...Forgive?

[Mephistophelily]

I know it seems a stupid thing to ask for help on, but I'm seriously having trouble doing it.

My husband did some things starting about 2 years ago that really hurt me (I had a thread on that awhile ago too). I tried getting some help to clear up my head and the way I felt about it, and he's been trying hard to not be the guy he used to be.

He's making progress, for the most part. Things have still been rather... rocky, but certainly not as terrible as they once were, though I'm scared it may go back that way again soon. Still, he is trying.

I just can't seem to forgive him. I get upset if he gets too close to me; he wants to cuddle up at night and I start clenching my teeth. When he touches me, I cringe. He wants sex. Last time we were intimate, probably about 2 months ago, I ended up crying when he went into the bathroom. Honestly, I could care less if we ever had sex again. I have no interest in it and it hurt like hell, but I know that when we get time alone again, I'm most likely going to end up in what I've deemed "limp dog position" to sate him for awhile.

I feel like a horrible person to be holding this against him even after he tries to change. But he still starts to seep back into his other ways, not to the full extent he used to be- just touches of it that scare me off again.

He wants things to be the way they used to be. But it's just so hard for me to get back to that. He really is trying to change, but I can't see past what he did. I've lost trust in him, I guess. It hurts to think like this. We have two kids, and I'm just afraid on how the lack of real emotion I have toward their dad anymore is going to reflect to them.

I don't know if this is making much sense. It's 2:30 in the morning for me, I can't sleep... This has just been floating in the back of my head for a long while...

 

[NippleMuncher]

I would suggest counseling, both for you alone and both you and your husband together. If you can't both move on, then the hell you're describing will endure for both of you and end up tearing you apart anyway.

Dealing with life's issues is never easy, but NOT dealing with them makes everything worse. You both deserve better than that. If you're serious about reconciling and moving on, get help. If you're not, then end the marriage and allow each of you to heal and find happiness.

 

[roomfor1more]

I am not convinced counseling works and it sometimes can make the issue worse. From your question it reads as though he is changing but you do not mention what you have done to change. Things will never be the same and for this relationship to go forward both of you are going to need to change. For you it will mean not focusing on the past and instead it means focusing what is happening to you at the moment. Granted you cannot forget the past, instead you can choose to react differently and not let past events dictate how you respond. By doing this it will help you begin to put the past behind and to begin to forgive him.

 

[TrueFox]

I don't know the exact situation, but it sounds awful, and my heart goes out to you. It takes a lot to try to preserve a relationship after a serious blow.

It's great that he is trying to change, but that doesn't mean that you are going to be able to go back to where it was before you were hurt. You are not obligated to live the same life you had before, especially if you decide that it's not in your children's best interest.

Your body is showing the toll that all of this is taking on you, by physically rejecting him. If you are having that strong of a reaction, maybe your body is trying to tell you that it's time to rethink what the best course of action is.

By all means, try counseling. But remember that you can commit to forgiving somebody without allowing them back into your life in the exact same role. I really think that forgiveness is nothing more than a mental state. There are no actions that truly demonstrate it.

 

[bound4_fun]

xxxxxx

 

[silverwhisper]

mephistophelily, i'm a fan of counseling and i agree with NM, et al, that you should seek some. but there are good and bad counselors out there: the theodore sturgeon law* applies. finding a good one--ideally one that a friend might be able to recommend--is going to be pretty important.

i don't recall the thread in question, so i'm going to assume whatever it was, it was a very serious problem.

i'm not sure if you're clear on what your ideal outcome here is, but it sounds to me a lot like you aren't yourself certain of that. if you can't answer that question, i'm not sure that you're going to get to a better place.

ed

 

[ecclectic]

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=733674 <- THIS THREAD???? (Actions speak louder than words.)

How is he trying to slip back into those old ways?
None of them sounded good. I can tell you if you can't have an intimate relationship, the rest of it will likely fall apart regardless of how else you may feel.

You both need counseling if you want to remain together.

He needs some sessions on his own.

 

[Mephistophelily]

That was the one...

I've been trying to be more open. He says I take things too literally and need a thicker skin. That lately I take too much out of context. I'm trying to not do that as much, but with the way he says and does it, it's hard not to feel it's against me.

He lost his job in January. I still don't know the exact reason as to why. We've both been looking for jobs awhile (I only worked weekends til this week), and that's been eating at him. Every rejection or unanswered resume pisses him off. I think me getting hired somewhere this week is going to add to that. I mean, he's happy now, but there was already a comment made that raised my red flag.

He's trying, attempting to be nicer to the three of us. This morning he did dishes, ran me a bath, gave me a backrub, picked out my clothes for me (though that weirded me out). I'm trying to lower the barrier I put up, but after almost 2 years of doing it, it's difficult.

I think I want to try counseling again. I'm just afraid to. The last time was such a horror, I'm scared.

He didn't cheat on me. He was emotionally abusive for the bettet half of my last pregnancy and the first 6 months of our daughter's life. I attribute most of his anger/problems with his old job. Now that he's not there, he's calmer, for the most part. But I'm very afraid when he gets hired somewhere, once work stress restarts, so will everything else.

I guess I'm torn. I want to see and hope that I get my guy back again... But am scared on what I may get in the end. I think that's why it's so hard. I'm afraid that if I forgive him, will it just restart? I know that's not something that anyone can answer, but my mind is thinking it all the time...

 

[SweetErika]

That was the one...

I've been trying to be more open. He says I take things too literally and need a thicker skin. That lately I take too much out of context. I'm trying to not do that as much, but with the way he says and does it, it's hard not to feel it's against me.

Classic abuser behavior, right there.

I'm guessing you don't take things too literally or out of context, you've just woken up and can now see things for what they are. And he doesn't like that.

I think I want to try counseling again. I'm just afraid to. The last time was such a horror, I'm scared.

I think you need to try a counselor who specifically deals with abuse. Have you gotten referrals from your local domestic abuse places yet? If not, I'm going to suggest that again, and let them know your last experience with counseling was awful, so you need the very best they have to offer. You need someone who's very experienced in helping survivors of emotional abuse, not just any therapist.

I guess I'm torn. I want to see and hope that I get my guy back again... But am scared on what I may get in the end. I think that's why it's so hard. I'm afraid that if I forgive him, will it just restart? I know that's not something that anyone can answer, but my mind is thinking it all the time...

Forgiveness is about YOU, not him, or anyone else. It's not going to make you forget or turn a blind eye to future actions, nor is it going to change his behavior. He doesn't even need to know that you have forgiven him.

And maybe this isn't the right time for you to forgive, since you're still in it and so close to it. Perhaps you need more time to process everything, and a lengthier record of good behavior on his part to put the past away. These are things I'd suggest discussing with your new counselor.

 

[ecclectic]

I've been trying to be more open. He says I take things too literally and need a thicker skin. That lately I take too much out of context. I'm trying to not do that as much, but with the way he says and does it, it's hard not to feel it's against me.

Perhaps he should work on actually saying what he means then. I try as often as possible to take what everyone around me says literally. Often, they find it amusing at first but after a short adjustment period, they learn to be more direct in speaking with me. (It's not that I don't understand inference or subtlety, I just find little use for it in day to day life and don't see any reason to accommodate it.)

He lost his job in January. I still don't know the exact reason as to why. We've both been looking for jobs awhile (I only worked weekends til this week), and that's been eating at him. Every rejection or unanswered resume pisses him off. I think me getting hired somewhere this week is going to add to that. I mean, he's happy now, but there was already a comment made that raised my red flag.

If you don't know why he lost his job, well, that's a bad thing right there. Has he screwed up something and is embarrassed to tell you? Was he caught doing something inappropriate? Too many things to worry about there. Just bad news.
I've been laid off twice in the last 2 years, spent nearly 10 months combined looking for work. Never took it out on my wife or kids, there would be no point and no excuse.

He's trying, attempting to be nicer to the three of us. This morning he did dishes, ran me a bath, gave me a backrub, picked out my clothes for me (though that weirded me out). I'm trying to lower the barrier I put up, but after almost 2 years of doing it, it's difficult.

Minus the picking out clothes (control issues?) sounds like a pretty average day at least once a week.

 

[Nasty_Deeds]

I know it seems a stupid thing to ask for help on, but I'm seriously having trouble doing it.

My husband did some things starting about 2 years ago that really hurt me (I had a thread on that awhile ago too). I tried getting some help to clear up my head and the way I felt about it, and he's been trying hard to not be the guy he used to be.

He's making progress, for the most part. Things have still been rather... rocky, but certainly not as terrible as they once were, though I'm scared it may go back that way again soon. Still, he is trying.

I just can't seem to forgive him. I get upset if he gets too close to me; he wants to cuddle up at night and I start clenching my teeth. When he touches me, I cringe. He wants sex. Last time we were intimate, probably about 2 months ago, I ended up crying when he went into the bathroom. Honestly, I could care less if we ever had sex again. I have no interest in it and it hurt like hell, but I know that when we get time alone again, I'm most likely going to end up in what I've deemed "limp dog position" to sate him for awhile.

I feel like a horrible person to be holding this against him even after he tries to change. But he still starts to seep back into his other ways, not to the full extent he used to be- just touches of it that scare me off again.

He wants things to be the way they used to be. But it's just so hard for me to get back to that. He really is trying to change, but I can't see past what he did. I've lost trust in him, I guess. It hurts to think like this. We have two kids, and I'm just afraid on how the lack of real emotion I have toward their dad anymore is going to reflect to them.

I don't know if this is making much sense. It's 2:30 in the morning for me, I can't sleep... This has just been floating in the back of my head for a long while...

I understand that your husband did some things that hurt you, and I understand it is hard to let it go, but you only have two choices: you either get-over-it, or you move-on. By doing neither, all you are doing is beating yourself up emotionally.

If you think counseling will help, get counseling. If you don't think counseling will help, get a divorce. By sitting still and doing nothing, all you are doing is hurting yourself, your husband and your kids.

 

[Noor]

I remember reading with horror the previous post about your husband, and thinking that you should get out then.

I think your mind/body is protecting you and I am not sure you should try and get over it.

Counseling might help, try it if you can.

Your husband may indeed be changing but he needs to earn back your faith and so far on some level he hasn't.

People can do stupid rotten self centered things to others without realizing it, however a man who can do that to his pregnant wife and child during a time they really need him, has a lot to come back from.

You don't need to be more thick skinned, he is doing stuff to get at you, maybe not intentionally but he sounds like a classic controller. Has he had any counseling?

You will not get your guy back again, because you now know him for who he can really be. Perhaps he can change and with that you can too, but it will be a new level, a different relationship between you, there is really no going back after abuse. You could eventually have a better relationship with this guy but its not happening now.

I don't think this is a matter of your not forgiving him, I think its a matter of self protection and protection of your children. Until you feel safe again, you will not feel better about him. He has to regain your trust, and so far he hasn't. He maybe trying and you obviously are too, but its just not happening yet.

 

[newlegz]

I think this comment from SweetErika needs to be highlighted ....

Forgiveness is about YOU, not him, or anyone else. It's not going to make you forget or turn a blind eye to future actions, nor is it going to change his behavior. He doesn't even need to know that you have forgiven him.

And maybe this isn't the right time for you to forgive, since you're still in it and so close to it. Perhaps you need more time to process everything, and a lengthier record of good behavior on his part to put the past away. These are things I'd suggest discussing with your new counselor.

...so I wanted to repost...

Forgiveness is a tricky tricky tricky bitch... you can think you've forgiven, and then something can happen to bring back all those feelings. Don't beat yourself up about not having forgiveness all figured out yet. I think the only way to get deep enough to take care of all the issues involved in any interpersonal relationships is to seek help of a trained professional.

 

[_Virginia_]

I know a lot of people won't agree with me on this, but I believe that some things simply can't be forgiven - no matter how hard you try.

 

[coastal-boy]

I know a lot of people won't agree with me on this, but I believe that some things simply can't be forgiven - no matter how hard you try.

I agree with this statement. Comments like "you need a thicker skin" or "you take things too literally" IS a form of abuse. They are designed specifically to belittle your feelings and support his.

Every county in this country has a Dept of Human Services (DHS) where women without money can seek counseling/protection concerning abuse issues. Counseling is NOT about him, but about YOU. And it is about your children. Stop making decisions with him in mind and start making decisions with you and your kids in mind.

 

[_Virginia_]

I don't know enough about your situation to say that this is one of those times when forgiveness isn't possible - only you can really decide that.

Please stop beating yourself up over not being able to forgive him......in my experience, when I've had trouble forgiving someone, there's usually a very good reason!

 

[gspothero]

I understand that your husband did some things that hurt you, and I understand it is hard to let it go, but you only have two choices: you either get-over-it, or you move-on. By doing neither, all you are doing is beating yourself up emotionally.

If you think counseling will help, get counseling. If you don't think counseling will help, get a divorce. By sitting still and doing nothing, all you are doing is hurting yourself, your husband and your kids.

In my case I was the "guilty" party, although for cheating rather than emotional abuse. Not that one is necessarily better or worse than the other - simply different and both unacceptable behaviors. After five years of fidelity and counselling and trying to change on my part I concluded that my wife would never forgive me. Without hope for forgiveness from her it was impossible for me to see how our relationship would ever be satisfying and healthy for either of us so I decided we should divorce.

On one hand, we waited until our children were all grown, which provided them a two parent household, allowed them to live with me rather than visit me and simplified the divorce. On the other hand, the strain of our damaged marriage was impossible to hide (well, my ex wasn't shy about sharing all of her negative opinions about me with our children) and I no longer feel that staying together for the sake of the kids was actually better for the kids.

I offer this as evidence supporting the above quoted opinion - status quo or doing nothing will benefit nobody. If your husband wants to change and is working hard on changing and if you think you can eventually forgive him, then maybe things can work out. It might take six months, it might take six years, it might take longer than that for him to demonstrate consistent changes in how he treats you and for you to redevelop trust and truly forgive him. It might help him to understand that your forgiveness is possible, although only in the future, probably further in the future than he would prefer and only after he has demonstrated consistently better behavior. If you don't think you can eventually forgive him or if he isn't willing to earn the forgiveness you may develop over time, then it is time to end it now - for you, for your kids and for him.

 

[Vixandra]

I skim-read through the other thread and through the responses on this one.

You have a daughter- would you want her to stay in a relationship like yours? By tolerating his behavior, you are condoning it in their eyes. If she sees that its okay for mom to be treated this way, why shouldn't she accept it as well when she gets older?

Would you want your son to treat a woman the way he treats you?

You are not a horrible person for remembering what he did to you and your children. You are not a bad spouse for not enjoying sex with someone who abused you. He may not have hit you, but emotional trauma often leaves marks that hit harder than any physical one.

If you can forgive him, go for it, but that does not mean you have to stay with him. From your writings, (I follow the Blurring the Line thread you write with Vail) I know you are intelligent, articulate and clever. You deserve so much more than a relationship where you cannot even enjoy sex.

 

[Bandit58]

I just can't seem to forgive him. I get upset if he gets too close to me; he wants to cuddle up at night and I start clenching my teeth. When he touches me, I cringe. He wants sex. Last time we were intimate, probably about 2 months ago, I ended up crying when he went into the bathroom. Honestly, I could care less if we ever had sex again. I have no interest in it and it hurt like hell, but I know that when we get time alone again, I'm most likely going to end up in what I've deemed "limp dog position" to sate him for awhile.

This brought back some unpleasant memories for me, I did exactly the same as you are doing when I was with my ex.

This is no way to live. Sex should be a joyful expression of love and affection and intimacy, not something to be endured to keep the peace. Over time I actively grew to dislike my ex. It is impossible to enjoy sex with someone you really can't stand to have touch you. It felt like I was being raped every time I did it.

I think your body is telling you something. I endured pain because I was as dry as a bone...there was no arousal it was just get this over with as quick as possible.....

I still haven't forgiven my ex and I left him 9 years ago.

 

[subwannabe]

You both actually need help. I suggest counseling - without him. This is about you. He isn't going to change. I seriously doubt he really was Mr. Terrific and you are hoping he returns to that. I bet looking back you could see that there were "red flags" right from the beginning.

 

[fuckmeat]

You will not get your guy back again, because you now know him for who he can really be. Perhaps he can change and with that you can too, but it will be a new level, a different relationship between you, there is really no going back after abuse. You could eventually have a better relationship with this guy but its not happening now.

I don't think this is a matter of your not forgiving him, I think its a matter of self protection and protection of your children. Until you feel safe again, you will not feel better about him. He has to regain your trust, and so far he hasn't. He maybe trying and you obviously are too, but its just not happening yet.

QFT.

I also think that this guy is too quick to forgive himself and downplay the long term butterfly effects of his selfishness in you and your kids. Because he's able to absolve himself at the speed of light and declare himself a new man, you have a much harder time letting go of your own feelings of hurt and betrayal. This is bound to manifest as mistrust and fear of him. I think that sadly, if you forgive him it will restart again, because his pseudo-'guilt' over what he did to you and your kids will evaporate without your disapproval and blame as a constant reminder.

Like a child, he's acting guilty and contrite in large part because you're angry and fed up with him, not because he's genuinely remorseful and fully comprehends the ramifications of how he has behaved. He's very emotionally immature IMO and seems to function on a child's level, where forgiveness from a parent is unconditional. Adult relationships have basic conditions and caveats like being deserving of trust and of treating one another with respect at all times and of putting children's welfare above and beyond the needs of either of you as parents. Your husband doesn't appear to get that, which is a terrible shame.

I don't think he's nearly sorry enough for what he's done. I don't think he really understands the effects he's had on you and your kids. I also don't think him worthy of yet another chance to reform his character.

I don't think you love him either. You did once, very much but you can't love someone who you know is capable of turning on you the way he has. You can't love someone you can't trust and depend on when shit gets rough. You can't love someone who's an insecure and spiteful bully, whom you cannot respect.

I'd be very surprised if he ever changed enough for you to trust and respect him again. Until that happens, your love for him will always be little more than an echo of what brought you two together in the first place. He needs to accept there are major flaws to his character and he needs to want therapy for himself rather than to keep you on side. I'm very sorry but I don't see that happening anywhere near soon enough to make life bearable for you as his wife.

Sex can't be a joyous, bonding experience with a guy as ignorant as that, a guy who wilfully ignores his shortcomings as a husband and father, a guy who quite possibly views it as a marital right rather than a privilege he should earn every day by loving you to little pieces and treating you like a princess.

I'm sorry, I'm probably the last person you want to read here because I don't think you've liked anything I've said in the past. But I felt compelled to write, because I like you a lot and think you've been through enough.

 

[albertaboy]

Your husband was a total douche to you in October and clearly is a wildly selfish human being.


Run don't walk, working on this relationship will only get you to temporary times of an acceptable relationship and mostly awful. Your kids will grow up not understanding what a loving home is and what do you think will happen to them after spending their first 15 or 20 years in that environment?

 

[Mephistophelily]

I told him I wanted to go to a counselor again a few nights ago. He drooped and just kept asking "But I thought I was doing better! Aren't I doing better?"

All I could think was "If you have to ask, what do you think?"

I know a few said to leave him last year. But it's hard to really think about that. Have I debated? Yes. He's changed to who I used to know somewhat, but Jerk is still there too. I think because "that stuff" isn't brought up much anymore, it's ceased to exist for him. Never happened. Erased from existence.

There are things from our past that confused me, things said by others... And I see more of what they meant more and more. But I get scared to try and bring them up. Ask him about it. Ask why he does things. Even now, this mr lubby dubby is scaring the hell out of me. I've worked 3 days so far, he and the kids home alone together for 9 hours each time. I admit, I'm worried. That old temper might resurge and I'm not around to get them clear. So far things seem well. But that's so far, on three days. By next month... I dunno.

Maybe I am stupid to stay. Stupidly holding to that "he can change" mentality.

I'm going to try the counseling. May even swallow down and get ahold of that family member.

 

[SweetErika]

I told him I wanted to go to a counselor again a few nights ago. He drooped and just kept asking "But I thought I was doing better! Aren't I doing better?"

All I could think was "If you have to ask, what do you think?"

I know a few said to leave him last year. But it's hard to really think about that. Have I debated? Yes. He's changed to who I used to know somewhat, but Jerk is still there too. I think because "that stuff" isn't brought up much anymore, it's ceased to exist for him. Never happened. Erased from existence.

There are things from our past that confused me, things said by others... And I see more of what they meant more and more. But I get scared to try and bring them up. Ask him about it. Ask why he does things. Even now, this mr lubby dubby is scaring the hell out of me. I've worked 3 days so far, he and the kids home alone together for 9 hours each time. I admit, I'm worried. That old temper might resurge and I'm not around to get them clear. So far things seem well. But that's so far, on three days. By next month... I dunno.

Maybe I am stupid to stay. Stupidly holding to that "he can change" mentality.

I'm going to try the counseling. May even swallow down and get ahold of that family member.

It sounds like your gut is telling you in no uncertain terms what you need to do. Get the counseling, and listen to your intuition. You've got to have a plan in place to get out, because this very well could be the proverbial calm before the storm, you know?

 

[subwannabe]

I agree with Erika. If you stay you will be riding a roller coaster for the rest of your life. Is that really what you want?