For Lauren Hynde~ "Tudo quanto"

[Fast1]

Lauren, I found this website on translating Pessoa. I thought you might find it of interest. I would like to know what you think. It may be of interest to others, because it is about word choice.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Thank you, Fast1. I knew of other sections of this site but had never read this particular piece.

Translating a poet like Pessoa is a huge task - almost impossible, I would say - and it is a shame such a great portion of the planet is missing out on the work of someone who would probably be considered hands down one of the three most important poets of the 20th century, had he been an anglophone. I always feel a pang of sadness when trying to introduce his poems to people who can't read the Portuguese original, because so much meaning is lost.

In this site, there's a section with 15 different translations of one of his better-known small poems, and even though they are all fine translations and fine poems, none comes close to conveying all the senses and subtleties of the original. Maybe the only way to do that is to read all those translations, try to catch the pace and sounds of the original, even not understanding it, and from all this synthesize a non-verbal version of the poem in your own mind.

In approximately four hours, it will be the 70th anniversary of Fernando Pessoa's death, which means that by this time tomorrow all his body of work will be public domain. Maybe this will bring forth more and more translations, and more editions of his poetry throughout the world. It would be good.

 

[bogusbrig]

Translating a poet like Pessoa is a huge task - almost impossible, I would say - and it is a shame such a great portion of the planet is missing out on the work of someone who would probably be considered hands down one of the three most important poets of the 20th century, had he been an anglophone. I always feel a pang of sadness when trying to introduce his poems to people who can't read the Portuguese original, because so much meaning is lost.

I think it shows how lucky it is to be a native speaker of a world language if you want to be a writer. There are people in Holland convinced one of their best writers has not won a nobel prize because he writes Dutch rather than a world language.

I don't think poetry can be translated, the concept of the poem is just rewritten by another poet in another language.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I think it shows how lucky it is to be a native speaker of a world language if you want to be a writer. There are people in Holland convinced one of their best writers has not won a nobel prize because he writes Dutch rather than a world language.

I believe that. It was a shock for us all when José Saramago won it in 98 - not for the quality of his writing, which is excellent, but because he had been said to be shortlisted for so many years in a row without winning that everyone had given up on a Portuguese-speaking novelist to ever win a Nobel.

 

[Liar]

I believe that. It was a shock for us all when José Saramago won it in 98 - not for the quality of his writing, which is excellent, but because he had been said to be shortlisted for so many years in a row without winning that everyone had given up on a Portuguese-speaking novelist to ever win a Nobel.

Hmm yes. I thnk it's not only about the language. I guess a bit of it comes down to the elocution and linguistic signum of the writer. Some writers are harder to translate well than others. Some translate well into some languages, and less well into others.

For instance, I've been told that the 96 Nobel winner, Polish Wislawa Szymborska, was apparently read by several of the Academy members in Russian and in French. But not in English or Swedish because her poems translates less well in those languages. While other great writers from our neighbor in the south east sounds much better in Swedish.

 

[wildsweetone]

i think first languages must bring a certain subtle ambience
to a poem that resonates within the same first language readers,
after all, each language also has the baggage
of its culture to carry.

i suggest that translation
is merely a mechanical tool
and the majority of poems sound,
and are most effective, in their original
language.

 

[Fast1]

Thank you, Fast1. I knew of other sections of this site but had never read this particular piece.

Translating a poet like Pessoa is a huge task - almost impossible, I would say - and it is a shame such a great portion of the planet is missing out on the work of someone who would probably be considered hands down one of the three most important poets of the 20th century, had he been an anglophone. I always feel a pang of sadness when trying to introduce his poems to people who can't read the Portuguese original, because so much meaning is lost.

In this site, there's a section with 15 different translations of one of his better-known small poems, and even though they are all fine translations and fine poems, none comes close to conveying all the senses and subtleties of the original. Maybe the only way to do that is to read all those translations, try to catch the pace and sounds of the original, even not understanding it, and from all this synthesize a non-verbal version of the poem in your own mind.

In approximately four hours, it will be the 70th anniversary of Fernando Pessoa's death, which means that by this time tomorrow all his body of work will be public domain. Maybe this will bring forth more and more translations, and more editions of his poetry throughout the world. It would be good.

Thank you,

Unless I am mistaken Pessoa did write some in English?

It almost pains me to see a good translation. A good translation comes as almost an apology with footnoted explanations that this not quite convey. I have to wonder if a good translator does not spend more time than the original author, and as much pain.

I like it when I can compare at least two translations against each other. You get more of a feel for what is missing from each.

Would you mind telling who you consider as the other two?

 

[Angeline]

Thank you,

Unless I am mistaken Pessoa did write some in English?

It almost pains me to see a good translation. A good translation comes as almost an apology with footnoted explanations that this not quite convey. I have to wonder if a good translator does not spend more time than the original author, and as much pain.

I like it when I can compare at least two translations against each other. You get more of a feel for what is missing from each.

Would you mind telling who you consider as the other two?

Pessoa did write in English. He lived in Cape Town, South Africa for much of his childhood, and there developed a love of the English language. I believe his first collection of poems was written in English.

There is a very interesting site, Pessoa's Trunk, that offers thirteen different translations of his poem Autopsicografia (or "Autopsychography" in English). It gives one a fascinating view of how a group of translators interpret the same poem somewhat differently from one another. There are even two different translations of the poem by the same poet--perhaps a nod to Pessoa's own dichotomous style.

 

[flyguy69]

The same can be said, of course, for interpretations of poetry within a single language. Many folks here have suggested that a poem is the intersection of a writer's intention and a reader's interpretation so every poem is a unique experience. The translator adds another layer of each but I can't say de facto that that makes it a worse poem, just different.

It would be interesting to know if there are examples of translations that people regard as being "better" than the original. Each language has its own strengths, so they lend themselves to different aspects of poetry differently. I have read that the Elizabethan sonnet form modified the Petrarchan because English is rhyme-poor compared to Italian; if someone was to translate an English poem into Italian, could they "enrich" the poem with linguistic music? Could such a translation be an improvement?

 

[Angeline]

The same can be said, of course, for interpretations of poetry within a single language. Many folks here have suggested that a poem is the intersection of a writer's intention and a reader's interpretation so every poem is a unique experience. The translator adds another layer of each but I can't say de facto that that makes it a worse poem, just different.

It would be interesting to know if there are examples of translations that people regard as being "better" than the original. Each language has its own strengths, so they lend themselves to different aspects of poetry differently. I have read that the Elizabethan sonnet form modified the Petrarchan because English is rhyme-poor compared to Italian; if someone was to translate an English poem into Italian, could they "enrich" the poem with linguistic music? Could such a translation be an improvement?

I would say it depends on the poem and the translator. I have read various translations of a single poem, and I can think of a few cases where there is one translation of a poem I prefer over others--to the point where I think of that translation as the "real poem." Which says a lot to me about the subjectivity of preference in art. Maybe a particular translation or revision of a poem makes it "better" for you as a reader, but not me. Yes, I think there are certain givens about how to make poems better, but beyond that isn't it really all about individual taste?

Anyway we all know the expression "losing something in the translation," which makes a lot of sense when you consider that every language has expressions that just don't translate fully (or even meaningfully) into other languages. Such an expression might be pivotal in a writer's poem in his or her native language, and that meaning may be completely lost in the translation. I read the translation and think the poem is wonderful, but does that mean that what I get from it is any less "good" than what the writer originally intended?

 

[bogusbrig]

My somewhat alienated other half is a translator English/Dutch, Dutch/French. I've asked her to translate some of my poems. She said I use too much street language and too many colloquialisms that render them untranslatable. She also insists she is not a poet and it needs a poet to translate them because you don't translate poetry you rewrite it in another language. Though she did admit she has no problem translating formal poetry but wouldn't call herself competent enough to put her name professionally to such translations.

Maybe she just doesn't want anything to do with me but she insists that's not the case and that she is being honest with me.

 

[Angeline]

My somewhat alienated other half is a translator English/Dutch, Dutch/French. I've asked her to translate some of my poems. She said I use too much street language and too many colloquialisms that render them untranslatable. She also insists she is not a poet and it needs a poet to translate them because you don't translate poetry you rewrite it in another language. Though she did admit she has no problem translating formal poetry but wouldn't call herself competent enough to put her name professionally to such translations.

Maybe she just doesn't want anything to do with me but she insists that's not the case and that she is being honest with me.

I have toyed with the idea of translating poetry and discussed this in detail with (the now mainly lurking) Darkmaas, who is also not a translator but, like me, is full of opinions.

I think that one should be a poet or at least feel she has a good sense of poetic writing to translate poetry. I think it is also important to feel sympatico with the poetry one undertakes translating. To me, translating poetry is much more than taking words from one language and putting them in words that mean the same thing in another. You have to end up with a poem, not a translation. I suspect that's pretty hard to do--and the better the poem is in its original language, the harder to convey what's good about it in another.

I think she's just being honest with you, Bogus, but then for me the glass is always half full.

I wonder what others think about this--especially those of you who write in English though it is not your native language. Is it harder to translate poetry than non-literary stuff? What are the issues?

 

[Kate.E]

Who cares?

 

[Angeline]

Who cares?

I do, darling.

 

[PatCarrington]

I do, darling.

i'm undecided.

 

[Kate.E]

pfffttttttttttt

 

[Angeline]

i'm undecided.

<pushes you off the fence onto a field of sonnets>

 

[Angeline]

pfffttttttttttt

Can't fool me. That's Katers talk for "I love you, too."

hehehehe<------------------------
(copyrighted by me)

 

[Kate.E]

How dare you quote Beth Orton.

Pfffffttttttttttttttttttt

 

[Angeline]

How dare you quote Beth Orton.

Pfffffttttttttttttttttttt

She said I could

and you're not allowed.

 

[bogusbrig]

I'm bumping this thread up because it is too interesting a thread to lose sight of. Maybe it's just me because I live for the most part in foreign country and do many readings here where English is a second language to much of the audience. Even so, the audiences are remarkably knowledgeable of English and English literature and the thought I might get an easy ride is not the case.

I've had a rather long chat with my alienated other half about translating poetry and she insists she has never read a poem that has been 100% successfully translated. She says she has read many good translations, even remarkable translations and many to be comended but none that are above criticism.

OK She has opinions and luckily this is a poetry site and I don't have to mention her opinions of me.

 

[Fast1]

Pessoa did write in English. He lived in Cape Town, South Africa for much of his childhood, and there developed a love of the English language. I believe his first collection of poems was written in English.

There is a very interesting site, Pessoa's Trunk, that offers thirteen different translations of his poem Autopsicografia (or "Autopsychography" in English). It gives one a fascinating view of how a group of translators interpret the same poem somewhat differently from one another. There are even two different translations of the poem by the same poet--perhaps a nod to Pessoa's own dichotomous style.

Thank you very kindly

 

[bogusbrig]

Trials of a translator

For one reason or another I'm organising the translation of some work of some Dutch poets into English and I'm starting to see some other problems with translations or should I say translating.

My other half who is a translator is doing the translating and she is starting to pull her hair out at what she calls the prima donna attitude of some poets. The poets she is translating understand some English and this is where the problem lies. My other half says one or two of them want her to write a better poem in English than what the original is in Dutch. While I'm telling her no, translate as honest as possible giving the true nature and sensibility of the poem so I can judge it.

She says if she ends up throwing her computer through the window (and having spoken to her earlier this really could happen) I have to buy her a new one. I've had one poet complain to me about his work being denigrated. OK I speak Dutch though nowhere near good enough to translate so I'm in the reverse position of him and to me the translation is very good and better than many translations I've read of poets work translated from Dutch to English.

I'm beginning to understand at times one just has to be brutal, tell the truth and hit the sod over the head with something heavy!

 

[Sabina_Tolchovsky]

I find the babelfish indispensable.

 

[Angeline]

For one reason or another I'm organising the translation of some work of some Dutch poets into English and I'm starting to see some other problems with translations or should I say translating.

My other half who is a translator is doing the translating and she is starting to pull her hair out at what she calls the prima donna attitude of some poets. The poets she is translating understand some English and this is where the problem lies. My other half says one or two of them want her to write a better poem in English than what the original is in Dutch. While I'm telling her no, translate as honest as possible giving the true nature and sensibility of the poem so I can judge it.

She says if she ends up throwing her computer through the window (and having spoken to her earlier this really could happen) I have to buy her a new one. I've had one poet complain to me about his work being denigrated. OK I speak Dutch though nowhere near good enough to translate so I'm in the reverse position of him and to me the translation is very good and better than many translations I've read of poets work translated from Dutch to English.

I'm beginning to understand at times one just has to be brutal, tell the truth and hit the sod over the head with something heavy!

Tell him to stuff it and be glad he's being published.