For all you Iraqi "evidence seekers", here's some.

[JazzManJim]

The Washington Post article summarizes the speech our President made before the UN.

The full text of the speech is here .

The White House Press release which accompanied the speech, including more detailed charges against Iraq is here .

 

[brokenbrainwave]

umm jim, that really did not prove a thing. Keep in mind I have never said there is no justification for strikes against Iraq, I am just against the US leading the way.

 

[floridaguy64]

umm jim, that really did not prove a thing. Keep in mind I have never said there is no justification for strikes against Iraq, I am just against the US leading the way.

Tell that to the folks in NYC, DC, and PA...

 

[JazzManJim]

Sure it did.

It's proven that Iraq has been in nearly-constant violation of every UN resolution passed during and since the cease-fire.

Those violations require action.

The President has made it clear that it is the UN's responsibility to act, but that the US may act on its own and be clearly within the scope of the relevant resolution.

Pretty solid for an opening speech.

 

[sch00lteacher]

umm jim, that really did not prove a thing. Keep in mind I have never said there is no justification for strikes against Iraq, I am just against the US leading the way.

So who would lead the way? Who has a bigger bone to pick with Iraq than us?

 

[70/30]

The foreign minister of Qatar, a key U.S. ally in the Persian Gulf, said his country did not want war in Iraq.

"The United Nations has to play a role," said Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabr al-Thani, speaking in Washington. "We have to work, all of us, to make an effort with the United Nations to say exactly what they want with Iraq."

This guy has a point. UN important. Plan to limit Israeli counter key. Proposals for new government vital.

 

[Spinaroonie]

Tell that to the folks in NYC, DC, and PA...

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

 

[Thrillhouse]

Let's not be too hasty.

None of us as ever been to Iraq. This guy has.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

tweet, time out! I more than understand the viewpoints you guys are making and I will admit to have been somewhat torn on this one. However, no one has been able to explain why the US has to lead the way. Let the Arab States clean up their own mess. If they dont, stop buying their oil and giving them other financial support. Would that be tough on us, yes, but personally it is a price I am willing to pay. We never should be the worlds police force. Its not our charter or our charge. Also, if the Arab States do this, I will be behind any US action 100%. If we go this alone with Britian, well there well be hell to pay.

 

[Thrillhouse]

Isn't it hypocritical to attack a country because they support terrorism, when the US has also been known to support terrorism? Oh, wait. It's not hypocrisy because we're the BEST DAMNED COUNTRY ON EARTH!

 

[floridaguy64]

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Plenty... it is a proven fact that Muhammed Atta met with Iraqi officials prior to coming to the US to train for, plan and complete his actions on those 4 airliners. Do you really think that Saddam just gave him advice? Maybe some of that oil money that was supposed to feed the Iraqi population?

Ahh fuckit, getting through to you is like squeezing water from a rock!

 

[JazzManJim]

The foreign minister of Qatar, a key U.S. ally in the Persian Gulf, said his country did not want war in Iraq.

And yet, the US Central Command is moving its headquarters onto a rather large airbase in their country as we speak.

Can we say "blowing smoke"?

And as to why the Arab countries can't do this. Well, they can. But they won't. They have had decades to use any sort of leadership to broker peace and reign in tyrants and mass murderers, but they haven't.

It's my own opinion that they won't do this because of two reasons. First, a large democracy in their neighborhood is bad for their own personal power bases. Second, because their governments aren't very different in either structure or excersize from Iraq's.

So who else will lead? No one. No one's done it for ten years. No one did it before. As usual, the world is waiting for someone, anyone, to step up and take the lead on this. The United States is doing it, not only because we are Iraq's openly-stated target, but also because it is the right thing to do.

One other question. Exactly what hell will there be to pay for doing this? Wasn't there some sort of hell to pay threatened a year ago when we went into Afghanistan? What's happened? Well, we've killed thuosands of terrorists, deposed a brutal government, instated a democratic government and, most recently arrested yet another high-ranking al Qaeda member.

Has there been hell to pay? Well, sure. For them.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

so florida, we are supposed to bomb the shit out of anyone that does not like us? In that case you better be ready to stay in a constant state of war. Personally I want better for my sons.

 

[JazzManJim]

Let's not be too hasty.

None of us as ever been to Iraq. This guy has.

<laughs>

You're going to use Scott Ritter as your supporting evidence?

Okay. This guy was the *most* vociferous advocate against Iraq and their lies and deceptions and brutality through 1998.

Then there was nothing (well, not quite nothing, but a rather large Iraqi payoff to help fund a little documentary movie he wanted to make).

Now he's Iraq's biggest friend.

I'm not the smartest man in the world, but even I can see when someone's been bought.

(Edited to provide linkage to Ritter's 1998 interview)

 

[70/30]

Plenty... it is a proven fact that Muhammed Atta met with Iraqi officials prior to coming to the US to train for, plan and complete his actions on those 4 airliners. Do you really think that Saddam just gave him advice? Maybe some of that oil money that was supposed to feed the Iraqi population?

Ahh fuckit, getting through to you is like squeezing water from a rock!

Great, glad he spoke to UN. Keep communicating with the international community. Limit Israeli counter. Plan for after the war.

 

[JazzManJim]

Limit Israeli counter.

What in the hell are you talking about?

What Israeli counter?

 

[cccman]

all you guys who are so pro-war.......im sure you are seeing your army recruiter this weekend and are signing up for service. right?? if you are old enough to have kids, im sure you have spoken with them and have signed them up for military service. its always easy to say lets attack when its somebody elses ass or childs ass who is going to get killed and not your own.

the US doesnt have to be the policeman for the entire world. thats one of our problems. we pick and chose what to stick our noses into not based on principle but based on money. we are so concerned with overthrowing communist regimes and dictators but what about the one about 100 miles from Fla. who has been there for 50 years. why have we not liberated Cuba if its all about principle. we havent liberated Cuba because there is no real ecinomic incentive to do such. same with africa. why have we not tried to topple the warloards who slaughter thousands weekly......because africa isnt worth our return on investment. if you're gonna tout war - at least be honest in what our motivations are.

 

[SINthysist]

TROLL




I think the small overlooked fact is Bush gently laying down the gauntlet to the UN and perhaps, just hopefully, perhaps, the first steps towards the United States with-holding it's participation in the UN until it gets out of the government business and returns to being a meeting house for Diplomats the ilk of which I've outlined in my Chinese Court example.

 

[floridaguy64]

so florida, we are supposed to bomb the shit out of anyone that does not like us? In that case you better be ready to stay in a constant state of war. Personally I want better for my sons.

I am prepared to bomb the shit out of any enemy of the state that chooses to invade the continental United States, our embassies abroad, our citizenry wherever they might be worldwide... when thier sole purpose is to kill us!

You must surely realize the simple truths about the region. With exception to Isreal, the middle east is controlled by dictatorships. Oh, you might say Afghanistan and Pakistan should be excluded in that statement, yet only time will tell.

Dictators love power over thier populace and desperately hate the US because we represent everything that they could never hope to be.

 

[70/30]

And yet, the US Central Command is moving its headquarters onto a rather large airbase in their country as we speak.

Can we say "blowing smoke"?

And as to why the Arab countries can't do this. Well, they can. But they won't. They have had decades to use any sort of leadership to broker peace and reign in tyrants and mass murderers, but they haven't.

It's my own opinion that they won't do this because of two reasons. First, a large democracy in their neighborhood is bad for their own personal power bases. Second, because their governments aren't very different in either structure or excersize from Iraq's.

So who else will lead? No one. No one's done it for ten years. No one did it before. As usual, the world is waiting for someone, anyone, to step up and take the lead on this. The United States is doing it, not only because we are Iraq's openly-stated target, but also because it is the right thing to do.

One other question. Exactly what hell will there be to pay for doing this? Wasn't there some sort of hell to pay threatened a year ago when we went into Afghanistan? What's happened? Well, we've killed thuosands of terrorists, deposed a brutal government, instated a democratic government and, most recently arrested yet another high-ranking al Qaeda member.

Has there been hell to pay? Well, sure. For them.

Haji Abdul Qadir killed. Attempted assassination of Karzai. USA unilateral attack piss muslims off a bunch. Can USA backed government survive in Iraq? Limit Israeli counter.

 

[SINthysist]

That's not entirely a mature rebuttal seeing at least two of us are former marines.

That is a specious argument. You cannot say go unless you have gone because then it eventually degrades into you can't speak unless you were there and on my side...

My kid is from a country who threw her into the garbage because she was a girl. I'll teach her to fight for right, and I think she'll understand why.

So that is the lesson of personalizing. Let's try to work with facts, theory, conjecture, deduction, humor, sarcasm, anything but personal attacks or personal experience trumping argument.

Thanks. A_J

 

[brokenbrainwave]

the US doesnt have to be the policeman for the entire world. thats one of our problems. we pick and chose what to stick our noses into not based on principle but based on money. we are so concerned with overthrowing communist regimes and dictators but what about the one about 100 miles from Fla. who has been there for 50 years. why have we not liberated Cuba if its all about principle. we havent liberated Cuba because there is no real ecinomic incentive to do such. same with africa. why have we not tried to topple the warloards who slaughter thousands weekly......because africa isnt worth our return on investment. if you're gonna tout war - at least be honest in what our motivations are.

this part is extremely well put and very very true. It is really all about oil. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[70/30]

What in the hell are you talking about?

What Israeli counter?

USA attack Iraq. Iraq attack Israel. Israel attack Iraq. Muslim militants attack Israel. Everybody attacks everybody. Big war. No control over big war.

 

[SINthysist]

The Holy Jihad was declared to take oil? I damned sure know Saddam's last little outing involved oil, if that's what you mean. But we are not going over there to steal oil. We're going over there to arrest a common brigand who's thumbing his nose at the world. Be my friend, sez Saddam, That way you ensure that I probably won't gass you. I'll leave you for last...

As long as you don't speak up when I come for the others...

 

[p_p_man]

JMJ. You dare to quote a media article and...

present it as evidence...

Sheesh...do me a favour...

ppman