Flipping the script: Are wealthy people necessary?

Le Jacquelope

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In an all too not so surprisingly self serving move, I say the self made rich are necessary, but not so necessary that they can be allowed to crush the middle and poor class, or buy special legal priviledges (such as OJ Simpson buying his way out of a murder conviction, or Bill Gates purchasing a law in Seattle to make his illegal sports car legal).

No rich person on the face of the planet got where they are without the help of the working class, and they need to stop and remember that for a second. It's a pity that some people are so incredibly stupid that they would, in fact, argue that point.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915...c&printer=1;_ylt=AiPnVglhDrQrk2WO5R7_haKb.HQA

Investment adviser asks if wealthy are necessary

By Lisa Von Ahn1 hour, 32 minutes ago

At a time when a CEO of a large U.S. company is likely to earn in one day what the average worker does in a year, an investment adviser takes the income-disparity controversy a few steps further in "Are the Rich Necessary?"

That question, almost unthinkable in a capitalist society, is one of many that Cambridge Associates LLC co-founder Hunter Lewis poses in his latest book (Axios Press, $20).

Lewis, the author of "A Question of Values" and "The Beguiling Serpent," also looks at the profit motive, its effect on democracy and society, and the roles government and central banks should play in wealth distribution.

"Are the Rich Necessary?" offers no simple or even definitive statements on these complex issues. Instead, Lewis presents a cross-section of often divergent viewpoints, in keeping with the book's subtitle: "Great Economic Arguments and How They Reflect Our Personal Values."

These are generally arguments with no clear winner.

On the question of whether the rich are necessary, for example, one school of thought considers them decadent parasites who reap the harvest sown by those less fortunate than themselves.

But another theory contends that any government seizure and redistribution of the fruits of that harvest would cause buyers to disappear and prices to plummet.

There's also the concept that the wealthy are both outnumbered and outgunned financially by the rest of society. As a result, the average consumer rules, and millionaires and billionaires are mere public servants, trustees or social agents, although Lewis acknowledges that such a view might surprise even the deep-pocketed.

In terms of the profit system, some consider it unfair and inefficient, pitting employers against workers. Others say the quest for earnings leads to increased supply and lower prices, benefiting people who have to watch what they spend.

THE PHILANTHROPIC APPROACH

Many theorists advocate progressive taxation -- in which the rich pay more -- as a way to ease the effects of income inequality, but Lewis sees great promise in expanding the nonprofit sector, an area in which he has decades of experience.

He helped start Cambridge Associates in 1973 after working on a review of Harvard University's investment approach, and nonprofit organizations are still the firm's main client base. He has also sat on board and committees of 15 not-for-profit groups.

Philanthropic associations could take over many government functions, such as social services, health, housing and education, Lewis writes. The government could either fund these groups directly or encourage the wealthy to do so with tax credits.

One scenario, he said, would be a simple income tax with only a few allowed deductions. The poor would be fully exempt, and the initial tax bracket would fund the government.

There would also be one or two higher brackets for the rich, who could either pay these additional taxes directly to the government or receive a full tax credit by donating the same amount to registered charities.

An estate tax whose revenues would go to nonprofit organizations is another possibility.

Enlarging this sector, which now accounts for only about 8 percent of the U.S. economy, would mean more money would flow directly to the needy, Lewis said. He also sees philanthropic organizations as more creative and responsive to the people they are trying to help.

But even here, he is careful to list possible objections, such as an aversion to donations as government policy and concerns that charities could become bloated and inefficient.

Still, he sees the nonprofit approach as one way to bring the various economic factions together.

"An expansion of philanthropic values," he writes, " ... could offer a way forward out of the old, bitter, and often sterile economic quarrels of the past."
 
Rich people don't recognize the plight of the laborers who got them rich in the first place because, in economics, people don't exist, just the effect of their existence. People are numbers and most rich people are robots in human skin, posing as people. They live to accumulate, that's all. Walking corporations. Corporate citizens.

I know people who have a lot of money. They spend the vast majority of their life maintaining those 'riches', working non-stop, hardly seeing the homes they spent so much money on. It's easy to be rich. It just depends on what you're willing to sacrifice.

If you live merely to increase the numbers in your bank account, it's easy. That mode of thinking has delivered unto us the majority of these charming people who live by the motto "fuck everything else, just work". These self-serving, money-grubbing automatons. I don't want to be like them. I'd rather drop a brick on their heads and call it a day. Then their family could pile them into a diamond-studded coffin and drop them into a dirt hole. If the point of society and of life is merely to 'keep the machine going', I'd rather sit on the sidelines and watch everyone toil and stress over nothing.
 
Wealthy people are not necessary per se.

But the possibility of becoming wealthy is a pretty important motivator in some aspects of life. It's a key morivator that makes people take business risks, start controversial enterprises, invest in new innovative products and technology. Whithout that our societies would be much worse off than we are today, economically.

So, I guess as figureheads for that, they play a certain role.
 
Liar said:
Wealthy people are not necessary per se.

But the possibility of becoming wealthy is a pretty important motivator in some aspects of life. It's a key morivator that makes people take business risks, start controversial enterprises, invest in new innovative products and technology. Whithout that our societies would be much worse off than we are today, economically.

So, I guess as figureheads for that, they play a certain role.

I have to agree. Unfortunately, greed does motivate society in a way that indirectly benefits it. I'd rather just play the lotto or sell my soul to the Devil rather than go the long, drawn-out way. Give me a shortcut, people!
 
Liar said:
Wealthy people are not necessary per se.

Wealthy people are necessary, per se. Without the tax breaks they get from charitable donations, how else would non-profit organizations survive? ;)
 
flavortang said:
Rich people don't recognize the plight of the laborers who got them rich in the first place because, in economics, people don't exist, just the effect of their existence. People are numbers and most rich people are robots in human skin, posing as people. They live to accumulate, that's all. Walking corporations. Corporate citizens.

I know people who have a lot of money. They spend the vast majority of their life maintaining those 'riches', working non-stop, hardly seeing the homes they spent so much money on. It's easy to be rich. It just depends on what you're willing to sacrifice.

If you live merely to increase the numbers in your bank account, it's easy. That mode of thinking has delivered unto us the majority of these charming people who live by the motto "fuck everything else, just work". These self-serving, money-grubbing automatons. I don't want to be like them. I'd rather drop a brick on their heads and call it a day. Then their family could pile them into a diamond-studded coffin and drop them into a dirt hole. If the point of society and of life is merely to 'keep the machine going', I'd rather sit on the sidelines and watch everyone toil and stress over nothing.
The rich really don't bother me, until they start calling for special privileges and try to alter the law to suit their selfish needs at the expense of everyone else's safety. For instance, trying to remove pollution laws because it's too time consuming or expensive, while forgetting that others besides them have to suffer the deadly consequences of a lack of pollution laws.

It also galls me when rich people and their lap dogs sit around talking trash about how American workers are so lazy and pathetic, when our workers are the most productive in the world, depending on what year they're being measured in. Take away the workers and they don't have shit.

It also makes no sense to me - my wife and both contributed over a million dollars this year to our collective wealth - her faster than me - and we know up close and personal that we'd have nothing without those "layabouts" they call the American worker. Nothing at all. Who would she sell insurance to? The rich? Fuck them - they have their cronies that sell them that. My wife makes hers off businesses, the working class homeowners, and medium fish investors. She'd love nothing more than for the middle class and poor to own more homes - all the more for her to insure. All the more to get mortgages from and open bank accounts at the financial institution whose data center I manage.

We need more working class. Money moves rapidly through working class channels. More money in the hands of the rich only means they'll invest it overseas in some emerging fascist antidemocratic sweatshop market. More money in the hands of the working class means they'll go right to the local store and the local bank, etc. and spend some of it there.

The rich are too stupid to realize that.
 
Liar said:
Wealthy people are not necessary per se.

But the possibility of becoming wealthy is a pretty important motivator in some aspects of life. It's a key morivator that makes people take business risks, start controversial enterprises, invest in new innovative products and technology. Whithout that our societies would be much worse off than we are today, economically.

So, I guess as figureheads for that, they play a certain role.
Well said. That is why greasing the path of upward mobility is so important, while at the same time not making it ludicrously easy.
 
LovingTongue said:
The rich really don't bother me, until they start calling for special privileges and try to alter the law to suit their selfish needs at the expense of everyone else's safety. For instance, trying to remove pollution laws because it's too time consuming or expensive, while forgetting that others besides them have to suffer the deadly consequences of a lack of pollution laws.

It also galls me when rich people and their lap dogs sit around talking trash about how American workers are so lazy and pathetic, when our workers are the most productive in the world, depending on what year they're being measured in. Take away the workers and they don't have shit.

It also makes no sense to me - my wife and both contributed over a million dollars this year to our collective wealth - her faster than me - and we know up close and personal that we'd have nothing without those "layabouts" they call the American worker. Nothing at all. Who would she sell insurance to? The rich? Fuck them - they have their cronies that sell them that. My wife makes hers off businesses, the working class homeowners, and medium fish investors. She'd love nothing more than for the middle class and poor to own more homes - all the more for her to insure. All the more to get mortgages from and open bank accounts at the financial institution whose data center I manage.

We need more working class. Money moves rapidly through working class channels. More money in the hands of the rich only means they'll invest it overseas in some emerging fascist antidemocratic sweatshop market. More money in the hands of the working class means they'll go right to the local store and the local bank, etc. and spend some of it there.

The rich are too stupid to realize that.

That's because most of the rich think that their gains are magical because they're special and that those filthy eyesore workers are just lazy hangabouts.
 
Answer to thread title: Nah, take 'em out and shoot 'em. Do it early, the minute anyone makes a dollar more than you do. That way you provide a warning to any others who might try.
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
Answer to thread title: Nah, take 'em out and shoot 'em. Do it early, the minute anyone makes a dollar more than you do. That way you provide a warning to any others who might try.
You know as well as anyone that this isn't what anyone is espousing - least of all the author of the book that inspired this thread.

Come on now, that just reeks of paranoia.
 
LovingTongue said:
You know as well as anyone that this isn't what anyone is espousing - least of all the author of the book that inspired this thread.

Come on now, that just reeks of paranoia.
Well if they're not "necessary" and all they do is harm everyone else, then my proposal makes perfect sense. I looked in the dictionary but can't find a definition of "rich" that includes a dollar amount, yet I'm sure every person agrees that that they are those who make more than oneself. Very well, why settle for half measures? "Rich" is one-dollar more than oneself - and away with them for good.
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
Well if they're not "necessary" and all they do is harm everyone else, then my proposal makes perfect sense. I looked in the dictionary but can't find a definition of "rich," yet I'm sure every person agrees that that they are those who make more than oneself. We'll never agree on how much more, so why settle for half measures? "Rich" is one-dollar more than oneself - and away with them for good.
You looked in the dictionary but you didn't read the actual article, or what I've been saying. I know you cringed and probably suffered a panic attack, but there is no reason here to lose your calm. Really.

The book does not say the rich aren't necessary. Nor do I, actually.

The question - the name of the thread - did not actually push the answer that you fear. Please read the article. And my posts.
 
Tch. Now, now, LT. Don't make us argue about reasonable positions and actual possibilities. That takes all of the fun out of reductive polemic.
 
Whether rich people are nessecary or not is a moot point. Ventroquilisits and golf players aren't nessecary either. Doesn't mean we should off them. Ok, maybe the golf players, or at least bitch slap them, for their mortal sin of turning strolling into a sport.

The real question to ask: Can one be well off whithout being it at someone else's expense?
 
BlackShanglan said:
Tch. Now, now, LT. Don't make us argue about reasonable positions and actual possibilities. That takes all of the fun out of reductive polemic.
Taking a moment to step back here, I admit that the title of Hunter Lewis's book is extremely inflammatory to say the least. Roxanne and others wouldn't be unjustified in reading such a title and being offended.

While it is the words Hunter Lewis used, I'd like to reword things according to the true spirit of what Hunter Lewis meant: we should really be asking "Are wealthy people overrated?"

That would still be quite offensive to certain people, but it's a lot closer to what Lewis was saying.
 


"Is it hot in the rolling-mill? Are the hours long? Is $15 a day not enough? Then escape is very easy. Simply throw up your job, spit on your hands, and write another 'Rosenkavelier.' "

"Wealth- Any income that is at least $100 more per year than the income of one's wife's sister's husband."

_____________________________
Both quotations are, of course, from the hand of the incomparable and sainted H.L. Mencken.


 
Liar said:
Whether rich people are nessecary or not is a moot point. Ventroquilisits and golf players aren't nessecary either. Doesn't mean we should off them. Ok, maybe the golf players, or at least bitch slap them, for their mortal sin of turning strolling into a sport.

God bless the man. :D

The real question to ask: Can one be well off whithout being it at someone else's expense?

I like that one. I never can quite answer it, either. Possibly there is no simple answer. I think that one can get rich filling a real need better than other people fill it. I'd be happy for the inventors of things like effective anaesthesia or a non-polluting car engine to die wealthy and at ease. On the other hand, I object to a corporate CEO who gulls shareholders and ruins the company golden-parachuting off to a retirement of luxury beyond the dreams of avarice.

Hmmm. Perhaps ... can one get rich swiftly and with little effort without it being at someone else's expense? That I think is pretty nearly impossible.
 
Yanno... I've lived poor enough to have to steal food to eat once a day. And I've lived not much better than that, and upper middle class is no stranger either. The opportunity once arose to live as a wealthy person for a while, but was not taken.

It's been personal experience that the more simply a person is forced to live due to lack of income, the easier it is to find pleasure in small, simple things. There are added stresses to not having a whole lot - worrying about things like meals, housing, transportation, etc. - but they can be balanced out by the little things in the world around us.

It's been personal experience that the wealthier a person tends to be, the less they notice these things. They're too caught up in the gimme gimme and in worrying about who has more what, outspending the Joneses, and the quality of all the worthless crap they can collect. I honestly feel a little sorry for many of them.

It would be nice if they were willing to share a little more with the people that really do need help. I just lost my job and could really use a little assistance with recent medical bills and tuition, for instance, but it's just generally not in their nature.

But the wealthy are worth something. If they weren't around, who would the rest of us make fun of? ;)
 
LovingTongue said:
Taking a moment to step back here, I admit that the title of Hunter Lewis's book is extremely inflammatory to say the least. Roxanne and others wouldn't be unjustified in reading such a title and being offended.

While it is the words Hunter Lewis used, I'd like to reword things according to the true spirit of what Hunter Lewis meant: we should really be asking "Are wealthy people overrated?"

That would still be quite offensive to certain people, but it's a lot closer to what Lewis was saying.

I like your fresh take on the topic, LT. I think it strikes down near that central point that Marx keeps asking: is it a good thing or a useful thing to have a class of people who no longer produce, but instead live off of their capital and multiplication of that capital?

I don't know if you've ever read Ngugi wa Thiongo's Devil on the Cross, but he presents a very interesting new take on an old Biblical story. He looks at the parable of the three servants - the one in which a man goes away on a journey and leaves three of his servants each with some of his money. Two invest it and get more money for it, while the third only saves it carefully by hiding it in a hole.

Traditionally, we look at the two who invest the money as the wise ones - and, of course, we accept that it's all a metaphor for faith, and it's telling us to grow and spread it. However, Nugugi suggests a different way of looking at it. Money, he points out, doesn't breed like sheep or cattle. It doesn't multiply on its own. Yet neither of the first two servants did any work to add to the money. There's only one place left that the additional money could have come from: it had to come from people who did work, but were forced to give some of the fruits of their labors to people who did no work. Is this right? Is this the act of an upright person?

It's an intriguing take. Capitalism traditionally argues that it's useful to have accumulations of capital available for investment, but that does always come at the cost of some of the products of the labor done with that investment going to someone who didn't do any of the labor. One might as easily argue that an aristocracy also concentrates capital and allows large projects to be undertaken; so might a socialist government, through taxation. Is a wealthy class of individuals the best caretaker and repository for this concentration of capital?

I'm on the fence. I see advantages; I see disadvantages. The tricky bit, to me, is that every system works if we let its proponents assume that it's populated by ideal people who use the system as it's intended and don't engage in dishonest or greedy behavior. So few people want to talk about what happens when real and problematic behaviors occur that it becomes difficult to weigh the systems fairly.
 
BlackShanglan said:
I like that one. I never can quite answer it, either. Possibly there is no simple answer. I think that one can get rich filling a real need better than other people fill it. I'd be happy for the inventors of things like effective anaesthesia or a non-polluting car engine to die wealthy and at ease. On the other hand, I object to a corporate CEO who gulls shareholders and ruins the company golden-parachuting off to a retirement of luxury beyond the dreams of avarice.

Just so.

I don't begrudge Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Stephen Wozniak their wealth. They've done things to earn it.

The guys behind Enron and Worldcom deserve the world's most creative torturers to come up with new ways to make them suffer.

I'm joking. Mostly. ;)
 
rgraham666 said:
The guys behind Enron and Worldcom deserve the world's most creative torturers to come up with new ways to make them suffer.

I'm joking. Mostly. ;)

Just to marry our posts - I recall one of those "bargain with the devil" stories in which the wisher begins by wishing for "wealth beyond the dreams of avarice." I could wish on such swindlers what the wisher in the story got - nothing. Nothing is beyond the dreams of avarice. ;)
 
BlackShanglan said:
Just to marry our posts - I recall one of those "bargain with the devil" stories in which the wisher begins by wishing for "wealth beyond the dreams of avarice." I could wish on such swindlers what the wisher in the story got - nothing. Nothing is beyond the dreams of avarice. ;)

:D I love it.

When I was a Dungeon Master one of my players got a wish.

He wished for a billion gold pieces.

The entire party then had to roll up new characters.

They were all standing in a room twenty feet square and ten feet high.

A billion gold pieces takes up a lot more room than 4,000 cubic feet. ;)
 
I see the sniveling, whining, snot nosed little socialists are at it again.

These tiny minded, petty, wannabe dictators, want absolute and utter control over all the means of production, your home, your property, your income, your savings, the resources of your entire family to dispose of or redistribute according to how 'they' see the best interests of the collective might be served.

As they also advocate that the individual has no inherent rights, that only the collective 'group' has and can dispense rights, then there is no rational avenue of recourse when the parasites attack the productive, thus one must eliminate them.

If only we were wise enough to squash them in the larvae stage, things would be so much better.

Instead we have a swarm of Yuppie worms now maturing and demanding to be fed by the hosts.

Gads....
 
amicus said:
I see the sniveling, whining, snot nosed little socialists are at it again.

These tiny minded, petty, wannabe dictators, want absolute and utter control over all the means of production, your home, your property, your income, your savings, the resources of your entire family to dispose of or redistribute according to how 'they' see the best interests of the collective might be served.

As they also advocate that the individual has no inherent rights, that only the collective 'group' has and can dispense rights, then there is no rational avenue of recourse when the parasites attack the productive, thus one must eliminate them.

If only we were wise enough to squash them in the larvae stage, things would be so much better.

Instead we have a swarm of Yuppie worms now maturing and demanding to be fed by the hosts.

Gads....
Yuppy? Me? *snerk!*

Ami, dear, not all of us are what you're saying. You and I have gone rounds about things before - enough times that both of us have had to give a bit in our arguements - and this is another I'll discuss with you if you'd like.
 
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