FOR REDWAVE: The Maastricht Criteria.

[p_p_man]

Copied from REDWAVE's post on the police thread.

Hey, ppman, what do you think about the Maastricht criteria? Any thoughts on the topic? Hell, you have opinions about everything else!

I have no problems with the criteria. The UK has had a steady economy for a few years now. Gordon Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer has done an excellent job at keeping things on an even keel, even though he has a tendency to exaggerate at times!

The UK met all points of the Maastricht criteria some time ago but, politically, joining the single currency is still a hot potato.

That's why a referendum will not be held until the Chancellor's Five Economic Tests have been met. As you can see they are basically a nonsense, for instance who the hell cares about the impact on the financial services industry joining the EMU will have, especially with pension scandals springing up all over the place.

But the 5 points do put the date we join firmly in the Government's hands. Once it thinks the population is ready, the Five Economic Tests will be declared met, a referendum will be held and we'll be in.

Where we should be.

"As the Chancellor said in his October 1997 statement, the Five Economic Tests will define whether a clear and unambiguous case can be made. The Five Tests are:

 sustainable convergence between Britain and the economies of a single currency;
 whether there is sufficient flexibility to cope with economic change;
 the effect on investment;
 the impact on our financial services industry; and
 whether it is good for employment."

ppman

 

[modest mouse]

Holy Fuck!

No mention of Bush or even the US at all. You feeling ok?

 

[p_p_man]

Holy Fuck!

No mention of Bush or even the US at all. You feeling ok?

Bush seems to have gone into hibernation.

Unless he's kept strictly under guard somewhere and all we're seeing on our screens is a clone.

Until the mid terms are over that it is...

 

[p_p_man]

up...

for REDWAVE.

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

up yet again for REDWAVE...

 

[p_p_man]

up again godammit!

You'll see this eventually...

 

[p_p_man]

up...

Yawn...

ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

OK, now I see it

Well, that's interesting, ppman. You informed me of some details I didn't know about myself. But I have a couple of questions for you:

(1) Don't you think the Maastricht criteria require slashing social programs and imposing "austerity" on the workers?

(2) Aren't you against the powers granted to the European Central Bank (ECB) by the Maastricht agreement, which allow it (a totally unelected, undemocratic institution) to impose sanctions on democratically elected governments for not following the Maastricht criteria?

 

[mig]

Copied from REDWAVE's post on the police thread.


But the 5 points do put the date we join firmly in the Government's hands. Once it thinks the population is ready, the Five Economic Tests will be declared met, a referendum will be held and we'll be in.

Where we should be.

Or to put it another way,when the government thinks it can con
the people to vote yes.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: FOR REDWAVE: The Maastricht Criteria.

Or to put it another way,when the government thinks it can con
the people to vote yes.

Yes I think everyone who keeps up-to-date with current affairs knows that it's a clever ploy by Blair's Governemnt to control the timing of our entry.

But as I want in, I don't mind.

That sort of con they can foist on me anytime they want.

ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

Slippery when wet

Ah, you're a slippery one when it comes to this issue, aren't you, ppman? You haven't answered my two questions. Of course, I can't make you answer, but I would really, really appreciate it if you would.

Here's an online reference which I think lays out the case against adopting the euro pretty well:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/redweb/maast.htm

It's put out by the Communist Party of Britain. It sums up the case at the beginning by saying the Maastricht agreement (establishing the euro) will "create an undemocratic European super-state run by bureaucrats in Brussels in the interests of Big Business."

I think that pretty much sums it up.

So, ppman, I find it highly amusing that so many of my countrymen scream at you for supposedly being too left-wing. In reality, although you posture as being a socialist, the real problem with you is you're too right-wing. You're actually a pawn of European finance capital.


Now what do you say to that?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Slippery when wet

Now what do you say to that?

I haven't forgotten your other questions. I just want time to think about them.

And I haven't entered the links yet because I'm having kippers for tea and you have to give them your whole hearted and uninterrupted attention...

But patience...

Patience...

ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

Patience is my middle name

Actually, I figured you'd be asleep now, due to the difference in time zones, and I'd have to wait several hours for a reply. So take your time, ppman. Enjoy your kippers.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Patience is my middle name

Actually, I figured you'd be asleep now, due to the difference in time zones

It's 19.13 here and yes I usually am asleep at this time...

But that's because of age not time zones...


ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

Euros

I generally enjoy conversing online with Europeans more than with other Americans. The Europeans, even the more conservative ones, are at least civilized . . .

Hey, ppman, how ya comin' there? Are you still meditating and cogitating upon the issues?

 

[Sandia]

Why are y'all talkin about EUROPE???

This is AMERICA, dammit!!!

Love it or leave it, that's what I say...

 

[REDWAVE]

Love it and change it--

that's my motto. The EU (European Union) is a fascinating institution, neither fish nor fowl. There's really no precedent for it in history. It's not a nation, but with the adoption of the euro and the proposed RDF (Rapid Deployment Force), it's starting to become more than just a loose trade confederation of several nations, which it started as. But its future is uncertain. The key questions are: (1) Can Europe (or a large chunk of it, mainly western Europe) peacefully coalesce into unity? (2) If so, what kind of Europe will it be? A Europe run by the bankers and big business, or a Europe run by the workers and peasants?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Love it and change it--

that's my motto. The EU (European Union) is a fascinating institution, neither fish nor fowl. There's really no precedent for it in history. It's not a nation, but with the adoption of the euro and the proposed RDF (Rapid Deployment Force), it's starting to become more than just a loose trade confederation of several nations, which it started as. But its future is uncertain. The key questions are: (1) Can Europe (or a large chunk of it, mainly western Europe) peacefully coalesce into unity? (2) If so, what kind of Europe will it be? A Europe run by the bankers and big business, or a Europe run by the workers and peasants?

The people of Europe are only too well aware of the dangers in creating a new country. The too rapid expansion of our borders to include former Eastern European countries is not something that is universally relished. It smacks of too fast, too soon.

As for the bankers. We need them. We are not trying to create a nation based on outmoded political ideals but rather a nation based on an improvement of the present system.

When Tony Blair came to power in the UK one of the first acts his government passed was to give the fixing of our interest rates to the Bank of England, excluding them from direct political interference. Previously interest rates had always been fixed by government based on political considerations.

Since then the money men have looked at the UK's economy as a business, with an eye always on the bottom line.

The result of Blair's decision? The UK has had a steady and flourishing economy now for a number of years. So much so that even opponents of Blair are admitting that his government is managing the UK economy far better than any previous government.

This gets right up the noses of the Conservatives who have always sold themselves to the electorate as the only party that understands money.

What I'm saying here is that as it has worked in the UK I can see no reason why it shouldn't work in Europe.

But, you're right, we the people have to be very wary in these early stages of our development. And 'early stages' in the time scale we're talking about can be as long as it takes until we have a solid nation state.

ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

Blairite!

Oh, I get it now. You represent the right wing of the Labour Party-- the Blairite "New Labour" crowd! And all those Yanks who think you're a flaming leftist! Boy, will they be disappointed.


"Outmoded political ideals"-- such as what, for instance? We need the bankers? Yeah, like we need anthrax, cancer, AIDS, and diarrhea, maybe! Banks, and other financial institutions, are parasitic entities which prey upon the average person. Allowing the Bank of England to fix interest rates without being accountable to the people (like our Federal Reserve Board-- FRB) was a terrible idea, and highly undemocratic. Don't you think British society has deteriorated under Blair, ppman? He has continued essentially the same policies of slashing social services and dismantling the welfare state created by Clement Atlee and his Labour Party (a very different Labour Party from Blair's!) which were began by Margaret Thatcher, the "Iron Lady"-- whom you profess to despise! What about the state of the British health care system? It's going to hell in a handbasket!

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Blairite!

Oh, I get it now. You represent the right wing of the Labour Party-- the Blairite "New Labour" crowd! And all those Yanks who think you're a flaming leftist! Boy, will they be disappointed.


"Outmoded political ideals"-- such as what, for instance? We need the bankers? Yeah, like we need anthrax, cancer, AIDS, and diarrhea, maybe! Banks, and other financial institutions, are parasitic entities which prey upon the average person. Allowing the Bank of England to fix interest rates without being accountable to the people (like our Federal Reserve Board-- FRB) was a terrible idea, and highly undemocratic. Don't you think British society has deteriorated under Blair, ppman? He has continued essentially the same policies of slashing social services and dismantling the welfare state created by Clement Atlee and his Labour Party (a very different Labour Party from Blair's!) which were began by Margaret Thatcher, the "Iron Lady"-- whom you profess to despise! What about the state of the British health care system? It's going to hell in a handbasket!

The left wing loony label was put on me by others. I never said I was. But those 'others' think that anyone slightly to the left Bush is a pinko commie bastard.

I've never seen my socialism as being part of a world management scheme. It's more personalised than that.

I don't like the social injustices I witness every day. The homeless, the sick who can't get treatment, education out of reach of the masses, the corporations who don't give a damn about the service they provide, crime where the victim is often prosecuted more than the perpetrators, the plight of the elderly not having enough money to enjoy retirement, the illegal imprisonment of prisoners of war on Cuba, the unnecessary destruction of foreign nations...

That sort of thing.

Before I began voting Socialist I was a card carrying and active member of the Liberal Party (now known as the Liberal Democrats) who were the only party at that time to support UK's integeration into Europe.

Now I vote socialist, not because of any ingrained dogma, but because Blair's party has the strength to carry through policies that I agree with.

I see capitalism and socialism working hand in hand for the people, not try to outdo each other on the belief that only their way is the right way.

And I find boring political rhetoric memorised from Party leaflets and outdated books written by failed politicians a complete turn off.

ppman

 

[bluespoke]

Re: Re: Blairite!

And I find boring political rhetoric memorised from Party leaflets and outdated books written by failed politicians a complete turn off.

ppman

Just had to agree wholeheartedly with that.

Although broadly left leaning, I have never folllowed a party dogma. I prefer to think for myself and take the best bits from any system or party.

And now I have to go out into the pissing rain. I'll vote for anyone who can influence British weather!

 

[REDWAVE]

You're beating around the bush (or Bush) . . .

It seems to me you're talking all around the issues here, pp, and avoiding addressing them straight on. Both Blair's policies and those of the EU bureaucracy in Brussels will result in more homeless, more sick who can't get treatment, more assaults on the wages and living conditions of the workers, etc. Yet you support them. Curious-- and it seems to me, self-contradictory.

I say-- Down with the Maastricht criteria! Down with the ECB! The united Europe being created is one ruled undemocratically by the bankers, in which the welfare state is dismantled and European workers are reduced to the lowly status of American workers.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: You're beating around the bush (or Bush) . . .

Both Blair's policies and those of the EU bureaucracy in Brussels will result in more homeless, more sick who can't get treatment, more assaults on the wages and living conditions of the workers, etc.

I say-- Down with the Maastricht criteria! Down with the ECB! The united Europe being created is one ruled undemocratically by the bankers, in which the welfare state is dismantled and European workers are reduced to the lowly status of American workers.

You see what I mean by rhetoric and outdated dogma?

How do you know these things will be the result of EU bureaucracy?

And saying "down with..." doesn't exactly address the issues head on either.

As I said above the EU is being created as an improvement of old systems. It is probably the only country that has ever been created with each step it takes being heavily debated.

Not for us creation out of wars of independence, not for us creation out of revolution and not for us creation out of political coups.

Our creation is a measured step-by-step analysis of what the end result will be.

But it has to be done slowly, slowly...

ppman

 

[REDWAVE]

What? You're saying I engage in rhetoric and outmoded dogma? And I thought before you were just making a general statement, apropos of nothing in particular.


Everyone employs rhetoric of some sort, including me, but "outmoded dogma"? Au contraire! To me the outmoded dogma is the nonsense about the "wonders of free enterprise," which has been thoroughly debunked by the massive wave of business fraud which has occurred. Also, I think I have addressed the issues directly in this thread, and I included a link to that page which goes into more detail. The thing that bothers me the most is the undemocratic nature of the EU which is emerging. I would think that would bother you, too.

As for revolutions, seems I remember quite a few revolutions in European history. There's the English Revolution of the 17th century, the great French Revolution of 1789, the wave of revolution throughout Europe in 1848, the Russian Revolution of 1917 . . .

We live in the era of war and revolution.

 

[p_p_man]

What? You're saying I engage in rhetoric and outmoded dogma?

The thought never crossed my mind...