For those who like to criticize ...

[Leigh_Hanson]

First of all, I am not fishing for votes (I left on the voting mechanism only to give readers a sense of power over my story and to give me a personal indication of how many were reading and how many readers were trailing off or coming in ). However, for those that like to read and particularly for those of you that enjoy giving feedback, I am fishing for criticism.

I have recently submitted 3 (tomorrow will bring 4) chapters of a novel to Literotica. I am seriously wanting to pursue publishing this work, yet right now I would also enjoy some serious critique.

The story revolves around the relationship between a mother and daughter and this is the main theme of the novel. All sex is erotic and secondary, although the protagonist is a dominatrix. Anyhow, without explaining much more, I welcome any comments good or ill and an advanced thank you to anyone who takes the time.

Link: The First Eyes

 

[impressive]

I bookmarked. Will try to read soon.

 

[Leigh_Hanson]

Thank you. I look forward to your opinion.

 

[MarshAlien]

I will give it a look, but I think you want to put this in the Story Feedback Forum. The AH gets so many posts that this will drop like a hot rock. Threads tend to linger on the Story Feedback Forum, and end up attracting the people that are likely to read your story and give you some feedback on it.

 

[Leigh_Hanson]

I will give it a look, but I think you want to put this in the Story Feedback Forum. The AH gets so many posts that this will drop like a hot rock. Threads tend to linger on the Story Feedback Forum, and end up attracting the people that are likely to read your story and give you some feedback on it.

Thank you for the warning, MarshAlien. I am familiar with Lit and how this thread will drop. I still prefer to ask for feedback from the AH, even if it's just one or two people like you.

 

[MarshAlien]

Thank you for the warning, MarshAlien. I am familiar with Lit and how this thread will drop. I still prefer to ask for feedback from the AH, even if it's just one or two people like you.

Yeah, but I always shoot off my mouth on the Story Feedback Forum, too. As for the kissing, I don't think we know each other well enough yet for that. How 'bout we just hug for now? After all, when I've finished reading your story, you may want to slap me. And I hate being slapped by somebody who's kissed me.

It may take me a couple of days, but I will get back to it.

hugs and, well, more hugs,

marsh

 

[angela146]

How old is the "narrator"? I'm guessing 8 years old.

 

[starrkers]

I read the first bit - started the second, but didn't finish it.
The first was engaging but I found no interest in the second. It seemed totally divorced from the first, with a different feel and focus.

 

[Leigh_Hanson]

I read the first bit - started the second, but didn't finish it.
The first was engaging but I found no interest in the second. It seemed totally divorced from the first, with a different feel and focus.

I appreciate that and also Angela146's post. I wish you'd both tell me why.

 

[starrkers]

I appreciate that and also Angela146's post. I wish you'd both tell me why.

I think it was because it jumped from recollections of an 8 and a bit year old to description of someone else. The recollection was very personal and internal, but the "voice" was totally different in the second piece.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I thought the first chapter was quite interesting. The second chapter didn't hold my interest, and I'm sorry, but I stopped reading it about halfway through.

The first chapter seemed to have some spark and bite to it, and that was something the second chapter seemed to be lacking in.

 

[impressive]

I bookmarked. Will try to read soon.

Left a comment on the first, then realized you might not check there. It read:

I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. It drew me in from the start. The only jarring bits were (a) the emphasis on the dinner table, and (b) the excessive use of "to be" verbs. The latter is, admittedly, one of my pet peeves. It's one not every editor shares, and first person is a bit more lenient in that regard anyway. This has a great deal of potential. Thank you for sharing it.

Just read the second chapter. Unlike the others, I didn't find it disinteresting. I followed the jump in your protagonist's age. However, if submitted for professional publication, I would label the previous chapter as a prologue.

In the 2nd chapter, watch the use of consecutive prepositions (e.g., out from, from under). They're rarely necessary & they drag down the literary quality of the work.

I noticed one then/than mix-up.

I would do something to place your flashback in time (months ago? years?). It might involve adding a time marker to the present narrative and another to the flashback. For example, in the present, Bree has been doing "x" for two years. In the flashback, she might've just started doing "x." Just something to show the reader how far back she's flashing. Also, you don't need two mentions of the time in the flashback. Either your narrator tells it, or Amelia reveals it in dialog. Not both.

You got a little confusing when there were more than two actors on stage, but that kind of fits the feel of a wild party. Still, I struggled a bit to keep everyone straight in my head.

Loved the characterization of Ness. He is more "alive" to me than any character you've mentioned thus far, including your protag. Once you brought Bree out as a dominant personality, she seems to have closed herself off to the reader. The reader sees others through her eyes, but stops seeing inside HER -- if that makes any sense -- and I think the glimpses inside Bree in the first chapter are a large part of what engaged the other commenters.

 

[angela146]

I appreciate that and also Angela146's post. I wish you'd both tell me why.

I re-read chapter 0.

The character receiving the spanking is explicitly eight years old.

It is a wonderful piece, capturing a truly evil mother, a worthless father and a brave little girl.

My question is, how did it get past the Lit censors?

I would love to write and post a story like this and I would be curious if it was accepted by mistake or if there was some kind of feeling that this didn't cross some invisible line.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

My question is, how did it get past the Lit censors?

Why would Lit censors have any problem with it? I read it, and couldn't find any sex or sexual situations whatsoever in the entire chapter.

From the FAQ: Basically, our biggest requirement is that we do not accept any story in which characters under the age of 18 are involved in sexual situations.

 

[angela146]

Why would Lit censors have any problem with it? I read it, and couldn't find any sex or sexual situations whatsoever in the entire chapter.

From the FAQ: Basically, our biggest requirement is that we do not accept any story in which characters under the age of 18 are involved in sexual situations.

He was a latchkey kid, and after school we would go over to his house, have a snack and then emulate a variety of erotic statues his mom had dispersed around the living and dining rooms. We called it rubbing dinks, but beyond that, we really didn't know what we were doing. ...

We had just finished putting our clothes back on. ...

Well if "emulating erotic statues" while naked doesn't count as a sexual situation, then I'm glad cuz it means I can incorporate it into a story with highschool students.

"You can spank her until she cries or screams, whichever comes first." ...

As I lay over his knee, and the thick, tan barber belt clapped my small cheeks, I convinced myself, 'I will not cry,' and as I flinched from the slap and the smack and the strike of the leather, I did not cry. ...

I would dearly love to be able to write that in a story about an underage version of myself and have the story posted on Lit. I had never dreamed that a spanking would be considered non-sexual.

I'm not complaining. I think it's wonderful to be allowed to include both of these in a Lit. story but I'm wondering where the line is.

Maybe it's the quality of the writing, maybe it's the subtlety, or maybe it's a matter of just barely skirting the edge of sexuality... Whatever the loophole is, I would like to figure it out so I can write stuff like that.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Well if "emulating erotic statues" while naked doesn't count as a sexual situation, then I'm glad cuz it means I can incorporate it into a story with highschool students.

"Emulating erotic statues" is hardly descriptive of the situation. You can say, "Back then, I banged the whole football team and their parents'" and it wouldn't break the rules.

I would dearly love to be able to write that in a story about an underage version of myself and have the story posted on Lit. I had never dreamed that a spanking would be considered non-sexual.

I'm pretty sure that most people in the world would never dream that a spanking could be considered sexual. Sometimes (almost always, actually) a cigar is just a cigar...

 

[MarshAlien]

I really liked Chapter 00 (or Preface), didn't like Chapter 01, thought Chapter 02 was okay, and really liked Chapter 03.

00: Very well executed description of the girl's family, although I do think that the writing could have been much tighter. For example, the first two paragraphs would have made one really good opening paragraph:

My Mother was wealthy and cultured and had an icy-cold sophistication that would have even made Catherine Deneuve tremble. All my friends called her 'The Ice-Queen.' She was the kind of woman that didn't tolerate misbehaviour or bad manners. In fact, there wasn't much that she did tolerate.

I have a vague recollection of having once been an emotional and oversensitive kid. But two things that my Mother didn't tolerate more than ill manners and misconduct were tears and weakness, particularly in women. I remember the exact moment when I stopped crying and learned to hide any weakness.

could become:

Mother was wealthy and cultured, with an icy sophistication that would have made Catherine Deneuve tremble. She was the Ice Queen to my friends, a woman who didn't tolerate misbehavior or bad manners. Or tears or weakness, particularly in women. In fact, I remember the exact moment when I stopped crying and learned to hide any weakness.

01: The first part is very good. Ness is a compelling character. But the second part, with Amelia (whose relationship to Bree is not at all clear to me) begins with a very poorly written run-on sentence (with the odd construction "straddled over"), and ends very abruptly.

02: Lacks any real emotion (I don't know much about the BDSM scene, though), and goes on for a bit in comparison with the other chapters (which seem a bit short, actually, for Lit). The writing is good, and it does a good job of establishing Bree's persona, although we don't know yet whether it's her real persona or just a mask. I did like the last bit, with Dani, although leaving it like that makes me unsure of why Bree is now like she is.

03: I thought this well done, with the needy Ness and the hint of revelation in the next chapter.

I think you would benefit a lot from an editor, although he/she (like me) will need to know how the story is supposed to go before really being able to help you out.

marsh

 

[angelicminx]

Chapter 00:

This sentence is an awkward read:

But two things that my Mother didn't tolerate more than ill manners and misconduct were tears and weakness, particularly in women.

Might I suggest: But two things that my Mother was intolerant of, more than ill manners and misconduct, were tears and weakness, particularly in women.

Of course, I like Marsh’s suggestion of combining the two paragraphs into one stronger opening. With the exception of these two sentences: She was the Ice Queen to my friends, a woman who didn't tolerate misbehavior or bad manners. Or tears or weakness, particularly in women. IMO they should be combined into one: She was the Ice Queen to my friends, a woman who didn't tolerate misbehavior or bad manners; or tears, or weakness, particularly in women. Or one step farther: ‘Ice Queen’ to my friends, she was a woman who didn't tolerate misbehavior, bad manners, tears, or weakness, particularly in women.

Is there a point to mentioning which grade she and Robbie were in? If there is, I missed it. I found myself trying to remember how old I was in third grade, and how old a child was supposed to be in that grade. IMO, you wouldn’t lose anything by just saying: Robbie Lake was my best friend. His parents had divorced when he was six. (Or five, or whatever age he was in the first grade.)

This part has me confuzzled:

Unofficially, I suppose Robbie was my first boyfriend, although I'm not sure that either of us really considered each other boyfriend and girlfriend. I liked him, there was no doubt about that, but it wasn't the same sweaty-palmed, heart-racing euphoria I felt looking at Shawn Cassidy in a Tiger Beat magazine, or the inexplicable feeling that washed through my belly upon seeing the half-naked 'Barbarella'.

The first line is very awkward and I had to read it more than once to ‘get it’. I don’t think the word ‘unofficially’ is necessary. I think ‘suppose’ gets your point across.

Also, at eight would there really have been “sweaty-palmed, heart-racing euphoria” at the sight of a teen heartthrob? Or maybe you are referring to a time later in life? It’s not clear. I read it as the eight-year-old and couldn’t suspend my belief.

Shaun Cassidy. He was in Tiger Beat a lot between 1977 and 1979, wasn’t he? (I discovered him when I was about 14, in 1987 )

Barbarella? Was that a character played by John Travolta? The first image that washed through my head was the dark haired detective on Starsky and Hutch and it made me go, “Ew!” But I knew that wasn’t whom you were talking about. It escapes me at the moment. Could you fill me in? I’m dying of curiosity.

I found this sentence to be awkward as well:

I had an insatiable desire for adventure and experiment and hoped that by the time I was nine, which was three quarters away, to have experienced much, much more than I had when I turned eight.

It had me calculating. There might be a better way to tell the reader that she is 8 ¼, IF it’s necessary to the story.

The day she learned to stop crying and learned to hide weakness was, “A fall night in 1974”? Reading further, specifically September 28th? I had to read this three times to come to that conclusion. Initially my response to the specific date was, “September 28 when?” Scroll back up. “Oh, okay.” Scroll back down and find my place.

I think there’s a way to tighten the story and the writing here. Something that would have hooked me into the story further would have been the line: September 28, 1974, the night of the fire. Or something to that effect anyway. Instead of the line: A fall night in 1974. The three paragraphs between this line and: There was a fire., could be combined into one that flows much better.

By “chocker” I assumed you meant “choker”. If not, please tell me what a chocker is? Initially the word threw me out of the story, I made my assumption and read a little further, but then it started niggling at me and I had to google it. Is this one of those words like ‘colour’ that can be spelled two ways?

"I'm coming with you," he said firmly.

That night we saw the fire.

Once again we are told that the children saw the fire. This time it’s simply not necessary.

This is the first passive sentence I found:

I had expected him to put up at least a bit of a fight, but I think he was still too afraid with visions of being treated like Davey to make a complaint.

“With visions”, IMO, should be removed from the sentence, in addition to being rephrased.

Second passive sentence:

When we arrived, I was mesmerized by the paint of the colours.

Awkward:

"Brigette Susanna Báthory!" I heard my dad yell in a firm voice giving away my three-quarters- French-Hungarian background.

Is knowing she is three-quarters French-Hungarian necessary to the story? If it is, there may be a better way to get that information across.

Passive sentences three and four:

The table was set with cherry linen napkins and placemats, and the Bordeaux was decanted on the table, but not poured. The bowls were on white, Pope Gosser plates, the Christofle silver was perfectly placed and the soup terrine sat in the centre of the table, covered but getting cold.

I have a hard time believing that an eight-year-old would take in enough detail, especially after being caught breaking the rules, to remember, years later, the Bordeaux, the Pope Gosser plates, and Christofle silver set on the table. I know you are trying to get across that Brigette was not a typical eight-year-old, and trying at the same time to set the scene, but…

On second thought, maybe the table is set the same way every night, and her mother makes a point of her children knowing what everything is? But then we get to the mother’s clothes and there’s no designer mentioned. If the mother had a penchant for ‘name-dropping’, I’m sure clothing would be included.

Again we’re told that she’s 8 ¼, but it’s written out without the need to calculate. I believe one time is enough, but you choose where.

When her mother is reprimanding her, we’re told that she crossed a highway to see the fire. When she and Robbie crossed said highway, we’re only told that it’s a busy road with ‘change lights’. (In which you mentioned three cars specifically. I’m not sure how that’s considered busy, or that the specifics of the cars is necessary.)

Passive sentence five:

My fear of her was replaced at that moment with hatred.

I like the emphasis on Mother, but I think it would be more powerful if you dropped the ‘my’ in front and just said ‘Mother’.

Passive sentence six:

In retrospect, I wonder if it was that moment where I learned to be dominant, or if it was already ingrained.

Six passive sentences out of 135 ain’t bad.

Overall, I liked the story well enough. I’m with Marsh in that you could use an editor, and the writing needs to be tightened.

Chapter 01:
I’m not going to pick any other chapters apart.

Unlike Marsh, Amelia’s relationship to Bree is quite clear for me. I did like Ness, though he’s a very weak man. The transition to the Amelia flashback is abrupt. Cute party scene, albeit confusing. I liked the abrupt return to the present. Again, an editor and tighter writing enhance the story.

Chapter 02:

Weird flashback to Mother in what I thought was a fast paced scene.
Second flashback makes a bit more sense where it’s placed.

Overall, I enjoyed this chapter. Fast pace. Sounded believable.

Chapter 03:

Very short. There are some errors in it, but I liked the pacing, and the introspection. I’m left wondering what happens next, which is a very good thing.

To be honest with you, if it weren’t for your request for critique, I wouldn’t have read past the first chapter. Decent story though, and I will most likely read the chapter(s) that follow now.

Welcome to the AH!

 

[MarshAlien]

She was the Ice Queen to my friends, a woman who didn't tolerate misbehavior or bad manners; or tears, or weakness, particularly in women.

I don't think that's a good place for a semi-colon. I think you're better off with a sentence fragment. Don't listen to the weasel.

Barbarella? Was that a character played by John Travolta? The first image that washed through my head was the dark haired detective on Starsky and Hutch and it made me go, “Ew!” But I knew that wasn’t whom you were talking about. It escapes me at the moment. Could you fill me in? I’m dying of curiosity.

Barbarella was the Jane Fonda character in Roger Vadim's whacko science fiction movie back in the sixties. I have no idea how an eight year old would know that.

Unlike Marsh, Amelia’s relationship to Bree is quite clear for me.

I want to state categorically that there is no relationship between me and Bree. Or Bree and me.

 

[angelicminx]

MarshAlien=I don't think that's a good place for a semi-colon. I think you're better off with a sentence fragment. Don't listen to the weasel.

I don't think so either, but it was an option. The fragment was just... off.

Barbarella was the Jane Fonda character in Roger Vadim's whacko science fiction movie back in the sixties. I have no idea how an eight year old would know that.

That's what I came up with when I googled, but I didn't think that could possibly be right. Duh moment for me, the implication that the child was already bi? In that case, I'm with you, I don't know how an eight-year-old would know that.

I want to state categorically that there is no relationship between me and Bree. Or Bree and me.

I'd say I needed to edit my statement, lol.

 

[Leigh_Hanson]

I didn't expect as much feedback as I have received here, but alas I thank you all. I will address you individually with an attempt to be quite objective when referring to my story because there's nothing that would irritate me more than to hear myself try to explain my choices as a writer.

Again, one big thank you to all of you, since if I continue on the thank you line I will never get to respond to you all!

Starkkers: Your statement confirms something I am trying to accomplish and to know that a reader feels there is a distinct difference between the "once sensitive little girl" and the emotionally distant adult is a major accomplishment for me. I honestly felt that I did not get that across and I appreciate your comment greatly.

darksideofthemoon: A simple kiss for trying.

Impressive: I have already written a personal note to you, yet had not read your comments here. Without repeating what I have already written and which stand true ... I do have a bit of a convo. that I'd like to address/start. Perhaps it's for this simple thread, or perhaps for the greater AH. In any case ... writing PARTAY scenes.

I mean, these things are the most fucking difficult things to write! When you're at a party in RL it's like a ball of confusion with multiple goings on and half conversations/ eavesdropping and filled with people your introduced to, some names you remember and some you forget and other worries if your hosting and more worries if your partner is too drunk etc.

What's important in writing a party scene? With a group sex scene it might be the activities, but with a non-erotic party? What's important?

As for Bree being closed in adulthood? I seriously thought that I brought that to the fore in the prologue. Perhaps I did not and this is my failing because it is the purpose of the prologue to illustrate this alongside the love/hate etc. of the characters relationship with her mother. I have one specific question at the moment ... why is Bree's "closedness" so disturbing to the reader in Chapter 1, when it is (or so I thought) explicit in the prologue that Bree "learned to love like her mother?" I love that you raised this question for me.

Angela146: In the notes to the Literotica editor, I specifically pointed out (and asked that special attention be paid) that my character in the prologue (and elsewhere) is flash backing to her childhood and that the prologue is pivotal (which it is) to the remaining story. I stated that I did not feel the prologue erotic in any way as a writer and that the story makes no sense without the prologue and requested that the remaining chapters not be posted to Lit if the prologue were to be rejected.

The prologue is no more or less explicit than any Hollywood film in my opinion and I don't think it is a loophole.

MarshAlien: Thank you for your suggestion for an editor. I have had several well-respected Lit editors go over this story, and I admire each and every one of their opinions and commentary. I continue to accept the fact that a story is never thoroughly edited until an editor believes they have the final say.

Still, I welcome and want all opinions and appreciate yours. I am especially paying attention to your sentiment that I need to round out Amelia's character more attentively. What would be interesting to me, and would help me is ... if you could articulate why you feel more in touch with Ness than Amelia as a reader? I ask this because some comments I have received (not here) are that Amelia is much more alive and interesting and that Ness is dull and boring and that Bree needs to leave him.

Angelicminx: You ask if there is a point to telling the grade that Bree is in when she over-emphasizes her age. The point is simply that this is how children think (at least I recall doing so). A child is never JUST eight, they are 8 and 1/4, 1/3. etc. A child is NOT in grade 2, but in the heirarchy of the school is distinctly in grade 3. This is why I mention it.

As for sweaty palmed and heart racing euphoria? I had photos from Tiger Beat all OVER my wall at that age. Yes is my answer, and much more excited back then about movie stars than I ever am now or even was when I hit grade 6.

Barbarella was Jane Fonda. Duran Duran got their name from the film and at the time (where I lived) it was touted as a "CHILDRENS MOVIE" so all the parents took their kids to see it, much to their chagrin.

You are right - choker - it was simply missed and spell check didn't turn it up for me or anyone else.

Anyhow, thank you all again. I am feeling enlightened by your opinions and also feel like I am getting what I need. Thank you.

 

[angelicminx]

I didn't expect as much feedback as I have received here, but alas I thank you all. I will address you individually with an attempt to be quite objective when referring to my story because there's nothing that would irritate me more than to hear myself try to explain my choices as a writer.

Again, one big thank you to all of you, since if I continue on the thank you line I will never get to respond to you all!

...snip...

Angelicminx: You ask if there is a point to telling the grade that Bree is in when she over-emphasizes her age. The point is simply that this is how children think (at least I recall doing so). A child is never JUST eight, they are 8 and 1/4, 1/3. etc. A child is NOT in grade 2, but in the heirarchy of the school is distinctly in grade 3. This is why I mention it.

As for sweaty palmed and heart racing euphoria? I had photos from Tiger Beat all OVER my wall at that age. Yes is my answer, and much more excited back then about movie stars than I ever am now or even was when I hit grade 6.

Barbarella was Jane Fonda. Duran Duran got their name from the film and at the time (where I lived) it was touted as a "CHILDRENS MOVIE" so all the parents took their kids to see it, much to their chagrin.

You are right - choker - it was simply missed and spell check didn't turn it up for me or anyone else.

Anyhow, thank you all again. I am feeling enlightened by your opinions and also feel like I am getting what I need. Thank you.

Ah, the joys of asking an intelligent question on the AH. You're welcome. I had fun with it. It took up most of my day, but I enjoy critiquing when I have the time.

Now that you mention it, I do recall thinking in quarter, half and three quarter years, once I knew what they meant. Unfortunately I don't have many memories from before I turned twelve. I guess my quandry comes in because this is an adult having a flashback to childhood, as opposed to a child writing it as it happened. How is it that so much detail would be remembered? Is it possible that she wrote most of the detail in a diary or something that same day? Nothing that really has to be answered, just thoughts I had while reading.

On the Tiger Beat thing, I understand. When I asked I was thinking of my own awareness of 'celebrity figures' and boys in general. (Well, girls too. ) Consider my lack of memory. I know when I did discover Shaun Cassidy I was 'in love'.

Barbarella a children's movie?! Omg, wow!

Word didn't turn up choker for me either, which is why I asked if it was an alternate spelling. When I googled 'chocker', it actually hit and went to a site that sold 'chokers'. Go figure.


Anyway, I hope you had fun with this. You might be interested in the Story Discussion Circle. It's great! You ought to check it out.

(Um... when's the next chapter posting? )

 

[Leigh_Hanson]

Ah, the joys of asking an intelligent question on the AH. You're welcome. I had fun with it. It took up most of my day, but I enjoy critiquing when I have the time.

Now that you mention it, I do recall thinking in quarter, half and three quarter years, once I knew what they meant. Unfortunately I don't have many memories from before I turned twelve. I guess my quandry comes in because this is an adult having a flashback to childhood, as opposed to a child writing it as it happened. How is it that so much detail would be remembered? Is it possible that she wrote most of the detail in a diary or something that same day? Nothing that really has to be answered, just thoughts I had while reading.

On the Tiger Beat thing, I understand. When I asked I was thinking of my own awareness of 'celebrity figures' and boys in general. (Well, girls too. ) Consider my lack of memory. I know when I did discover Shaun Cassidy I was 'in love'.

Barbarella a children's movie?! Omg, wow!

Word didn't turn up choker for me either, which is why I asked if it was an alternate spelling. When I googled 'chocker', it actually hit and went to a site that sold 'chokers'. Go figure.


Anyway, I hope you had fun with this. You might be interested in the Story Discussion Circle. It's great! You ought to check it out.

(Um... when's the next chapter posting? )

You are great love. Shaun Cassidy? God, wasn't he just the one you wanted to take control of in the Hardy Boys?

Not sure when I will post next. Time constraints. I will let you know. Thanks again.