Forgive Student Loans? (Political)

[slyc_willie]

It is my, 'feeling', that the new administration will forgive student loans, but it will not be for free, there will be strings attached, as there are with the TARP and Stimulus packages.

Of course not; this is America, after all.

Sorry, Ami, I couldn't resist.

 

[amicus]

Of course not; this is America, after all.

Sorry, Ami, I couldn't resist.

~~~

Harrumph! I owes ya one, slyc_

"A man's handshake is his word..." America is unique in that we are indeed a polyglot(greek word) of disambiguous immigrants, who, in the absence of a King or Pope, had to grope with rational self interest and self defense as a modus operandi or perish.

It was first here, that words such as individual dignity and honor, outside the concept of Knighthood and Service to the Court or Clergy, were discovered and came into play amongst the affairs of man.

Each grouping, be it Irish or Italian, Protestant or Jew, huddled together for a generation or so and then became absorbed by that new discovery, America and Americans.

The Mother's and Father's Italian Association, Mafia, had strings attached to every transaction, as do Catholics still, among the fold, but independent cusses, bastards all, overcame the clanish behavior of the newly arrived and set forth on a new tack, that of individual freedom and contractual agreements where the 'strings' were spelled out in legal terms.

Yet and still, there has survived an affectation with all things European; beyond reason and rationality, a closeted yearning to be a part of something considered above and greater than the individual.

Asian and Hispanic and African Americans have that yearning too, for tribal and theological reasons that will also fade with time and generations as the offspring of these immigrants learn new ways and new ideologies.

That is where we fail them, as Americans; to teach by example and in our systems, what it means to be an American and have pride in this nation, its' new heritage, its' young history.

After the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, a bare hundred years later, provided the first true testing of nationhood; I expect another to follow soon.

Americans' will either rediscover the meaning of individual freedom or they will not and the nation will devolve into barbarism and tribal warfare.

We shall see.

Amicus

 

[ishtat]

Once the commitment is made no loan should be forgiven. One of the major reasons for the current financial crisis is that people with mortgages know they can walk away from their responsibilities if the going gets tough.

People who take out loans should do so in the knowledge that if they do not pay they will be pursued and if necessary bankrupted. With that level of personal responsibility there would be a negligible proportion of bad loans and thus the overall cost would be less.

If these student loans are forgiven I will bet that the colleges will promptly increase their charges to absorb the difference.

Now a slight diversion. I am involved with an entity that recruits fee paying students from around the world to both graduate and post graduate courses in Australia. We have been struck by how few young Americans think of going outside their own country for University education, even when if they did so, both the quality and cost of that education would be significantly better. Other International students seem to look for these opportunities much more readily.

 

[amicus]

From a young lady in Melbourne, I learned we are separated by about 17 hours, if memory serves, so it is early evening down under?

While I do not endorse situational, relativistic ethics, the ones that would allow people to walk away from loans, collegiate or not, there is, I suggest, a contractual promisory addendum that insures an 'education' will be delivered in return for the payment of fees.

In my not so humble opinion, it is not 'education' being delivered by the majority of American schools of higher education, but, 'indoctrination', an entirely different matter which the student or the parental signatories on the loan papers did not agree to purchase.

The second part of your post is most interesting and I take your word for the quality of Australian educational facilities but I have not heard or seen any advertising in the general market place soliciting paying students.

I have no doubt such promotional entities exist but not in the eyes or ears of the general public as far as I can see.

Always nice to learn something new; thank you.

Amicus

 

[ishtat]

From a young lady in Melbourne, I learned we are separated by about 17 hours, if memory serves, so it is early evening down under?

While I do not endorse situational, relativistic ethics, the ones that would allow people to walk away from loans, collegiate or not, there is, I suggest, a contractual promisory addendum that insures an 'education' will be delivered in return for the payment of fees.

In my not so humble opinion, it is not 'education' being delivered by the majority of American schools of higher education, but, 'indoctrination', an entirely different matter which the student or the parental signatories on the loan papers did not agree to purchase.

The second part of your post is most interesting and I take your word for the quality of Australian educational facilities but I have not heard or seen any advertising in the general market place soliciting paying students.

I have no doubt such promotional entities exist but not in the eyes or ears of the general public as far as I can see.

Always nice to learn something new; thank you.

Amicus

With regard to the first part of your post I can see that if the entity providing the loan is the same as the one providing the service (whether it be education or indoctrination) then that entity should meet all their obligations under the contract. But are those entities necessarily the same? If they were independent it would be difficult to hold the loan provider responsible for the quality of the education.

The best educational providers in OZ are excellent the worst are woeful and provide degrees which are probably as useful as a prison sentence on a CV(resumee). Familiar?

We target the students we are looking for fairly precisely so there is almost no advertising necessary. Basically we are looking for a balance of talent and capacity to pay. One of the overall objectives is to increase the quality of the whole student body by recruiting overseas students who are superior to the average.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

During my interview for grad school, the faculty advisor let the cat out of the bag that while my GPA and GRE scores were kewl enough, the school wanted males (to dilute the female numbers) and people who didnt need free money.

Those of us who work and pay cash, make the loans and grants and scholarships available to others. So I have trouble appreciating the attitudes of loan recipients that they deserve special treatment because they graduated.

 

[amicus]

Ishtat:

"...With regard to the first part of your post I can see that if the entity providing the loan is the same as the one providing the service (whether it be education or indoctrination) then that entity should meet all their obligations under the contract. But are those entities necessarily the same? If they were independent it would be difficult to hold the loan provider responsible for the quality of the education..."

~~~

You make a valid point. The 'lending institutution', may well have no connection or relationship with the provider.

I wonder if there exists anywhere, an 'insurance' similar to the ones protecting the lender, that would apply to the borrower to provide an avenue of redress if the offered education were faulty?

I attended four Universities and it is no secret that I have personal experience and a personal opinion about the quality of education those institutions provide. I also, as expressed, have the opinion that the root of the student loan dilemma is deeply a political issue. The 'luxury' of the teaching staff, equipment and gentle environment of many institutions of higher learning seem to exist mainly for the teaching staff and administrators and the 'students' provide the funds for their lifestyle as they delegate teaching responsibilities to grad students and other instructors.

This has created a tremedous hardship for many students in later life as attested by several on this thread.

I think it is all wrong and should be seriously addressed.

Amicus

 

[cloudy]

Ishtat:

~~~

You make a valid point. The 'lending institutution', may well have no connection or relationship with the provider.

I wonder if there exists anywhere, an 'insurance' similar to the ones protecting the lender, that would apply to the borrower to provide an avenue of redress if the offered education were faulty?

I attended four Universities and it is no secret that I have personal experience and a personal opinion about the quality of education those institutions provide. I also, as expressed, have the opinion that the root of the student loan dilemma is deeply a political issue. The 'luxury' of the teaching staff, equipment and gentle environment of many institutions of higher learning seem to exist mainly for the teaching staff and administrators and the 'students' provide the funds for their lifestyle as they delegate teaching responsibilities to grad students and other instructors.

This has created a tremedous hardship for many students in later life as attested by several on this thread.

I think it is all wrong and should be seriously addressed.

Amicus

Are you saying that a student bears no responsibility for their own education?

If you choose a shitty university, you receive a shitty education. It isn't that difficult to find a good, reputable school if you only do a little research before you commit yourself, and a lofty price doesn't guarantee a lofty education.

The whole point of a university education is to supply the tools for a student to receive a good education. If they don't avail themselves of those tools - i.e. only do what they have to to pass - then the blame lies squarely on their shoulders for their lackluster education, and not on the school's.

 

[sr71plt]

Are you saying that a student bears no responsibility for their own education?

If you choose a shitty university, you receive a shitty education. It isn't that difficult to find a good, reputable school if you only do a little research before you commit yourself, and a lofty price doesn't guarantee a lofty education.

The whole point of a university education is to supply the tools for a student to receive a good education. If they don't avail themselves of those tools - i.e. only do what they have to to pass - then the blame lies squarely on their shoulders for their lackluster education, and not on the school's.

I agree that the lender has no obligation to guarantee the education--which, in any event, the student is just as responsible to step up to as the institution is in providing it. I don't think I've ever heard of a student studying too much to be able to do well in their chosen field.

 

[amicus]

Cloudy...a small dose of reality for you to consider...

First, consider the age, 18-19 of incoming freshman at any college. They are somewhat at the mercy of the system they encounter. I wish you had viewed the Documentary Channel program, "Indoctrination U." which provided facts and numbers concerning the political atmosphere on dozens of campuses across the nation.

College, much like High School, has become somewhat a 'Rite of Passage', which, upon completion grants a person 'status', in terms of a diploma, a scroll, a piece of paper.

If the overall 'flavor' of a modern university was one of providing a non political view of history, a presentation of true, classical liberal treatises concerning the nature of society, and a course of instruction of English, in this country, and writing, including spelling and grammar, which should have been absorbed before college and a presentation of American History as a history of free men, freely pursuing a free choice of avocation and profession, I would be the first to congratulate the system on a 'job well doneQ!'

You know, as well as I do, that a High School diploma or an undergraduate degree has become essentially meaningless in today's society.

As with a 'recruit' in the military, just out of boot camp, college freshmen are swallowed by the system and stripped of their individuality for a similar reason the military institutes such practices; total, nonthinking indoctrination.

There is justification for that process in the military; there is no justification for it in higher education.

I expect you to 'congratulate' the product of liberal left wing education just as I would congratulate true education.

It will get worse, more in your direction of indoctrination before it gets better. I fully expect our socialist President to legislate a mandatory college attendance and corresponding community service before the year is out.

Amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

Dear sweet AMICUS, dont you know that if you argue one plus one equals two CLOUDY will argue one plus one equalled five before Bush was President?

You cant get at them with facts.

 

[cloudy]

AMICUS

Dear sweet AMICUS, dont you know that if you argue one plus one equals two CLOUDY will argue one plus one equalled five before Bush was President?

You cant get at them with facts.

I have yet to see amicus use any facts.

 

[jomar]

Haven't read through so don't know if this is on topic or not....

Universities and colleges are under pressure to produce income. Income is produced by enrolling students. At desperate schools acceptance criteria are lowered allowing students in who will fail. These students accept debt to enroll and when they fail they are still expected to pay their debt.

Who is to blame? The school for leading the student on to pad their numbers? Or the student?

I say the student, though I have no respect for universities who practice deceptive advertising. I have noticed that many "adult" students who fail also try to game the system and insist on being admitted despite counselors saying they'd be better off elsewhere. This is mostly with adult or non-traditional students, btw.

Like others here, I paid for my education. Where's mine?

 

[jomar]

...
In my not so humble opinion, it is not 'education' being delivered by the majority of American schools of higher education, but, 'indoctrination', an entirely different matter which the student or the parental signatories on the loan papers did not agree to purchase.

...
Amicus

Liberal and conservative.

Liberty University, Jerry Falwell's ultra-conservative baby, won the national collegiate debate championships a year or so ago. That sparked liberal concern that they were grooming the next generation of conservatives to be set loose in DC. Conspiracy theories are the best.

 

[amicus]

Jomar...your post set me to thinking...

"...Some colleges severed their relationship with the religious communities and continue in the twenty-first century as quality independent institutions. Among these are Vanderbilt University, Auburn University, University of Southern California, Oberlin College, and Princeton University. In 1881, 80 percent of the colleges in the United States were church related and private. In 2001, 20 percent of the colleges - approximately 980 institutions - had connection to a religious tradition. The "Digest of Educational Statistics, 2000," indicates that sixty-six religious groups in the United States currently sponsor colleges or universities. These institutions enroll more than 1.5 million...

http://www.answers.com/topic/colleges-and-universities-with-religious-affiliations

A rather higher percentage that I thought...learned something...

thank you...

ami