Forms, freeverse, flights of fancy, and the beginning poet

[KillerMuffin]

I think the majority of the poetry at Lit, like 99% of it, is in the freeverse form.

I've recently had a discussion with daughter about forms and freeverse.

daughter told me how one girl she knew wrote nothing but strict forms for a year before her teacher allowed her to use freeverse. daughter said that this girl's freeverse was wonderful because of it.

I'm pretty much of the same opinion. I think that learning to write poetry while restricted to forms teaches a person to be a better poet overall. It teaches us to be true to whatever devices the form requires. It teaches us to respect rhyme and meter. I think it also teaches us to respect the words themselves.

I've seen some pretty green poetry around here, including my own, where rhyme butchered the poem, where a verb was dropped at the end of the line for no other reason than to fit meter or rhyme. And this is from people with tons of poetry under their respective belts.

My plan is to write nothing but forms for a few years. I'm also going to learn devices. Actually, I think I'll learn the jargon first. I'm involved in the pantoum right now and I must say that it's been really good for me.

What do you think, as a road to learning poetry through writing, forms only or whatever fits your fancy? Why do you think it?

Naturally massive reading of poetry other than my own is required.

 

[WickedEve]

I came to lit rhyming up a storm! I knew no other way. Then daughter mentioned pantoum, villanelle, haiku and other strange, scary words to me. Then I found free verse. I love it, but at times, those poems are hit and miss. Recently, I decided that I needed to learn a heck of a lot more. I've limited myself to just free verse. I won't stop doing free verse, but I do like the idea of learning all forms before settling down to just doing whatever I like. It's like retirement. Work first, then you can enjoy yourself.
But KM, I don't think you should just limit yourself to forms only. You should take an occasional break and get crazy and creative. You learn from that, too!
By the way, I agree with massive reading of poetry. I really need improvement in that area.

 

[karmadog]

I'm with you KM. I've been struggling with poetry for almost a year now. Not so much the writing of it as the reading of it. Poets write so often for each other rather than others that they seem to have created a system of shorthand symbolism that cannot be understood without a large reading background. I mean that they reference other poems and styles in their work that must have been read and understood before the poem you're reading can be understood.

Then there is the huge amount of jargon. Cursed academics.

 

[KillerMuffin]

No can do, WE. I don't think that freeverse allows "crazy and creative" any more than any other form because it's so difficult to do well. Freeverse is the most difficult form to master because it's the easiest to do badly. And yes, most of us do it badly.

I think baby steps.

I want to learn meter so that it's more instinctual and not contrived. I want to learn rhyme that's subtle and powerful, not blatantly obvious. I want to learn to manipulate words so that two of them will create an image as powerful as whatever haphazard freeverse I've written now does. Form teaches one master of line breaks.

I do mediocre freeverse. In fact, I hazard a guess that at best we all do mediocre freeverse. I think that sticking to freeverse stifles one's growth as a poet. No solid rules prevents one from learning to be crazy and creative in any atmosphere. I don't have to have lack of a strict structure to be crazy or creative. I never needed that.

I don't call climbing the Mount Everest of poetry freedom. And that's what freeverse is, the Mount Everest of poetry. Only worse because mastering it will not teach one to be crazy and creative in a more structured environment.

I'm an overachieving perfectionist with patience. I will wait to master freeverse until I've mastered other, easier, poetry.

 

[Sweetwood]

rhymes

Is it not interesting that a bad poem with rhymes and meter is the worst butchers work. It is much worse than a bad free verse.

I believe that exercising ones abilities by attempting strict form on a subject randomly chosen is the best exercise. Wordsmithing is an art that requires familiarity with the tools of it's trade. Self induced apprenticeship so to speak.

Also making a completely unexciting subject work in strict form makes the author concentrate on form not content. The results re often astonishing.

Sweetwood

 

[WickedEve]

Forget crazy and creative. I was thinking sex, not poetry.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll Master whatever you set out to learn, KM.

edit: I just realized that you may have misunderstood what I meant. I was talking about being creative and crazy with images, and interesting descriptions, and phrases. I know you want to concentrate on form and other things. But I was simply saying to take a break sometimes and enjoy the thrill of writing a poem and expressing yourself.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Rhyme and meter are devices. They aren't particular to form. Freeverse is a form where rhyme and meter are often ignored or misused. Usually worse than in another form.

The difference is that the freeverse form is unstructured and other forms are not.

I hate to say this, but I have no idea what you're talking about, WE. None of what you said is restricted to freeverse. I find it far more difficult to express myself in freeverse than in structured forms.

 

[WickedEve]

Personally, I find free verse the easiest way to express myself.

To me, a sonnet for example, takes a lot of work. You have to have a certain number of lines, etc. Sometimes, I don't want to fool with that. I just want to write a poem and enjoy myself. Sometimes the words flow so quickly that I can't keep up with them. And at those times, I come up with all sorts of interesting phrases and images. Maybe it's just me. But when I'm concentrating on writing a sonnet, or pantoum, or villanelle... sometimes I'm less creative.

And if you still don't get what I'm saying, then we are in the same boat... and the boat is drifting. I better stop for the night before I drift out to sea. lol

 

[KillerMuffin]

I see.

I'm a very flexible writer. I can write everything from novels to short stories well. In just about any genre or category or niche you could come up with. I'm working on that with poetry.

I don't find the forms restricting in my creativity at all. I find them challenging instead. It's easy to let it flow, it's too embarrassing to let if flow and come up with nothing but mediocrity. I'd like a gem amongst the crap every once in a while.

 

[WickedEve]

I see.

I'm a very flexible writer. I can write everything from novels to short stories well. In just about any genre or category or niche you could come up with. I'm working on that with poetry.

I don't find the forms restricting in my creativity at all. I find them challenging instead. It's easy to let it flow, it's too embarrassing to let if flow and come up with nothing but mediocrity. I'd like a gem amongst the crap every once in a while.

I agree. But I don't post every "flowing" poem I write. I write poetry about my kids that's really cute, but I wouldn't share it like I do with some of my poems. But I still enjoyed the hell out of writing it.
And KM, you have had some gems in your crap! lol Recently, I found a Cubic Zirconia in mine.

 

[Angeline]

Art + Craft

When I was in college (o glorious days), I was lucky enough to take a full-year Shakespeare course (o even more glorious) with a wonderful teacher. When our first paper was assigned, I recall her telling us something like "If you want to posit that Shakespeare really meant that King Lear was floating in outer space on an umbilical cord that's fine, but you better make sure you understand enough about the history behind the play and what standard English was in early 17th c. London if you want to back up your hypothesis." (It was one of her funnier moments.)

Point taken however. Exposure to traditional forms is the foundation that allows thoughtful experimentation. I love free verse and I don't intend to stop writing in it: my voice feels most comfortable there. However, I think that practicing writing in traditional forms in an important discipline for writers. This board has been a helpful catalyst for that, what with the various contests and challenges that encourage working with proscribed form.

 

[WickedEve]

Re: Art + Craft

However, I think that practicing writing in traditional forms in an important discipline for writers. This board has been a helpful catalyst for that, what with the various contests and challenges that encourage working with proscribed form.

Since late last year this board has been my classroom.
Last night, KM inspired me to study more. I realized that I've become too comfortable with free verse, and that I had stopped trying to learn other forms.

 

[JUDO]

Craft then Art

I agree with you, KM. Although, I must admit, waiting a year to create freeverse would be too much for me to bear.

I like trying out new forms. I like taking devices from a form and using it to create something new. I like taking devices from other art forms and wedging them into poetry.

I have just begun to create poetry with any sense of dedication. But like most of the artforms I get involved with, poetry seems to have a "season" for me.

I like to think of it as the Muse showing up late one afternoon and sticking her tongue in my ear, then one day, she's gone and I'm interested in something else - be it prose, composing, animation or art.

The prose I have to do on a daily basis, but poetry seems to come and go at its whim.

Writing in form is certainly a great mental exercise and like all workouts helps the overall 'writing' muscle to the benefit of all endeavors.


- Judo

 

[dark stranger]

humble observation

if one can capture the image they see in their mind
that is the poem

how you rhyme it, time it or set the gap between it's toes
is an afterthought, or should be.

I have found that taking words away from a poem often makes it better also...haikuish or tankaish forms often imprive the prospective of the artist.

thank you for thought place on this topic

 

[KillerMuffin]

Anything is a poem.
Very little is a good poem.
Anyone can toss words together and call it a poem. That's not my difficulty. I want to write good poetry. Or at least know whether my own poetry is good or not.

I should probably define that I'm not a poet by nature. I'm a prose writer. I never wrote poetry in my life beyond that proscribed by classes, it's only in the last year and a half that I've been "dabbling" in it. For every poem I write, I've no doubt that people like Judo and Wicked Eve write a hundred or more.

I'm a methodical learner, so going without freeverse isn't the least bit difficult for me. I've never really used it before so I never miss it.

I'm not a romantic and I don't have a love affair with poetry--not a judgement call, just a statement of fact. I don't even like to read most of it because most of it isn't very good. A good poem engages my mind so I don't have to force myself past the first line or two. To be blatantly honest, I have read three poems at Literotica that did that for me.

Too many writers, not enough readers, I suppose.

 

[WickedEve]

KM, your comments do keep a poet humble. You just deflated me. (it wasn't a pretty sight or sound!) I need that on occasional. It feels good to get all the hot air out! lol
Yes, I probably do write 100 to your every one poem. The majority of them don't work. But I do like to try everything -- trial and error.

Striving to move from mediocre to good,
Wicked Eve

 

[KillerMuffin]

I didn't mean that, WE!

You're actually supposed to write tons of stuff. Practice, practice, practice! I'm the one who's doing it wrong. You're a poet, I'm a dabbler.

 

[karmadog]

re: Too many writers, not enough readers

Reminded me of this bit from a Bukowski poem.

"...but as God said,
crossing his legs,
I see where I have made plenty of poets
but not so very much
poetry."

I think he is saying that even good poets don't get it right all that often. Or, he's saying that more people call themselves poets than should. Oh well, God seems pretty casual over the whole issue--why shouldn't we be casual, too.

 

[JUDO]

For every poem I write, I've no doubt that people like Judo and Wicked Eve write a hundred or more.

Yeah, me too, KM. Thanks for the mention, but I couldn't just let it lie. I'm such a hack in every respect. Every other blue moon or so, I get lucky.

And I don't write a ton of poetry. What I've posted is pretty much what I write.

And as you can see by the confounding no punch-line form that you posted a thread for*, I can go down in flames with the best of them.

But hey, as one self-deprecating poet said to the other,"Can I borrow a metaphor? Mine's no good."


- Judo

PS - (* - I'm going to try again and beat that sucker!)

 

[Sweetwood]

the real test

I don't know if any of you have ever written a poem and once satisfied sealed the book and made an agreement with yourself not to look at it for three years.

If after that time the text evokes the emotions originally had and you still cannot improve on it you have the beginning of somthing valuable there. Not neccessarily good, but valuable.

If you then read it to a complete stranger who you consider at least intelligent and the work speaks to them, you may be on to something valuable and good.

Poetry in my view must be spoken, not read silently. Try Shakespeare Sonnetts or Morgenstern humoresks that way - the impact I guarantee you is enormous. Every poem I read here I read to myself aloud. Sometimes twice or more with different emphasis. Based on that I make up my mind whether I like it or whether I think it is good.

While poetry is also craft and art, you cannot measure it's "goodness" by the craft alone. Someone may be absolutely perfect with a chisel and still not make a sculptor. The other way round though a poet may suck at rhyme, meter, etc. yet produce an unbearably beautiful piece.

Some thoughts

Sweetwood

 

[WickedEve]

I didn't mean that, WE!

You're actually supposed to write tons of stuff. Practice, practice, practice! I'm the one who's doing it wrong. You're a poet, I'm a dabbler.

Your words still keep a poet humble!!! lol ssssss... more air leaking.

 

[annaswirls]

okay I searched the forum for pantoum and this is what I found. I have to write one by next week. God help me.


Stanza 1:

Line 1
Line 2
Line 3
Line 4

Stanza 2:

Line 5 (repeat of line 2 in stanza 1)
Line 6 (new line)
Line 7 (repeat of line 4 in stanza 1)
Line 8 (new line)

Stanza 3/Last Stanza (This is the format for the last stanza regardless of how many preceding stanzas exist):

Line 9 (line 2 of the previous stanza)
Line 10 (line 3 of the first stanza)
Line 11 (line 4 of the previous stanza)
Line 12 (line 1 of the first stanza)

 

[unapologetic]

I think the majority of the poetry at Lit, like 99% of it, is in the freeverse form.

I've recently had a discussion with daughter about forms and freeverse.

daughter told me how one girl she knew wrote nothing but strict forms for a year before her teacher allowed her to use freeverse. daughter said that this girl's freeverse was wonderful because of it.

I'm pretty much of the same opinion. I think that learning to write poetry while restricted to forms teaches a person to be a better poet overall. It teaches us to be true to whatever devices the form requires. It teaches us to respect rhyme and meter. I think it also teaches us to respect the words themselves.

I've seen some pretty green poetry around here, including my own, where rhyme butchered the poem, where a verb was dropped at the end of the line for no other reason than to fit meter or rhyme. And this is from people with tons of poetry under their respective belts.

My plan is to write nothing but forms for a few years. I'm also going to learn devices. Actually, I think I'll learn the jargon first. I'm involved in the pantoum right now and I must say that it's been really good for me.

What do you think, as a road to learning poetry through writing, forms only or whatever fits your fancy? Why do you think it?

Naturally massive reading of poetry other than my own is required.

I've started reading Mary Oliver's A Poetry Handbook, and I've found it very helpful so far.

I agree, though: I think writing form poetry really helps my free verse. Actually, I think it helps my writing in general - my school work has been a lot more eloquent since I've started writing poetry on a regular basis.

I've made it a point to work on writing poetry for at least one hour per week. This is a big chunk of time for me right now, since I have a full time job, a part time job, and I'm working on a Master's Degree. (I got the idea from Mary Oliver's book, by the way.)

That's my opinion.

edit: I just realized the age of the original post. Ah, well. I'll let my comment stand.

 

[champagne1982]

okay I searched the forum for pantoum and this is what I found. I have to write one by next week. God help me.


Stanza 1:

Line 1
Line 2
Line 3
Line 4

Stanza 2:

Line 5 (repeat of line 2 in stanza 1)
Line 6 (new line)
Line 7 (repeat of line 4 in stanza 1)
Line 8 (new line)

Stanza 3/Last Stanza (This is the format for the last stanza regardless of how many preceding stanzas exist):

Line 9 (line 2 of the previous stanza)
Line 10 (line 3 of the first stanza)
Line 11 (line 4 of the previous stanza)
Line 12 (line 1 of the first stanza)

Here's a teaching pantoum I wrote around 18 months ago:

Pantoum

this line shall rhyme with the line last
this shall sing with the rhyme again
the rule for the third is one just lain
the rhyme scheme winds and weaves on past

this shall sing with the rhyme again
with luck the verse moves quick and fast
the rhyme scheme winds and weaves on past
without the poet bleeding and slain

with luck the verse moves quick and fast
no chance for those who weep and remain
without the poet bleeding and slain
a body's work an anthology, vast.

no chance for those who weep and remain
actors no more a poet's cast
a body's work an anthology, vast
which even gone sings the rhyme again.

 

[MungoParkIII]

Here's a teaching pantoum I wrote around 18 months ago:

Pantoum

this line shall rhyme with the line last
this shall sing with the rhyme again
the rule for the third is one just lain
the rhyme scheme winds and weaves on past

this shall sing with the rhyme again
with luck the verse moves quick and fast
the rhyme scheme winds and weaves on past
without the poet bleeding and slain

with luck the verse moves quick and fast
no chance for those who weep and remain
without the poet bleeding and slain
a body's work an anthology, vast.

no chance for those who weep and remain
actors no more a poet's cast
a body's work an anthology, vast
which even gone sings the rhyme again.

I have also seen the Pantoum presented without rhyme.