For Uncle Bill about the puintive insurance damages.

Todd

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LAWYERS FULL EMPLOYMENT ACT OF 2001
Much debate coming up this week in the Senate on the so-called "Patient's Bill of Rights" in Washington. The principal arguing point between the Republicans and Democrats is this.

Both Republicans and Democrats want people to be able to sue for their actual damages .. the actual monetary value of any damages they may incur a a result of sub-standard or negligent medical care.

The Republicans and Democrats have reached some tenuous agreement that patients ought to be able to sue an insurance company, a managed care organization or an employer IF one of those entities actually makes a decision regarding the patient's health care and that decision turns out to be negative.

The Republicans want those suits to be brought in federal court where the rules of evidence are more stringent, juries more intelligent and punitive damages ( an award meant to punish the defendant rather than to reimburse the plaintiff ) are tougher to get.

The Democrats want the suits to be brought in state courts where the rules are more lax, the juries less capable and punitive damages easier to get.

Republicans want a $500,000 cap on punitive damages.

Democrats want a $5,000,000 cap on punitive damages.

There is one underlying motivation behind the Democrats position on these issues. Democrats want chaos in medical care. Democrats know that if they get their way on this bill there will be more predatory trial lawyers out there seeking clients for broadsides against doctors, insurance and managed care companies and employers.

Put yourself in the place of an employer for a moment. Suddenly your insurance agent notifies you that you are subject to be sued by your employers if a decision regarding their health care turns out to have negative consequences. Why, you ask, can you be sued? Because YOU are the one providing them with their health insurance coverage. It's part of their benefit package. So, what is the best way to protect yourself against a multi-million dollar lawsuit? Easy. Drop the health coverage. Tell your employees that you are dropping their health coverage and increasing their salary by an amount equal to what you have been paying for their health insurance. Tell them that from this point on they are responsible for their own health care.

The result? Well, you, as the employer, are not immune from multi-million dollar judgments over your employee's health care. That's good. The employee now has to buy his own health insurance. Bad for the employee. Why? Because when you bought your employee's health insurance you were allowed to deduct the premiums. When your employee buys health insurance he has to do it with after-tax dollars. And just why is that? Because government works against the concept of individual responsibility (buying your own insurance policy) and in favor of the concept of dependence (get it from the boss).

Chaos.

What is the result of insurance companies raising premiums to cover increased damages and employers dropping coverage? More uninsured. And what do the uninsured do? They demand help from government. Would government like to help? Sure it would! Government would like to take over the whole mess!

Watch the debate, folks. It's the precursor to full-blown socialized medicine in the United States.
 
before everyone jumps down your throat

This post is dead-on in its analysis of, at least part, of the differences between the Republican and Democrat versions of this bill.

The Republica version would also minimize the motivation for "trial lawyers" to bring contingency suits against everyone with "deep pockets". Since the going rate for legal fees in a contingency lawsuit is 40%, ... that $500K cap for punitive damages is one of the things the trial lawyers and their political allies (Democrats) are looking to strike down.

Folks..... this bill is HUGE for the future of non-socialized medicine....
 
Re: before everyone jumps down your throat

Texan said:
This post is dead-on in its analysis of, at least part, of the differences between the Republican and Democrat versions of this bill.

The Republica version would also minimize the motivation for "trial lawyers" to bring contingency suits against everyone with "deep pockets". Since the going rate for legal fees in a contingency lawsuit is 40%, ... that $500K cap for punitive damages is one of the things the trial lawyers and their political allies (Democrats) are looking to strike down.

Folks..... this bill is HUGE for the future of non-socialized medicine....


I likes Socialized medicine.
 
Re: before everyone jumps down your throat

Texan said:
This post is dead-on in its analysis of, at least part, of the differences between the Republican and Democrat versions of this bill.

The Republica version would also minimize the motivation for "trial lawyers" to bring contingency suits against everyone with "deep pockets". Since the going rate for legal fees in a contingency lawsuit is 40%, ... that $500K cap for punitive damages is one of the things the trial lawyers and their political allies (Democrats) are looking to strike down.

Folks..... this bill is HUGE for the future of non-socialized medicine....


Shhhhh, your not allowed to be agreeing with me ;)
 
I have significant experience working with Physicians on an employment basis and I will tell you that we will end up with the shittiest doctors ever if we go the socialized medicine route. I think I like this joke a whole lot.............

What do you call 10,000 lawyers on the bottom of the ocean

A good start!

Couldn't resist. I have dealt with a lot of foreign doctors who leave their country because the place of capitolism allows them to practice better medicine and earn more money. Stop that and your health care will suck. Also, I have already seen a lot of very great doctors leave the profession because of all of the gov't interference..........It won't be pretty.
 
important

In the U.S. we already provide health care for everyone. No person is denied medical care, whether they have insurance or can afford to pay for the care, or not. State, county and municipal hospitals provide care, and everyone who pays taxes, pays for this care. (and NO, I don't begrudge this part of my tax burden)

One of the largest contributing factors to the extremely high cost of medical care in this country is the cost of malpractice insurance. In some medical specialties, (OBGYN for example) this is the largest part of the costs the doctors and hospitals must charge for. The bill (mistakenly called "Patient's Bill of Rights) which is before the Senate this week, will decide if lawyers can sue HMO's, doctors, and EMPLOYERS.... and how much they can sue for.

The Republican plan requires the patient (and his lawyer) to go through two review and mediation steps BEFORE they can sue.
The Democratic plan allows the patient to sue immediately.

The Republican plan then allows the patient to sue the HMO, but not the employer who provides the insurance as a benefit of employment. The Democratic plan allows the patient to sue the HMO and the employer. This will have exactly the effect that Todd's article described. It is intended to greatly increase the number of uninsured people who will demand the government get involved and create a national health care system.

Both the Republican and Democratic plan allows the patient to sue for FULL actual damages and losses, past and future. This includes pain, suffering, lost wages, etc. The Republican plan puts a cap on "punitive" damages (intended to punish the offending party) at $500K. The Democratic plan caps those punitive damages at $5Million. This is MAJOR. This difference puts liability insurance out-of-reach for almost all small businesses. This makes it almost IMPOSSIBLE for any company to provide medical insurance to their employees. Remember, medical insurance is a benefit provided by long-term contract to many union members. To the trial lawyers, this opens up a HUGE new group of "deep pockets" to be sued.

The Democratic plan would also destroy the "worker's compensation" insurance plans for most states. It would take the long-term disability settlements and put them back into the courts to be decided by juries.

I always thought Teddy Kennedy was a mentally challenged buffoon.... but I was wrong. Kennedy started the whole HMO industry by authoring the bill that created HMO's and gave them immunity from liability. Then.... he comes back with the Patients Bill of Rights legislation which he claims will hold HMO's responsible for their mistakes. In reality, he set about a long process of creating an industry that he could then turn on, to make them the villian necessary to institute nationalized (socialized) health care. That was brilliant.
 
Re: Damages 101

lavender said:


This is simply untrue. Talk to most torts attorneys and you will realize this is just bullshit spoken from insurance companies as propoganda to decrease the amount of settlements. The insurance premiums are not that affected by lawsuits. I know they tell you they are, but insurance companies are probably the least trust-worthy group of individuals in capitalist America. Conservative and liberal attorneys will agree on this one, especially contracts lawyers. One of the greatest reasons for the high cost of medical care in your country was the way you explained our full coverage in your first paragraph. These individuals are treated in the emergency room, when they don't have any health care coverage. They go to the MOST expensive method of receiving health care. Why is this? Because our nation does NOT focus on preventive medicine for all Americans. Preventive medicine for all would be a key contributor in the reduction of medical costs for our citizenry.



I haven't figured out how to go point by point in a rebuttal to a rebuttal.... so I'll take this point for an example.

Let me get this right.... I am supposed to take the word of tort lawyers over the word of the insurance industry? Afraid NOT.

I acutally took the basis of my statement from a close friend who is an OBGYN. She also delivered three of our four sons. Eight years ago, when the last pregancy was in progress, I complained to her about how much her prices had risen for care during labor and delivery. She spent the next half hour bitching and complaining about the cost of malpractice insurance. Since then she has told me repeatedly that more than half of what she charges goes to pay for her insurance. AND... she has never been sued for malpractice. According to this doctor, 80% of OBGYN's have been sued for malpractice, and 60% of anesthesiologists.

lavender, I totally agree that one of the major reasons the cost of providing medical care for un-insured patients is soooo high, is because we only provide this care through emergency rooms. This is not a problem to be solved by destroying the best medical care system in the world. This problem needs to be solved by distributing the care capabilities from hospitals to smaller clinics throughout the communities, NOT by destroying the health benefits most people have negotiated as a part of their compensation. In Bush's campaigne, he proposed expanding community based health care. I have not seen a proposal from the administration come out yet... but I'm watching...

The litigious nature of our society has gotten out of control. A year ago, my oldest son was broadsided while driving my jeep. He was knocked across three lanes of traffic and into two other cars. Noone was injured, and the investigating officer placed fault firmly on the driver who broadsided my son. Within three days, I had been sued by four lawyers. It turns out, I had the best insurance. I was even sued by a lady who was three cars away from the collision. She said that she turned her head so fast when she heard the crash, that she injured her neck. My insurance company threatened to drop my coverage and leave me to fight the suits. I filed a formal complaint with the Texas Department of Insurance, and they did what was right. If we don't get control of the legal system, and the people who see it as their personal winning lottery ticket, we are in serious trouble.

End of rant....
 
lavender said:
I agree that our society is overly litigious. However, we can't let the stupid lawsuits cloud our judgment about legitimate legal claims.

As for the malpractice insurance, the New York Times reports that the Republicans plan will increase insurance by 2.9% while the Democrat plan will increase the insurance by 4.2%. Granted, the Ds plan is a greater increase, however it is truly not that extensive.

laverder, I'm not sure the NYT is the best source for non-biased information on Democrat vs. Republican plans. (but I'm not sure what the best source of info is)

My biggest problem with the Democratic plan is the ability to sue employers who provide health insurance for their employees. This is the kicker that has the potential to force nationalized health care..
 
lavender said:
It's not that they can sue their employers for the negligence of the doctor/hospital. They can sue their employers if the employers and the insurance company decide arbitrarily not to cover something on insurance. This is what I've understood about the plan. I may be off base.

lavender, I appreciate your feed-back on this. We can forget that it comes from one of Todd's threads...... (just kidding Todd)

I am not a lawyer, and when you listen to Dems and Rep's talking, they each say the other is misrepresenting the plans of their opposition.

As I understand the issue of employer liability for damages, the word used in the bill is "culpability". I am not a lawyer, but Republicans say this is a legal term that allows the employers to be named in suits because they were "culpable" in the decision of which insurance company, policy or plans were made available to employees. If the employer choses an insurance company that denies a claim (for whatever reason) the employer then becomes "culpable" for damages along with the insurance company.

If this part of the Dem plan can be eliminated, I wouldn't yell and scream about the rest. However, it seems to me that this is the part that the Dems will be fighting hardest for, because it is the part that will FORCE employers to stop offering insurance coverage to emplyees. This will be the driving force behind a national health care system....
 
A bit off track of the main thrust of this thread but still relevant in the grand scheme of things:

In states that don't have laws to limit the dollar amount of jury awards, increasingly large verdicts threaten the health care system by driving up medical malpractice insurance premiums. In turn, the rise in premiums can trigger numerous problems for the consumer/patient.

For instance, it causes doctors to practice defensive medicine. By this I mean ordering additional, sometimes unnecessary, medical tests that insurers may be reluctant to pay for, but that doctors want in order to protect themselves from lawsuits.

It also causes doctors to delay hiring new staff, or even downsizing staff. This contributes to patient backlogs and makes it difficult for patients to get timely appointments.

Doctors become so leery about this problem that they stop practicing certain high-risk specialties, such as obstetricians/gynecologists who stop delivering babies because the threat of patient litigation is so high.

Sometimes they even move their practices to regions with lower medical malpractice insurance costs, or stop practicing medicine altogether. Some of the more adventurous in spirit practice medicine without coverage (since there are no laws requiring physicians to carry malpractice insurance).

It is not unusual that some areas with high liability costs are unable to or at least have great difficulty in attracting new doctors to the area, creating a lack of consumer choice of physicians.

Doctors and lawyers are blaming each other, while both groups criticize insurers who they say refuse to raise the prices on their liability products in an attempt to stay competitive in the marketplace. These insurers then either go bankrupt when an unexpected number of claims roll in, or are forced to ask state insurance regulators for hefty premium increases to cover their losses.

Allowing a patient to sue their insurance providers is the next logical step. Texan you are absolutely correct about culpability. Insurance industry and private sector companies are not in collusion about what procedures or services to cover. It is solely the discretion of the insurer as to what will be reimbursed. The only possible link the employer has is in the original choice of insurance coverage. Their responsibility ends there. As long as they provide group coverage for current (and separated employees - through COBRA and various other programs) their assumption of responsibility to their employees is met.

Further, when the insurance companies undercut a doctor's decision and opinion, they can claim contractual agreements with the physician as the end of the argument. Managed care has become synonymous with poor decision making, reduced benefits, higher costs and more dissatisfaction for all parties. Quite a bit different than its original intent.

It is not inconceivable that we will turn to nationalized medicine in the future. There has been a steady decline in benefits over the last two decades from a 100% fully employer funded perquisite, to a share of the costs between company and employee to a lessening in percentage of the load. It seems logical that lobbyists will persuade Congress to dig into the federal coffers to pay for medical benefits for our citizens.

Plenty of blame to go around. No easy solutions in sight.
 
I cannot think like you guys...

But my spouse and many other nurses are dropping malpractice insurance. Why? Because then the lawyers will simply go after the doctors and the hospital, those who are carrying insurance. They know then even if they win against the nurse, collecting may be difficult.
 
AJ
Insurance premiums are cheaper in states that have caps on jury awards for medical malpractice. For example, a California obstetrician pays one-half to one-third less in medical malpractice insurance premiums than those practicing in a state with less stringent caps or no caps at all on medical liability jury awards. An obstetrician in California may pay $40,000 a year for coverage whereas an OB in a large state without caps like Florida or New York pays $90,000 or more.

At the same time, surprisingly few claims are filed. It is a very small percentage (approximately 2-4%) of people injured by physicians' negligence that seek compensation through a lawsuit. And even fewer actually win any damages.

As I said in my last post, many people do not realize that their physician is not required to be insured. Just like your spouse, if the doctor is not insured, there is little hope of collecting compensation if the doctor injures an innocent patient through malpractice. Maybe it isn't so foolhardy of them to drop their coverage after all.
 
Barb Dwyer said:
AJ
$40,000 a year for coverage whereas an OB in a large state without caps like Florida or New York pays $90,000 or more.

At the same time, surprisingly few claims are filed. It is a very small percentage (approximately 2-4%) of people injured by physicians' negligence that seek compensation through a lawsuit. And even fewer actually win any damages.


Hello Barb.... I enjoyed reading your posts.... and you're right on "the money".

I have heard higher figures for the cost of malpractice insurance, but I have also heard that it varies GREATLY.

The figure (2 - 4%) may be a little misleading (although accurate), when smaller claims of $10K - $15K or more, are usually settled out of court.
 
Howdy, Tex!

I think it's fairly obvious I have thoroughly loved your posts as well! ;) You are a very eloquent and erudite speaker with a vast knowledge of the issues.

As to the figures, you are correct. They do vary widely not only due to geographic considerations, but in correlation to areas of specialty as well.

I think we need to mention, too, that most of the litigation involves hospitals. I think your position is on target in terms of individual lawsuits brought against personal physicians that are settled out of court.

Medical associations are still reluctant to provide figures. There is little effective regulation of quality by the state licensing board. Only about 2,000 doctors are disciplined each year. Usually, the charges involve substance abuse or financial fraud. Rarely is a physician disciplined for injuring a patient through medical malpractice.
 
Center of Justice & Democracy

When I have no way to verify the validity of a "bunch" of statistics, I look to see the source of the person or group who is offering the statistics in an effort to make "some kind" of point.

I followed the link provided by lavender for the Center of Justice & Democracy. It turns this group has quite a political axe to grind.

This is a three-year-old non-profit group made up mostly of lawyers who specifically set out to prevent tort reform. The executive director of the group is a former Nader Raider, and the group even lists Ralf Nader on their Council of Advisor, along with Erin Brockovich and actor Michael Moore.

I will take up a little space here and post some information about the group (from their own website) so each person can judge for themself if this group is "neutral" on the subject.

Mission statement:

"Once elected [Governor], we passed some of the strongest legal reforms in America. … If I am fortunate enough to be your president, that will be my legacy."
- George W. Bush, February 9, 2000.

We are challenged as never before in history by a corporate-led attack on our precious right to trial by jury in civil cases.
With money and politics already dominating the executive and legislative branches of government, America's civil justice system is one of the only places left in America where individual citizens can successfully challenge powerful industries and institutions. Insurance companies, manufacturers of dangerous products and chemicals, the tobacco industry and other major industries are engaged in a nationwide campaign to change our civil justice system - to make it easier for them to escape responsibility for the harm they cause.
This so-called "tort reform" movement has sunk multi- millions of dollars into hundreds of industry-sponsored, conservative groups, "think-tanks," public relations, polling and lobbying firms, which are setting legislative agendas, devising strategies and purchasing expensive media. Their goals are to take power away from civil jurors with "tort reform" laws -- laws that immunize corporations from lawsuits and block injured consumers' access to the courts -- and target judges whose decisions they do not like.
The Center for Justice & Democracy is the only national consumer organization in the country working round-the-clock to fight this movement, engaging in battles around the country to protect our civil justice system. We are working full-time to expose unscrupulous attacks by special interests on judges, juries, injured consumers and the attorneys who represent them. We are dedicated to raising public awareness of the value or our civil justice system and the dangerous campaign behind the so-called "tort reform" movement.


Executive Director's resume:

Joanne founded the Center for Justice & Democracy in 1998. Joanne is an attorney who has worked on civil justice issues since 1986, when she first directed a project for Ralph Nader on liability and the insurance industry. In that capacity, she developed some of the first educational materials used to fight "tort reform" around the country. Joanne was a member of the Steering Committee of the Brookings Institute/American Bar Association's Advisory Committee on the Future of the Civil Jury. In 1997, Joanne was the Staff Attorney and lobbyist on civil justice issues for Public Citizen. Joanne was selected by the Stern Family Fund as a 1999 Public Interest Pioneer.

Council of Advisors:

Erin Brockovich
Richard Dysart
Lucinda M. Finley
Professor of Law, University of Buffalo Law School
Ben Franklin
Editor, The Washington Spectator; former New York Times national correspondent
Marc Galanter
John and Rylla Bosshard Professor of Law and Professor of South Asian Studies,
University of Wisconsin Law School
Mark Hager
Professor of Law, Washington College of Law, American University
Joseph D. Harbaugh
Dean, Nova Southeastern University Law Center
J. Robert Hunter
Director of Insurance, Consumer Federation of America
Thomas H. Koenig
Professor of Sociology, Northeastern University
Edward Masry
Masry & Vititoe
Tony Mazzochi
Labor Party; Paper, Allied-Industrial, Chemical and Energy Workers Union
Andrew McGuire
Executive Director, Trauma Foundation
Michael Moore
Filmmaker and author
Joan Mulhern
Earthjustice Legal Defense Fund
Henry Myers
Former Science Advisor, US House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs
Ralph Nader
Willard P. Ogburn
Executive Director, National Consumer Law Center
Joseph A. Page
Professor of Law, Georgetown University Law Center
Annie King Philips
Juror Representative, Council for Court Excellence, Washington, D.C.
Jerry Phillips
W.P. Toms Professor of Law, University of Tennessee College of Law
Andrew F. Popper
Professor of Law, Washington College of Law, American University
 
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