Forgetting the Alamo

[Pure]

Every battle has a least two stories. There are 'brave' as well as hapless on both sides.

And many battles or combats have a racial side not acknowledged by many at the time. The "Alamo" problem is not different from the "Cowboys and Indians" problem of the older westerns, and brings up the question, "Why are all coyboys, esp. heroes, white?" (Remedied a bit in some more recent Westerns like Unforgiven). The Hispanic issue is a little better handled in movies like "Lone Star" iirc.

Pearl Harbor must be a helluva celebration in some quarters; it *was* rather well executed.

I'm told some are uncomfortable when Japanese officer veterans get together to remember some glorious battles of WWII.

Presumably it's mostly not the glorious battles later in the war, that the US veterans remember, which the US won.

If I read Colly correctly, she's saying that the 'good' /'evil' labels applied to historical conflicts, don't fit well. Which implies too, that even were they reversed in a fit of PCness (Indians good, white men bad) that's not exactly true either.

To be current: Is it a matter for celebration or lament if a small group of American 'contractors' (mercenaries) is ambushed in Iraq? Or neither. Just another bloody page of history.

J.

 

[someplace]

Just thought I'd drop by to wish everyone

Happy San Jacinto Day!

 

[KenJames]

Just thought I'd drop by to wish everyone

Happy San Jacinto Day!

I'm happy. I'm a state employee, so I got the day off.

 

[someplace]

A really happy day for you! I got a big box of Godiva chocolates and a larger bottle of Moet from my boss for San Jac day! *grin*

He doesn't do that administrative/secretary/staff appreciation thing (don't 'cha know?) ...It was cute.

 

[KenJames]

A really happy day for you! I got a big box of Godiva chocolates and a larger bottle of Moet from my boss for San Jac day! *grin*

He doesn't do that administrative/secretary/staff appreciation thing (don't 'cha know?) ...It was cute.

Good for you! Obviously, you don't work for the state, unless you have a seriously unconventional boss. Our administrative assistants kind of lost out, except for getting the day off.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: From the other side of the pond

One thing that saddens me is the use of the Confederate Flag as a symbol in the modern world.

I have no problem with bodies of those who died on the Confederate side being buried under that flag. That is their flag and the cause they fought for. I would defend the use of the WW2 German or Japanese flags for burying their dead with honour.

What angers me is the use of the Confederate Flag to symbolise an intolerance and hatred that many who fought under it wouldn't have recognised. That war was not just about slavery despite the winner's propaganda. There were principled people who supported the Confederacy and they would be ashamed of the symbol that flag has become.

The Nazi flag represented an evil regime yet many Germans who were not Nazis fought under it. Displaying Nazi symbols in 21st century UK is either ignorance or a deliberate act to provoke minorities. Here some people see a Swastika and the Stars and Bars as interchangeable and intend it as an insult to people of a different colour or faith. Some people even display the Stars and Bars because they think it represents all that is 'best' about Country Music.

Perceptions change with distance. All I feel about the Alamo and the American Civil War is sadness that so many feel the need to keep re-opening wounds that should have been healed generations ago. Let the past bury its dead with honour even if the dead were on what is now seen as the 'wrong' side.

Has the US forgiven us Brits for the war of 1812 and our burning of The White House? Most US citizens probably don't even know about that war. UK citizens don't seem to. They might remember and honour the US forces who fought with us in WWI and WWII and the help the US gave us in the Falklands War but a war in the early 19th century? We had so many wars then.

Re-inventing history is not a modern idea. The Romans did it. The Greeks did it. We are just following some disgraceful precedents.

Og

The wounds from the Civil War will never heal. That conflict is an interesting study in history in many ways, but the most interesting is that it defies the time held maxum that the victors write the history books. The north, after its vindictive period or reconstruction seems to have wanted to forget the whole thing. The south remembered well and most of the contemporary books and a huge volume of those written afterwards were written by southerners or southern sympathizers.

Each generation in the south takes in the history of that war with a definete southern biase, almost along with mother's milk. Those wounds will never heal.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

Your view is interesting to me Colly with re. to those who think (and those who have posted in some threads) that non-whites should have gotten over centuries of racism by now. Personal wounds on a generationally deep level will not disappear in less time than it took to inflict them. Just a thought I had after reading your post on the civil war.

thanks (again), Perdita

 

[pop_54]

Interesting thread *P* darling, one can learn from such threads.

We aren't overly up to date on true American history over here, only having the Hollywood versions to go on mostly. We are as you will appreciate, not good at studying other nations history too closely, far too tied up with our own most of the time.

It's been interesting to read the opinions of others and some of the facts they've posted to back up their opinions and comments.

As Oggie says, there are problems with certain banners and flags being hi-jacked as symbols of racism and hate. It's St Georges day here tomorrow (Friday) the national patron saint of England. Were a public employee dare to wear a Cross of St George flag emblem on his / her clothing, they would almost certainly be suspended from work and disciplined for doing so and be accused of racism. It offends the minorities you see, or so we are told, the England flag having been Hi-jacked by certain 'politically incorrect' groups.

Yes interesting thread lover one

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Please pardon the hubris of posting a few paragraphs from the novel I just finished. I'm doing this because it may help show the conflicting emotions that can surround this issue. Maybe not.

The time is the summer of 1968. The setting is a small souther USA town, Pinefield. In this scene, Mark, the college-age protag, has come to pick up his date, Bebe Boudreaux. Much to his dismay, he's now trapped with her racist father.

RF

--

Mark tried to force a smile. It wasn’t easy. He ached to shout, “For the love of God, shut up! I’m so tired of acting polite while idiots like you rant and rave all this brain-dead racist shit. All you sad-ass losers have done is discredit the South and the flag my ancestors fought and died under. Why the hell won’t you just go away!”

But he couldn’t say that to an adult, not to anyone from Pinefield, and most of all, not to Bebe’s father while sitting in his living room waiting to take her on a date.

Sometimes, he felt certain the losers would never go away. They were like the poor. They’d always be around. Now as he looked over at Boudreaux, the only thing Mark could think to do was make a non-committal shrug.

To his surprise, the shrug seemed to make Boudreaux even madder. “So tell me son, what are we supposed to do? I’m saying we can’t just let the commies and coons come in and take over. We gotta fight for our rights, for our way of life.”

Mark looked at the floor, ignoring the challenge in the older man’s eyes, and considered his response. “I’m a southerner, Mr. Boudreaux. According to Dad, my great grandfather fought the U.S. government from Shiloh to Stone Mountain. The thing is, he and all the rest of those men fought hard but we, the south, still lost. And now, I’ve got it on good authority, those same Feds have the A-bomb.”

 

[raphy]

Interesting thread *P* darling, one can learn from such threads.

We aren't overly up to date on true American history over here, only having the Hollywood versions to go on mostly. We are as you will appreciate, not good at studying other nations history too closely, far too tied up with our own most of the time.

It's been interesting to read the opinions of others and some of the facts they've posted to back up their opinions and comments.

As Oggie says, there are problems with certain banners and flags being hi-jacked as symbols of racism and hate. It's St Georges day here tomorrow (Friday) the national patron saint of England. Were a public employee dare to wear a Cross of St George flag emblem on his / her clothing, they would almost certainly be suspended from work and disciplined for doing so and be accused of racism. It offends the minorities you see, or so we are told, the England flag having been Hi-jacked by certain 'politically incorrect' groups.

Yes interesting thread lover one

Not too many Englishmen even remember that today is St George's day, pops.. I salute you.

Raphy, who has a much easier date to remember in St David's day.

 

[Guest]

Not too many Englishmen even remember that today is St George's day, pops.. I salute you.

Raphy, who has a much easier date to remember in St David's day.

Ummm, I hate to say this, but it's not, it's tomorrow, the 23rd (as Pops rightly said).

It's also Shakespeare's birthday on the 23rd (and anniversary of his death), oh, and my little bruvva's birthday.

Lou

 

[raphy]

Ummm, I hate to say this, but it's not, it's tomorrow, the 23rd (as Pops rightly said). :

Gah, what do I know, I'm not an Englishman

That said, I knew it was tomorrow, because I was replying to Pop's post that had already said it was tomorrow. *scratches head*

I think I need to lie down for a bit.

 

[cloudy]

Re: Re: From the other side of the pond

The wounds from the Civil War will never heal. That conflict is an interesting study in history in many ways, but the most interesting is that it defies the time held maxum that the victors write the history books. The north, after its vindictive period or reconstruction seems to have wanted to forget the whole thing. The south remembered well and most of the contemporary books and a huge volume of those written afterwards were written by southerners or southern sympathizers.

Each generation in the south takes in the history of that war with a definete southern biase, almost along with mother's milk. Those wounds will never heal.

-Colly

Nice post, Colly. I was not raised here in the south, but both of my parents were.....my father in Alabama, and my mother in Georgia. Even tho I was raised in So. Cal., I was raised with a southern flavor and ate biscuits and cornbread as baby food.

You're very right about the civil war wounds. My great-grandfathers on both sides fought in the Confederate army and we still have assorted family heirlooms that remember them from that time, including one dress sword. They are cherished.

The rebel flag for me is not a symbol of racism, although I can understand that some would see it that way, but a symbol of southern pride. We lost, but we didn't stay down. Funny how right on the money you are with saying its almost given to us with our mother's milk.

Like the t-shirt that used to be as commonly seen around here as polo shirts says:

American by Birth, Southern by the grace of God.

The South has never gotten over it, and the wounds scar as they heal. I don't like that part of it, but I am glad that some of the things here haven't changed, like generosity and courtesy, and taking care of your neighbors. In that respect, I've never lived in another area of the country that even comes close.

 

[Guest]

Rumply, thank you, that was an insightful little piece, well done. Hope to read more.

Perdita