the court......SURPRIZE! NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE!

"...Journalist Richard Salame, in The Intercept, reports that in response to the Pennsylvania lawsuit, Trump's campaign was asked to show proof that voting by mail encourages voter fraud — and it was unable to."

"The Trump campaign produced a 524-page document in response to Ranjan's request, and The Intercept obtained a copy. According to Salame, the document "contains a few scant examples of election fraud" — but none of them actually involve mail-in ballots..."


The non-redacted portion of the Trump campaign's response consists in large part of news reports and copies of the campaign's open records requests to counties. It contains no new evidence of fraud beyond what local news outlets have previously reported.

Another group opposing Trump's campaign in the lawsuit is Common Cause PA. Salame quotes Suzanne Almeida, the group's interim director, as saying, "Not only did the campaign fail to provide evidence that voter fraud was a widespread problem in Pennsylvania — they failed to provide any evidence that any misconduct occurred in the primary election or that so-called voter fraud is any sort of regular problem in Pennsylvania."



I don't want fraud in the coming election any more than anyone else. So for those here who have continuously whined about the inherent fraud associated with mail-in voting I say: PROVE IT! The donald's campaign seemingly can't. If you can I'll become one of the most ardent and vocal supporters of doing away with it.


A judge asked Trump's lawyers to prove his claims about mail-in voting "fraud" — it did not go well



Comshaw

 

[Saint_Ann]

If and when Biden loses, the examples of voter fraud will be on the front page of every liberal rag in the country.

 

[FGB]

28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...t_missing_in_last_four_elections_143033.html#!

“I really think the only reason vote-by-mail problems are not getting more attention on a regular basis, is that it's kind of an embarrassing problem and people just aren’t paying attention,” says Churchwell. “These numbers of missing ballots demonstrate large voter list maintenance failures and security gaps within the broader mail voting process.”

 

[FGB]

One would think that computer voting would be well established with all known safeguards by now.

But NOOOOOO!

 

[butters]

28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...t_missing_in_last_four_elections_143033.html#!

“I really think the only reason vote-by-mail problems are not getting more attention on a regular basis, is that it's kind of an embarrassing problem and people just aren’t paying attention,” says Churchwell. “These numbers of missing ballots demonstrate large voter list maintenance failures and security gaps within the broader mail voting process.”

28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections
.By Mark HemingwayApril 24, 2020
28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections(Kareem Elgazzar/The Cincinnati Enquirer via AP)

Between 2012 and 2018, 28.3 million mail-in ballots remain unaccounted for, according to data from the federal Election Assistance Commission. The missing ballots amount to nearly one in five of all absentee ballots and ballots mailed to voters residing in states that do elections exclusively by mail.

States and local authorities simply have no idea what happened to these ballots since they were mailed – and the figure of 28 million missing ballots is likely even higher because some areas in the country, notably Chicago, did not respond to the federal agency’s survey questions. This figure does not include ballots that were spoiled, undeliverable, or came back for any reason.


Although there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently, the Public Interest Legal Foundation, which compiled the public data provided from the Election Assistance Commission, says that the sheer volume of them raises serious doubts about election security.

so, in otherwords, ballots were mailed out and a lot of people

a: didn't bother voting
b: didn't receive them as they'd moved
c: didn't use them because they'd died
d: mailed them but they weren't delivered to the count

a: is it legal to choose not to vote? yes
b: if someone moved and didn't receive a ballot and wanted one, it's likely they got on the phone or internet to request one or ask where their one was
c: ---
d: there is no evidence offered for option d.

what the article does show is that up-to-date electoral lists are needed and big numbers of ballots not mailed back opens up room for speculation, however specious
what it suggests is that there's an issue with getting people to vote for elected officials they don't believe with policies they don't care about
and making voting any harder will deter even more people from using ballots mailed out to them

 

[Comshaw]

28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...t_missing_in_last_four_elections_143033.html#!

“I really think the only reason vote-by-mail problems are not getting more attention on a regular basis, is that it's kind of an embarrassing problem and people just aren’t paying attention,” says Churchwell. “These numbers of missing ballots demonstrate large voter list maintenance failures and security gaps within the broader mail voting process.”

You do realize you just made a very powerful argument for mail-in voting NOT being rife with fraud, don't you? Because if they are unaccounted for, then they WERE NOT COUNTED and couldn't be involved in election fraud now could they?

And as far as computer voting, it is more susceptible to fraud than any other type. It would be extremely difficult if not impossible to gather, fill out and return mail-in ballots.

But how many times have you heard of a computer database being hacked? Hundreds? Even the most secure ones get hacked. Paper ballots, either mailed in or in person are the most secure wy to do it.

Comshaw

 

[Lazaran]

FlatulentGasBag probably doesn't have the intellectual curiosity to ask himself why the damning evidence of mail in voting fraud he cited wasn't either presented to or accepted by the court who demanded Trump's lawyers back up their claims.

Much like Trump's lawyers, FGB has nothing but misleading statistics about unaccounted for ballots that butters has already debunked.

Obviously the real goal is to sow seeds of doubt among Trump cultists so that, if and when Trump loses, they will support his refusal to accept the results of the election.

 

[FGB]

Well.

Like the link says NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

If 28 million voting ballots from the polls go missing, all hell is going to break lose from all sides!

Just a Question of mind over matter like this whole silly argument.

If you don't mind what happens to unaccounted for ballots it doesn't really matter does it.

So IF Biden loses by say a thousand votes or ten thousand votes you are going to be happy with the results?

How about a couple of million?

They MIGHT show up some day...

 

[FGB]

Like Trump said... Put on your mask and go vote...early is good.

No problem.

Or mail in absentee.

 

[butters]

i, for one, didn't say i wasn't interested in knowing what happened. having said that, i refuse to jump to the wild conclusions that the majority of those 'missing' - actually, let's be correct here and call them 'unreturned' - ballots were either stolen or disposed of in some unlawful manner. i have no objection to investigations looking into the issue, but there has, to date, been no evidence trump or his team or anyone else has been able to offer as proof. and that's according to the courts.

Like Trump said... Put on your mask and go vote...early is good.

No problem.

Or mail in absentee.

the first? agreed, unless community spread is high and you have health/age issues that might make you more vulnerable

the second? sure, so long as the voting stations in your area haven't been closed down (and many areas have seen just this happening). i believe one poster here told us 9 of the 10 voting stations in their county (? maybe a smaller area but i think they said county) have been closed, which makes getting to the 1 station a real problem for those without access to a vehicle, or for those who don't want to stand in searing temperatures in an endless line, especially if community spread is high

the third? an option, for sure... so long as the post office sorting machines are able to sort all the mail in a timely fashion and missing machines combined with reduced man-hours don't screw it up.

 

[KeithD]

The use of scare tactics doesn't require proof of anything. All you need is a bunch of sheep to scare.

 

[FGB]

FlatulentGasBag probably doesn't have the intellectual curiosity to ask himself why the damning evidence of mail in voting fraud he cited wasn't either presented to or accepted by the court who demanded Trump's lawyers back up their claims.

Much like Trump's lawyers, FGB has nothing but misleading statistics about unaccounted for ballots that butters has already debunked.

Obviously the real goal is to sow seeds of doubt among Trump cultists so that, if and when Trump loses, they will support his refusal to accept the results of the election.

Oh!

A new NICK!

Thank you... I will add it to the list.

And who is your Daddy?!

 

[Lazaran]

Spare us the false concern over "if Biden loses by a few thousand votes" crap.

Both Trump and Biden have to deal with the issue of unaccoumted for ballots, just like Hillary did when she accepted the results of the 2016 election after she lost by a slim margin in three key states.

If Trump doesn't accept the results if he loses and tries to create a constitutional crisis by refusing to step down, all bets are off.

 

[jaF0]

You do realize you just made a very powerful argument for mail-in voting NOT being rife with fraud, don't you? Because if they are unaccounted for, then they WERE NOT COUNTED and couldn't be involved in election fraud now could they?

Unless they were intentionally diverted so that they could not be counted. Perhaps from certain zip codes that were expected to vote a certain way.

Example from the past ....

There are stories that when Coleman Young was up for reelection in Detroit, he had police officers intercept ballot boxes as they arrived at the place where they were to be counted. The story goes that they noted the Precincts and decided which ones could be counted and which were to be diverted.

This has not been proven however.

 

[Klinkster]

This is simple......

If Bidenzeimer wins, It will be declared proof, that there is no such thing as mail-in voter fraud, or any type of voter fraud, for that matter.

If Trump wins, voter fraud will be the cause, and the new battle cry of the left.
Votes will be recounted, and counted again.
Congress will investigate.
The Senate will investigate.

 

[FGB]

This is simple......

If Bidenzeimer wins, It will be declared proof, that there is no such thing as mail-in voter fraud, or any type of voter fraud, for that matter.

If Trump wins, voter fraud will be the cause, and the new battle cry of the left.
Votes will be recounted, and counted again.
Congress will investigate.
The Senate will investigate.

Yet again!

I wish they would do some legislation work for a change.

 

[Wrong Element]

Ballots sent out and never returned are not usually what is meant by "voter fraud." I thought your main concern was people voting more than once and/or by using another person's identity, not votes just disappearing. (Although I never see conservatives worry much about the possibility that someone with homes in different states could potentially vote in both states, probably because of the political persuasion of most people wealthy enough to afford two homes.)

When you're talking about a number like "28 million," the simplest answer — the person who was sent the ballot chose not to send it back — is most likely to be correct.

 

[Klinkster]

Yet again!

I wish they would do some legislation work for a change.

Sure....Legislation is totally possible, with a ‘bridge to nowhere’, or something Stupid, is tossed in!

 

[Sean]

Ballots sent out and never returned are not usually what is meant by "voter fraud." I thought your main concern was people voting more than once and/or by using another person's identity, not votes just disappearing. (Although I never see conservatives worry much about the possibility that someone with homes in different states could potentially vote in both states, probably because of the political persuasion of most people wealthy enough to afford two homes.)

When you're talking about a number like "28 million," the simplest answer — the person who was sent the ballot chose not to send it back — is most likely to be correct.

Also, AOL lost three billion internet access cd's.

 

[adrina]

28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...t_missing_in_last_four_elections_143033.html#!

“I really think the only reason vote-by-mail problems are not getting more attention on a regular basis, is that it's kind of an embarrassing problem and people just aren’t paying attention,” says Churchwell. “These numbers of missing ballots demonstrate large voter list maintenance failures and security gaps within the broader mail voting process.”

That's not voter fraud. That's lack of voter turn out. The same problem that plagues in person voting at the polls. Except by a smaller margin. No one knows what happened to people if they don't show up at the polls to vote. They don't call that voter fraud nor do they think it's something to get excited about.

Now if Jehosefats Farfenugle died 2 years ago and his ballot was turned in - at the polls or in the mail - that's voter fraud. If Jehosefatz Farfenugle's ballot was delivered or forwarded to his estate but never returned - that's not voter fraud.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Mail-in voting presents a unique challenge to Republican candidates.

Congress failed to renew the Voter Intimidation act this year (it has been renewed every year since 1982) so conservatives were counting on hiring off-duty police officers to intimidate people of color at voting precincts.

When ballots are mailed in, it is exceptionally difficult to single out the ballots of non-white voters for "special treatment".

 

[Klinkster]

You seem to think that fraud is Democrat or Republican.
News flash, it’s been both.

 

[PaxNurgle]

If and when Biden loses, the examples of voter fraud will be on the front page of every liberal rag in the country.

Mail in voter fraud will be the reason Biden will lose. This country will not willingly elect Trump a second time, after all he has said and done to our country over the last four years. Despite what you Russian trolls think, Americans are better people than that, and we love our country, our freedoms, and our prosperity more than you give us credit for, and we have all seen firsthand what Trump has done to it. However, I do believe Trump will either effect voter fraud and get away with it, or if he does lose honestly, he will claim voter fraud and try to declare the election invalid. So, yes, there is a possibility he will claim victory by manipulating the mail in vote.

 

[Klinkster]

Bush - Gore and hanging chads will look like little league.

Maybe we will get a ‘do-over’, like New Jersey is getting.

 

[Wrong Element]

There's a distinction between "voter fraud" (an action by an individual, such as voting twice) and "election fraud" such as destruction of ballots or the chicanery of the North Carolina GOP that got an entire congressional race invalidated a couple of years ago.

Voter fraud should be punished when it happens, but it's rare and it's almost impossible to have it happen on a scale that can change the outcome of a race. But election fraud, as we're currently seeing, can be engineered at the highest levels of government.