Four Dead Firemen --- For Endangered Fish?

[Todd]

This is a prime and disgusting example of the essential idiocy of government and the semi-employable people who draw government salaries.

This story first came to my attention on the Fox News Channel last night. It was about a forest fire last month in the Okanogan National Forest near the community of Winthrop, Washington.

I’m going to cover this entire debacle on the program today. Here, though, is a synopsis for those of you who live in areas where mindless talk station program directors haven’t yet added Boortz to their lineups.

A group of firefighters are fighting a relatively small fire. There’s a river running right through the fire area. The firefighters call for a helicopter water drop. Denied. Denied why? Because the river contains some endangered fish and there is a policy against dipping fire-fighting water out of streams or rivers with endangered fish.

While Forest Service and environmental experts were sitting in an air conditioned offices discussing whether or not they would permit a helicopter water drop from this river four firefighters burned to death. Two young men aged 30 and 21. Two young women aged 18 and 19.

Four courageous young lives sacrificed – for fish.

As I said – I saw this on the Fox News Channel last night. There will be more on Special Report with Brit Hume tonight. Question: Did any of you see any coverage of this incident on any other networks last night? Now that it’s becoming a larger news story they’ll probably be forced to pay some attention to it.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Skeptical Inquirer magazine : March/April 2001

Notes of a Fringe-Watcher

Distant Healing and Elisabeth Targ

Martin Gardner

Elisabeth Targ
Tries mighty hard
To convince everybody that
psychics in California can
Heal the sick in Afghanistan.
-
A Clerihew
by Armand T. Ringer


I never cease to be amazed by how easily a set of beliefs, no matter how bizarre, will pass
from parents to children, and on to grandchildren. I suspect that the vast majority of true
believers in every major religion have parents and grandparents of the same faith. It is rare
indeed when sons and daughters make a clean break with strongly held fundamental
beliefs of their parents.

This was brought home to me recently when E. Patrick Curry, a retired computer engineer,
now a consumer health advocate in Pittsburgh, sent me a batch of material about Elisabeth
Targ, daughter of the paraphysicist Russell Targ. Readers of SI will recall how the team of
Targ and his paraphysicist friend Harold Puthoff made a big splash in parapsychological
circles in the 1970s. They claimed to have established beyond any doubt that almost
everybody is capable of "remote viewing," their term for what used to be called clairvoyance.
In addition, they claimed they had validated Uri Geller's psychic ability to remote-view
pictures, and his ability to control the fall of dice by PK (psychokinesis). They sat on the
fence about Uri's ability to bend spoons and keys because they were never able to capture
the actual bending on film. Some parapsychologists called this a "shyness effect."

Russell inherited his psi beliefs from his father, William Targ. When I lived in Chicago I
used to visit the father's bookstore on North Clark Street, a store he opened when he was
twenty-two. It had a large section devoted to books about the paranormal and the occult.
After working for a time as an editor for World Publishing Company, in Cleveland, Targ
moved to Putnam in Manhattan where he rose to editor-in-chief. His entertaining
autobiography, Indecent Pleasures, was published in 1975. At Putnam Targ was
responsible for many best-sellers, including Erich von DŠniken's notorious Chariots of the
Gods. (In his autobiography Targ calls it a "quasi-scientific" work on archaeology.) Under his
editorship Putnam also published a raft of books about psychic phenomena, such as Susy
Smith's Book of James in which she reports on channeled messages from the spirit of
William James. Targ died in 1999, at age ninety-two. His original name was William
Torgownic, taken from his parents when they came from Russia to settle in Chicago where
he was born.

William Targ's beliefs in the paranormal trickled down to his son Russell, and now they
have descended on Russell's attractive and energetic daughter Elisabeth. Her mother Joan,
by the way, is the sister of chess grandmaster Bobby Fischer. Elisabeth is a practicing
psychiatrist with an M.D. from Stanford University, and psychiatric training at UCLA's
Neuropsychiatric Institute. Ms. Targ is firmly convinced that persons have the power to use
psi energy to heal the sick over long distances even when they don't know the sick but only
see their photographs and are given their names.

Elisabeth first participated in psi experiments when she was a teenager. On page ninety-six
of The Mind Race (1984), a book by Russell Targ and his former psychic friend Keith Harary,
Elisabeth is identified as a medical student at Stanford, and an "experienced
psi-experimenter and remote viewer." In 1970 she took part in a series of what the authors
call successful experiments with a psi-teaching machine. She is said to have recently
obtained degrees in biology and Russian.

The authors describe a curious experiment in which Elisabeth correctly predicted in
September 1980 that Reagan would win the November election for president. Here is how
the test worked.

Ms. Targ's friend Janice Boughton selected four objects to represent the four possible
outcomes of the election: Carter wins, Reagan wins, Anderson wins, or none of the above.
Each object, its identity unknown to Elisabeth, was put in a small wooden box. Boughton
then asked Ms. Targ, "What object will I hand to you at twelve o'clock on election night?"

Elisabeth then predicted the election's outcome by remote-viewing the object she would be
given. Her description of the object was white, hollow, conical, with a string attached to the
cone's apex. The object that correlated with Reagan's victory was a conical shaped whistle
with a string attached to one end.

Of course six weeks later Ms. Targ had to be handed the box with the whistle. Otherwise, as
the book's authors put it, the initial question would have been meaningless.

A similar test of Elisabeth's ability to remote-view a future event involved a horse race at Bay
Meadows. On the night before the race, six objects, unknown to Ms. Targ, were assigned
numbers that corresponded with numbers on the six horses in the race. As before,
Elisabeth was told that at the end of the race she would be given the object that correlated
with the winning horse.

Ms. Targ predicted the race's outcome by visualizing something hard and spherical that
reminded her of an apple and was transparent. One of the objects was an apple juice
bottle. It had been assigned the number on a horse named Shamgo. Shamgo won.
Naturally, after the race Elisabeth had to be handed the apple juice bottle to make sense of
the experiment.

What a skeptic would like to see would be a transcript of everything Elisabeth said when
she was describing the target. Did she say much more than the remarks quoted by her
father and his coauthor? If so, there may have been a selection of just those remarks that
seemed to describe the target. But I'm only guessing. Also, were there similar tests that
failed? One in four, and one in six, are not low probabilities.

There is more about Elisabeth in the book. In May 1982 she and her father conducted a
workshop at the Esalen Institute during which successful remote vision tests were carried
out with Ms. Targ participating.

Elizabeth Targ is now the acting director of the Complementary Medicine Research Institute
(CMRI). It is part of the California Pacific Medical Center (CPMC), in turn part of the University
of California School of Medicine. Her institute is devoted to investigating such alternative
forms of healing as acupuncture, acupressure, remote healing, therapeutic touch, herbal
remedies, meditation, yoga, chi gong, guided imagery, and prayer. The institute's literature
does not mention homeopathy, reflexology, iridology, urine therapy, magnet therapy, and
other extreme forms of alternative healing. Apparently they are too outlandish to merit
investigation.

In 1998 Ms. Targ received $15,000 from the Templeton Foundation, an organization
established by billionaire John Templeton, an evangelical Presbyterian who showers cash
on persons and organizations he thinks are promoting religion. His interest in Ms. Targ's
institute springs from her research supporting the healing power of prayer.

In a speech on distant healing that Ms. Targ gave at the Second Annual International
Conference on Science and Consciousness, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, April 29-May 3,
2000, she reported that the National Institutes of Health (NIH) now provides funds for
research on "distant mental influence on biological organisms." Of more than 135 studies
of distant healing on biological organisms, she said, about two-thirds reported significant
results. One fascinating study, she added, concerned remote healing of tumors on mice.
The study showed that the healers who were farthest from the mice had the greatest
influence in shrinking the tumors!

Ms. Targ has received $800,000 from the Department of Defense to head a four-year study
of the effects of alternative healings on patients with breast cancer. The complementary
healings include yoga, guided imagery, movement and art therapy, and others. "We are
getting told that we can't study this," she said, "but the beauty of the scientific method is that
we can. We can determine if it works-and if so, for whom and how."

CRMI's main achievement so far is a six-month double-blind study of the effects of remote
healing on forty patients in the San Francisco Bay area who had advanced AIDS. Forty
practicing healers were recruited for the study from healing traditions that included
Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Native American shamans, and graduates of "bioenergetic"
schools. They were given photographs of the AIDS victims, their first names, and their blood
counts.

For an hour every day, over a ten-week period, the healers directed their psi energy to the
patients by using prayer or meditation. The experiment was supported by the Institute of
Noetic Studies, founded by astronaut Edgar Mitchell, a true believer in all varieties of psychic
phenomena, including the powers of Uri Geller, and by New York City's Parapsychology
Foundation.

Ms. Targ and three associates reported the results of the experiment in a paper titled "A
Randomized Double-Blind Study of the Effects of Distant Healing in a Population with
Advanced AIDS." It was published in the prestigious Western Journal of Medicine
(December 1998). The authors claim that the twenty AIDS patients who received the healing
energy (without knowing they had been selected for such treatment), showed significantly
better improvement than the twenty patients in the control group who did not receive the
energy. As one report summarized the progress of the group receiving the energy, they had
"fewer and less severe new illnesses, fewer doctor visits, fewer hospitalizations, and
improved mood."

The NIH, through its National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM),
has provided funding for Ms. Targ to conduct a three-year study of distant healing on 150
HIV patients. The funding for the first year alone is $243,228, with a starting date of July 1,
2000. The NCCAM has also funded a four-year project to study the effect of distant healing
on persons with a brain tumor called glioblastoma. The starting date was September 18,
2000, with a first-year grant of $202,596. Both studies, Ms. Targ said, will be double blind. It
looks as though Ms. Targ, over the next few years, will be receiving more than two million
dollars of government funds for her research on remote healing, the cash coming from our
taxes.

Ms. Targ is the author of "Evaluating Distant Healing: A Research Review," published in
Alternative Therapies (Vol. 3, November 1997), and in the same issue, "Research in Distant
Healing Intentionality Is Feasible and Deserves a Place in Our Healing Research Agenda."
The executive editor of Alternative Therapies is Dr. Larry Dossey, who started the distant
healing research with his 1993 book Healing Words: The Power of Prayer and the Practice
of Medicine.

Although Ms. Targ is firmly persuaded that distant healing works, she confesses that no
one has any notion of how a healer and healee can be connected over long distances. She
closes the second paper just cited with these words: "The connection could be through the
agency of God, consciousness, love, electrons, or a combination. The answers to such
questions await future research."

Russell Targ's first book, Mind Reach, coauthored by Puthoff, is about their tests of remote
viewing when they worked for SRI International (then called the Stanford Research Institute).
Margaret Mead wrote the book's introduction. Targ's second book, Mind Race, was written,
as I said earlier, with psychic Keith Harary. His third book Miracles of Mind: Exploring
Nonlocal Consciousness and Spiritual Healing, published in 1998 by World Library, is
coauthored with Jane Katra, a psychic healer.

The first half of Miracles of Mind covers the history of remote viewing, including high praise
for Upton Sinclair's book Mental Radio about his wife's ability to remote view his drawings.
The second half of Miracles of Mind is about psychic healing. Targ believes that such
healing, especially healing at a distance, is related to the "interconnectedness" of all things
by a quantum field such as the nonlocal field of David Bohm's guided wave theory of
quantum mechanics.

Miracles of Mind is a strange book. Some chapters are written by Targ, others by Jane Katra.
In a few chapters it is hard to tell who is writing. Almost every person engaged in
parapsychological research is favorably mentioned, including such far-out paranormalists
as Jule Eisenbud, Andrija Puharich, Jeffrey Mishlove, Joe McMoneagle, and many others.

Katra owes an enormous debt to theosophy. She speaks admiringly of Madame Blavatsky,
theosophy's founder, as well as England's leading theosophists Annie Besant and Charles
Leadbeater. I could hardly believe it, but the book cites (page 94) Occult Chemistry, a weird
1898 book by Besant and Leadbeater which describes Leadbeater's clairvoyant probing of
the interior of atoms. He is actually credited with having first discovered by clairvoyance that
hydrogen has three isotopes!

Miracles of Mind takes seriously such paranormal phenomena as out-of-body travel,
near-death experiences, chakras (imaginary energy points in the human body), the Akashik
Records (on which all Earthly events are recorded), the visions of Edgar Cayce, and the
paranormal powers of Philippine psychic surgeons (to which Katra devotes an entire
chapter). There are favorable references to The Course in Miracles, a monstrous, vapid
tome said to have been dictated by Jesus. Also mentioned without criticism are the powers
of Arigo, Brazil's famous psychic surgeon who operated with his "rusty knife" on thousands
of patients, following instructions whispered in his left ear by a dead German physician.

Targ credits Jane with having stimulated a seemingly miraculous remission of what had
been diagnosed (by whom?) as metastic cancer. "I have been well for the five years since
Jane did healing treatments with me," Targ writes. "We will never know if I actually had
metastic cancer, or if it was a misdiagnosis. What we do know for sure is that Jane's
interactions with me saved me from chemotherapy, which quite likely would have killed me.
. . . Did they [his doctors] tell a well man that he had a terminal disease, or did a man with a
terminal disease recover through the ministrations of a spiritual healer?" Targ has no doubt
that it was Jane Katra who healed him.

The following paragraphs from one of Patrick Curry's letters sum up well the distant healing
trend in which Ms. Targ is playing so prominent a role:

The rise of Elisabeth Targ's distant healing studies is not a mere
example of defective science leaking into medicine . . . it is a leading
wedge of a nascent mystical movement that has been gathering
tremendous steam in recent years. The parapsychological enterprise
has taken on a new life in its alliance with alternative medicine and the
consciousness movement. What we have is a very productive alliance
of parapsychologists, old-fashioned mystics, new-fashioned mystics,
and psychedelic mystics that has gotten a major foothold in medicine.

Their presence is extraordinarily strong within NCCAM (National Center for
Complementary and Alternative Medicine) and other alternative-oriented
sections of NIH (National Institutes of Health). There is a growing presence
at dozens of major medical schools, especially Harvard. . . . They have
primary devotion not to the ethics of science but to their own belief that they
have a mission in serving the New Consciousness. Distortion, and
exaggeration of all sorts, are ignored in devotion to their belief in the new
paradigm.

 

[sexy-girl]

it is a horrible story the person who denied the request will have to live with that for there whole lives ... so i feel sorry for them too

 

[WriterDom]

Four people did die and probably needlessly, but it wasn't because you can't take water out of an endangered stream. There was some mix up over who has authority to grant such a request. Sounds like it was taken away from the folks on the ground. But more info will come out later. Wasn't too cool to point fingers at Dixon about it. Almost like Nogod starting threads calling me Hitler.

 

[Todd]

Four people did die and probably needlessly, but it wasn't because you can't take water out of an endangered stream. There was some mix up over who has authority to grant such a request. Sounds like it was taken away from the folks on the ground. But more info will come out later. Wasn't too cool to point fingers at Dixon about it. Almost like Nogod starting threads calling me Hitler.

DCL's post above shows his utter disdain for the 4 humans who lost thier life in the article i copied.

 

[Markov Cain]

DCL shows his disdain for all of us all the time anymore.
Must be tough being the smartest guy on the board.
The wittiest.
The best writer.
Best child pornagrapher.
etc. etc. etc.
Just ignore him.
But you're used to that, being his favorite target and all.

 

[Never]

Do you really believe that Todd?
Do you think that DCL doesn't care that people died?

Because if you do you're more delusional than even I thought.
Personally, I think that your second thread shows a bit more distain, using the death of four people to insult someone you dislike doesn't show much respect.

Cain:
"Best child pornagrapher. "
Juvenile.

 

[sexy-girl]

todd i think most likely DCL was posting those news stories after all of your news posts too "protest" at you posting news stories ... i doubt he even read this news story ... im not picking sides or anything ... im just saying

 

[Markov Cain]

Oh yeah and DCL's being the adult...

 

[Siren]

Very true Never but then

 

[Never]

Did he call you a child pornographer?
Did he ever imply that you've done something illigel or immoral?

 

[Todd]

Do you really believe that Todd?
Do you think that DCL doesn't care that people died?

Because if you do you're more delusional than even I thought.
Personally, I think that your second thread shows a bit more distain, using the death of four people to insult someone you dislike doesn't show much respect.

Cain:
"Best child pornagrapher. "
Juvenile.

I am not the one who posted Atheist World Publication Distant healing is fake and Atheist World Publication Stigmata silliness on a post dealing with a loss of life. But of course only everyone else is allowed to call people on things, I am not, my bad. I am such a mother fucking white trash elitist, baptist child rapist whore dog asshole for stepping out of line.

 

[lavender]

 

[Never]

Todd, you didn't 'call' Dix on anything.
You said that he didn't care about the life of four people.

There's a difference.

 

[Problem Child]

Another example of what happens when you give a government agency like the EPA too much power:



Norton Releases Water to Klamath Basin Farmers


AP
Officials inspect the headgate to upper Klamath Lake in Klamath Falls, Ore.
Tuesday, July 24, 2001


Email this Article
PORTLAND, Ore. — Hoping to relieve Klamath Basin farmers and ranchers whose fields are drying up in the summer heat, the government agreed Tuesday to release a small amount of water into an irrigation canal that had been shut off to protect endangered fish.


"It is going to be too late for most people, but it may be able to save hay and alfalfa," said Chris Matthews, spokesman for Sen. Gordon Smith, R-Ore. "It will help some."



AP
Interior Secretary Gale Norton announces Tuesday that water in Klamath Falls Basin will be released.
The water release was announced by Interior Secretary Gale Norton, who said the decision was made in part to defuse tensions among farmers who four times have illegally pried open the head gates to let water flow into irrigation canals.

The water will not be enough to save all crops on more than 1,000 farms served by the Klamath Project. The amount released will represent only about 16 percent of what normally flows through the canal in a dry year.

In April, the government shut off water to 90 percent of the region's farms in April to protect endangered sucker fish in Upper Klamath Lake and threatened coho salmon in the Klamath River. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced last week that there was more water than expected in the lake.

The basin, which straddles the Oregon-California line, has been plagued by a drought that has tribal fisheries, environmentalists, farmers and ranchers all arguing that they should be given the scarce water.

David Solem, manager of the Klamath Irrigation District, said the release would be too little, too late to save crops this year.

"You just don't start irrigating three months late and expect that anyone is going to get a tremendous amount from it," he said. "We're keeping things from totally bailing."

http://www.foxnews.com/index.html

 

[sexy-girl]

i never actually read DCL's news post and i still havent


but i can actually see why todd is angry considoring his relgious beliefs and considoring the "beliefs" of the magazine quoted


but todd step back abit and think im sure DCL didnt considor his actions like that


(i hate seeing people being angry)

 

[Siren]

Well then you are at the wrong site, cuz that is all there is lately

 

[Todd]

Todd, you didn't 'call' Dix on anything.
You said that he didn't care about the life of four people.

There's a difference.

i called him on it, I pointed out how much he didn't care about life by posting his Athiest World publication so that none would even care about the deaths after seeing his post. So yes you, and DCL, and Lavender, and Siren are right I am the God damn, Sheep screwing white trash, whore dog, elitist baptist gangrine infested asshole.

 

[Never]

I enjoy it myself.
I haven't seen the board change that much in the year I've been here.

 

[Siren]

Stop the melodramatic characters that noone is calling you

 

[Never]

i called him on it, I pointed out how much he didn't care about life by posting his Athiest World publication so that none would even care about the deaths after seeing his post. So yes you, and DCL, and Lavender, and Siren are right I am the God damn, Sheep screwing white trash, whore dog, elitist baptist gangrine infested asshole.

No, you're just a sad, bitter young man.
Your post was first, if anyone cared to respond to it he didn't stop them from doing so.

 

[Bigdog]

Well, if Todd cares so much about the four dead firefighters maybe he could get the fucking facts straight. They didn't die because of anything to do with water. They were doing mop-up work after the fire was contained; conditions radically changed and the blaze came back to life like a inferno. Nineteen firefighters had no choice but to deploy their "shake and bake" tents, four didn't survive despite the tents being rated for 600 degrees. They did everything right and still perished. You can't blame this on anything but life. I take pride in the men and women who put their lives on the line for the sake of the rest of us. Don't use their death to further your own paranoid agenda.

I can handle ignorance, stupidity pisses me off.

 

[Problem Child]

Bigdog- it seems pretty obvious that helicopter water drops that could have saved these people were delayed due to environmental regulations and red tape.


Endangered Fish Policy May Have Cost Firefighters' Lives

AP

Firefighters struggling to contain a blaze in central Washington State that ultimately killed four of their own were hampered in their efforts by a federal policy to protect endangered fish, Fox News has learned.

Firefighters were unable to douse the deadly fire in Okanogan National Forest in Winthrop, Wash., in July because of delays in granting permission for fire-fighting helicopters to use water from nearby streams and rivers protected by the Endangered Species Act, according to sources close to the fire.

Firefighters Tom L. Craven, 30, Karen L. Fitzpatrick, 18, Devin A Weaver, 21, and Jessica L. Johnson, 19, burned to death while cowering under protective tents near the Chewuch River, home to protected species salmon and trout. Seventeen other firefighters survived the ordeal.

Forest Service policy in the Northwest requires that special permission be obtained before fire helicopters can dip into certain restricted rivers, lakes and streams. The fear is that the dippers could accidentally scoop up protected species of fish.

A 17-member team from the Forest Service and other federal agencies is now investigating whether the four firefighters died as a result of the policy.

Rep. Scott McInnis, R-Colo., chairman of the House Subcommittee on Forests & Forest Health, said the committee is also looking into allegations that environmental policy and bureaucracy were factors in the deaths.

AP
Testifying before the committee Tuesday, USFS Fire Chief Dale Bosworth said that under standard procedure, firefighters would have used the Chewuch water to fight the fire and addressed any environmental violations or restrictions after the fire was extinguished. He said he was investigating why dispatch waited for approval before sending the helicopters.

"We get the water where we can get it and ask questions later," Bosworth said.

Forest Service District Commander John Newcom told Fox News last week that the Chewuch River’s population of salmon, steelhead trout and bull trout are all considered when fighting fires, but insisted helicopter permission was never delayed or denied because of the policy.

But the USFS reversed that position Tuesday with the release of a timeline of events that depicts the harrowing plight of a band of very young, inexperienced firefighters waiting desperately for helicopter relief that never came.

According to the timeline, the first team of firefighters, an elite crew called "Hot Shots," had contained what came to be known as the "30-mile fire" by the very early morning and requested a helicopter water drop at 5:30 a.m. However, they were told one would not be available until 10 a.m.

At 9 a.m., the Hot Shots were replaced with a young "mop-up" crew expecting helicopter relief to arrive within the hour.

When the mop-up crew inquired about the missing helicopter just after noon, the dispatch office told the crew field boss that helicopters could not be used in the area because the Chewuch River contained endangered fish. Final permission to use Chewuch water wasn’t granted until 2 p.m.


Jan Flatten, the environmental officer for the Okanogan and Wenatchee Natural forests, confirmed that environmental concerns caused crucial delays in dispatching the helicopter.

"At 12:08, the dispatch office ordered the helicopter," Flatten told Fox News. "However, because there are endangered species in the Chewuch River, they wanted to get permission from the district in order to dip into the river."

However, the dispatch office could not reach anyone at the district with the authority to approve the helicopter drop. Flatten said those authorities — Newcom, Fire Manager Peter Sodoquist and the Methow Valley biologist — were actually meeting during that time to approve an exemption to the policy.

"That time lag of about two hours was when they were trying to locate someone with the authority to tell them they could go ahead and take water out of the Chewuch River," Flatten said.

The USFS did not explain why the intra-agency team required to approve an exemption did not convene until 12 p.m., two hours after firefighters had been told the helicopter would be available.

Two former USFS firefighters familiar with the Thirty Mile Fire said getting permission to dip into the Chewuch caused the delays that led to the death of their colleagues

"(The crew) were told that (the Chewuch River) was a protected water source and they needed to go through channels to use this water source," one of the former firefighters told Fox News

The first load of helicopter water was dumped on the fire around 3 p.m., but the fire was by then out of control. An hour later, air tankers had to be turned back and the ground crew fled on foot to the river where they deployed their survival tents. The crew was completely surrounded by the flames with no avenue for escape.

Fox News' William LaJeunnesse and Robin Wallace contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31019,00.html

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Hey AJ, Markov, Carville and the rest of your personalities, It's truly an ugly thing to see you get so pissed at Dix because his hot beef injection needle is larger than yours.

LOL I don't know what that means, but it's funny.

Todd, screw the bolts in a little tighter and listen carefuly. It was clear to me (very, very clear) that the only reason you posted this article (among many, many other articles you shit here regularly) was not to honor Firemen, but to make a lop-sided slur againt those Wacky Liberal Mushroom-Eating Environmentalists, and my pompous read-me-cause-I-want-to-force-feed-you-my-opinion article post was a sarcastic response to yours, so don’t give me any Hi-dee Hi-dee-Ho bullcrap about who loves humanity more, you super-preemo-maxi-dweeb.

And BigDog confirmed what I already knew, that once again you ignore selected facts just to make the story fit better into your silly Conservative agenda.

 

[lavender]