[Flames fade...] -- wh, 1991-05-01/02

[Senna Jawa]

--

* * *
​

Flames fade in the western sky
in the full view from the hill's western slopes quiet in the darkness.

Non-strangers and strangers
turn on the window electric stars of the slopes
drowning the hills deeper in black.

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go
and my head floats in the faint light
west
where the last flame will die.

Then
I'll explode like a nova.

H. California
1991-05-01/02
​

 

[WickedEve]

Flames fade in the western sky

where the last flame will die.

Then
I'll explode like a nova.

-------------------
Most of the poem is good, but I'm surprised by the lines above. Kind of cliche for you.

 

[Reltne]

Since you have frequently pointed out that each word is important (or at least should be) in a poem, I too am puzzled. Why the double use of "western" and then later "west", when surely only one would suffice? Also do you really need both "window" and "electric"? (I would prefer just "electric" since not all the "stars" are indoors.)

Over all I enjoyed the read, but I would not have thought that you wrote it.

--

* * *
​

Flames fade in the western sky
in the full view from the hill's western slopes quiet in the darkness.

Non-strangers and strangers
turn on the window electric stars of the slopes
drowning the hills deeper in black.

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go
and my head floats in the faint light
west
where the last flame will die.

Then
I'll explode like a nova.

H. California
1991-05-01/02
​

 

[wildsweetone]

hmm...

a sunset...

and, a war scene...

?

 

[Senna Jawa]

--

* * *
​

Flames fade in the western sky
in the full view from the hills quiet in the darkness.

Non-strangers and strangers
turn on the window electric stars of the slopes
drowning the hills deeper in black.

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go
and my head floats in the faint light
west
where the last flame will die.

Then
I'll explode like a nova.

H. California
1991-05-01/02
​

******

Wildsweetone, I should write in general about interpretation versus association versus provocation in poetry. Your "war scene" is an association (rather than an interpretation). The poem has doom in it, an approaching cataclysm, and a gesture of a protest.

Reltne, after reading your comment, I have already removed one of the offending "western" occurences. I hope it's fine now. I disagree about "windows" and "electric". Try and see what happens when you implement any of your suggestions in this respect.

Reltne & Eve, I had some doubts about this poem myself, due to the trifles which you have mentioned, hence I didn't include it in my archive here at Literotica (possibly now I will). Even trivial shortcomings are still shortcomings and as a rule make a text more or less artistically useless.

However, a man exploding like a nova was my own invention. Otherwise, yes, Novas certainly have appeared in poetry earlier too (? or at least I believe they did), they may sound cliched. And still, the poem didn't feel cliched to anybody at the time of posting it on r.a.p., fifteen years ago. To me this poem felt somewhat awkward, clumsy, not smooth.

I had an interesting private email exchange about this poem at the time, with one of the r.a.p. strong poets. Somehow, strong or not, he went into his own world, while I pointed to him what actually was written in the poem. Then he exclaimed surprised something like this: it was all there, black in white!

I am providing an image in the poem with a surgical precision. In particular you may pay attention to the third stanza. The image and the mood and the metaphor are all combined seamlessly. Even if this poem is not a mature, polished piece of art it still has poetry in it, which you will not find too often around (far from it ). But then it is all about taste too.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Reltne, [...]I disagree about "windows" and "electric". Try and see what happens when you implement any of your suggestions in this respect.

Actually, Reltne is basically right. And the respective place in the poem feels heavy (for no good reason), not like poetic language. I just don't see how to fix it well. I am afraid that the simple removing of, say, "electric", does not work either.

I am providing an image in the poem with a surgical precision.

Hmm..., true, but perhaps I am expecting from readers too much. Oh, well, not every attempt ends up as a finished product. (I hope that it was good enough for a thread ).

Thank you Eve, Reltne and Wildsweetone (Wildstone ) for your response.

 

[wildsweetone]

Wildsweetone, I should write in general about interpretation versus association versus provocation in poetry. Your "war scene" is an association (rather than an interpretation). The poem has doom in it, an approaching cataclysm, and a gesture of a protest.

yes you should. so what's keeping you?

Flames fade in the western sky
in the full view from the hills quiet in the darkness.

Non-strangers and strangers
turn on the window electric stars of the slopes
drowning the hills deeper in black.

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go
and my head floats in the faint light
west
where the last flame will die.

Then
I'll explode like a nova.


H. California
1991-05-01/02

would you do me a favour, please? either here or in PM, would you please explain to me the meaning of each line in your poem. and in return, i will explain what i saw.

i'm always seeing stuff different to what the poet's meant. *sigh*

 

[clutching_calliope]

Hockey

.....

 

[Reltne]

Actually, Reltne is basically right. And the respective place in the poem feels heavy (for no good reason), not like poetic language. I just don't see how to fix it well. I am afraid that the simple removing of, say, "electric", does not work either.

Thank you Eve, Reltne and Wildsweetone (Wildstone ) for your response.

You are welcome of course.
Re the offending "turn on the window electric stars of the slopes" (glad you got rid of that other "slope"), would "incandescent", "florescent" or even "Edison" work? - Of course I'd probably screw it up with a completely different tack like "protean stars".

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re the offending "turn on the window electric stars of the slopes" (glad you got rid of that other "slope"), would "incandescent", "florescent" or even "Edison" work? - Of course I'd probably screw it up with a completely different tack like "protean stars".

For another poem "Edison" for "electric" can be very nice, has a great potential. But one cannot add a foreign extra to a poem. "Edison" would be an additional item, an additional image... while poem should be integral, organic.

I don't think that there is a simple fix for:

[...] the window electric stars of the slopes
​

The problem is real, basic. At this place in the poem I should be able to say simply "the stars of the slopes", and it should be understood by the reader that these are windows, when the light is turned on, inside the rooms. Of course this kenning of windows electrically alight can't be just understood. Somehow I would have to prepare this kenning by the earlier part of the poem, so that the meaning would come across easily. I would have to introduce the houses earlier. In order to solve the problem from one line the whole composition has to be adjusted, or at least the first half of the poem. Most likely the whole, in order to maintain integration, proportions and balance. (Poetry is not easy ).

It'd be nice to establish a kenning for the windows alight in the dark.

I don't know if I will work more on the poem (I doubt it), but I still want to answer WSO's request, which would make it easier to see also the situation of the line under this discussion.

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

would you please explain to me the meaning of each line in your poem. and in return, i will explain what i saw.

That's the reverse order (but then the reverse order is a woman's privilege).

BTW, once a poem is presented to the public, the author ceases to exist. The author's view might be extra interesting but it does not carry any additional weight.

* * *
​

Flames fade in the western sky
in the full view from the hills quiet in the darkness.

Non-strangers and strangers
turn on the window electric stars of the slopes
drowning the hills deeper in black.
​

The people inside the houses turn on the lights. In a moment it will be clear that these are the houses on the Eastern slopes. (Of course the otherwise tautological line "Non-strangers and strangers" has its impact on the poem, is important; the poem would be different without it).

A physicist can object to the physically false line about window lights making the hills darker. But poetically it is true: (1) the space next to the windows SEEMS darker due to the contrast (a psychological effect), and (ii) while gradually more and more houses have lights on it gets darker and darker (due to the sunset) -- thus there might be an illusion due to this correlation, that it is the lights in the windows which cause the darkness. This kind of things are poetic truths. One of the worst things an author may do to his/her poem is to explain such things in the poem itself (physically, psychologically, logically...). But you see it happening all the time, how pathetic.

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go
and my head floats in the faint light
west
where the last flame will die.
​

LS (the "Lirical Subject") goes west, which explains the visual effects from the earlier part of the poem. LS' feet and perhaps the entire body is in the shadow, in the dark (that's why feet are "invisible"), while LS' head is still enlighten by the last rays or shine. It's not only the Earth but also the LS him/herself gradually drowning in the darkness.

Then
I'll explode like a nova.
​

************************

Regards,

 

[wildsweetone]

--

* * *
​

Flames fade in the western sky
in the full view from the hill's western slopes quiet in the darkness.

Non-strangers and strangers
turn on the window electric stars of the slopes
drowning the hills deeper in black.

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go
and my head floats in the faint light
west
where the last flame will die.

Then
I'll explode like a nova.

H. California
1991-05-01/02
​

i swear you really don't want to know what i was thinking. i apologise in advance for being so completely off key. i saw a 'basic' poem of a sunset. and i also saw this...


Flames fade in the western sky - flames from fires
in the full view from the hill's western slopes quiet in the darkness. - the firing of weapons has momentarily ceased

Non-strangers and strangers - friend and enemy
turn on the window electric stars of the slopes - flares in the night
drowning the hills deeper in black. - the brighteness makes the darker seem more dark

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go - a soldier on the move
and my head floats in the faint light - head floats for various reasons - the stun of noisy weaponry, the shock of the fight etc...
west
where the last flame will die. -

Then
I'll explode like a nova. - the LS foresees his own death - which seems odd as it comes after 'the last flame will die'...

serves me right for thinking of metaphors (they are the bane of my life, i can't write them properly and mess up when i read them too).

again, my apologies.

 

[clutching_calliope]

.....

 

[Last_Kiss]

WSO, please don't take this as criticism, but why are you apologizing?

As a reader, you are allowed to derive any impression from the poem that you want to take. If you see Senna's poem as a sunset, a sunset to you it is.

Intention is conditional upon the writer, perception belongs to the reader.

My best,
Calli

I believe that's the way it should be. I certainly hope we're not the only ones who agree.

Kiss

 

[wildsweetone]

old habits die hard, sorry.

 

[Last_Kiss]

I believe that's the way it should be. I certainly hope we're not the only ones who agree.

Kiss

I'm not one to rhyme much in poetry. Maybe every now and then. But I noticed since I started posting here, I rhyme in my posts. Go figure.

 

[Last_Kiss]

old habits die hard, sorry.

You said sorry again. I understand your name now.

 

[wildsweetone]

lol *blushing* it's been one of those mornings. lol

 

[tarablackwood22]

--

* * *
​

Flames fade in the western sky
in the full view from the hill's western slopes quiet in the darkness.

Non-strangers and strangers
turn on the window electric stars of the slopes
drowning the hills deeper in black.

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go
and my head floats in the faint light
west
where the last flame will die.

Then
I'll explode like a nova.

H. California
1991-05-01/02
​

Trash it. This will be the most efficient.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Flames fade in the western sky - flames from fires

Perfect! That's how the game of poetry must be played. The reader should see the direct images created by the words, the literal images. And the authors must understand the game of poetry too, or else, when they are mainly preoccupied with the metaphoric interpretation, all they do is something gluey, non-poetic.

in the full view from the hill's western slopes quiet in the darkness. - the firing of weapons has momentarily ceased

Non-strangers and strangers - friend and enemy

But now your reaction is somewhat arbitrary, is exaggerated in a direction which you've selected for whatever reasons. Sometimes the text itself is provoking an exaggerated reaction; here you got provoked for your own peculiar reasons, it happens quite often.

Not fast, not slow, my feet invisibly go - a soldier on the move
and my head floats in the faint light - head floats for various reasons - the stun of noisy weaponry, the shock of the fight etc...

You continue your own version and unfortunately you are missing what actually is in the poem. You didn't pay attention to "invisible", you missed the contrast of the feet in dark versus the head still above the dark. These are the crucial. You don't see such ambitious poetry around hence it is hard to absorb the poetry when it comes your way, people miss it completely unaware of their loss. (Well, when they don't know what poetry is, they don't feel that they have missed anything! ). There is a unity, in the poem, of the Earth and the LS (lyrical subject), both gradually disappearing, both being the participants of the end of the world.

Everything and everybody contributes to the demise, both non-strangers and strangers alike. They make the world darker, they drown the world in the black deeper.

My poem is not a success but at least it has advanced poetic elements, it has a consistent, delicate, precise poetic construction/image. There are not many texts which do poetry on such a level. (Instead, we have some common barking in this thread from certain puppies).

Thank you, WSO,

 

[Senna Jawa]

[whatever]

Ok, Tara, talk is cheap, I'll call your bluff. Here is a short poem. Never mind good or poor. Just tell me about the images which you are able to see. Don't strain your imagination (if any), trying to see things which are not there. Focus on seeing what IS in the poem, quite directly. Ready? Go!

* * *
​

where hills
basked in sun
one whale swims slow
at night

you crowd me
and the elephant shadow
​

H. California
1991-04-15

 

[wildsweetone]

Perfect! That's how the game of poetry must be played. The reader should see the direct images created by the words, the literal images. And the authors must understand the game of poetry too, or else, when they are mainly preoccupied with the metaphoric interpretation, all they do is something gluey, non-poetic.
But now your reaction is somewhat arbitrary, is exaggerated in a direction which you've selected for whatever reasons. Sometimes the text itself is provoking an exaggerated reaction; here you got provoked for your own peculiar reasons, it happens quite often.
You continue your own version and unfortunately you are missing what actually is in the poem. You didn't pay attention to "invisible", you missed the contrast of the feet in dark versus the head still above the dark. These are the crucial things poeticallly. You don't see such ambitious poetry around hence it is hard to absorb the poetry when it comes your way, people miss it completely unaware of their loss. (Well, when they don't know what poetry is, they don't feel that they have missed anything! ). There is a unity, in the poem, of the Earth and the LS (lyrical subject), both gradually disappearing, both being the participants of the end of the world.

Everything and everybody contributes to the demise, both non-strangers and strangers alike. They make the world darker, they drown the world in the black deeper.

My poem is not a success but at least it has advanced poetic elements, it has a consistent, delicate, precise poetic construction/image. There are not many texts which do poetry on such a level. (Instead, we have some common barking in this thread from certain puppies).

Thank you, WSO,

i think i was trying too hard. i tend to look at things and expect them to make sense instantly... it made more sense to me to think along the warring scenario than it did in the way you meant. i have to learn to hmm... slow down and savour and kind of let the words make better sense on their own.

you're right regarding the things i missed, the invisible and the feet in darkness and head in light... i recall thinking it didn't make sense and i guess i must have automatically tried to make sense of it with the knowledge/experience that i have. (i think it didn't make sense because i didn't give myself time to understand, as i mentioned before. and to add to that, several readings after the first i panicked because i thought i'd missed the meaning through the title, so i went and read the title and realised it didn't give me any more clues.)

the word 'explode' in the last line is perhaps too powerful. i think it's that word that tainted my viewpoint.

if the LS is gradually drowning in the darkness, how does 'i'll explode like a nova' fit in? sorry, i don't quite understand that part.

thanks for taking the time to explain Senna... in my stumbling way i'm learning quite a lot.

 

[Last_Kiss]

"Hills Like White Elephants" by Ernest Hemingway

 

[Senna Jawa]

"Hills Like White Elephants" by Ernest Hemingway

That's just an association. The point is about the poetic eye, about the images in the poem, not about metaphors. One can always come up with an irrelevant association, the world is that rich. Anyway, let's see if Tara can do more than to run her loose mouth.

 

[Liar]

However, a man exploding like a nova was my own invention. Otherwise, yes, Novas certainly have appeared in poetry earlier too (? or at least I believe they did), they may sound cliched. And still, the poem didn't feel cliched to anybody at the time of posting it on r.a.p., fifteen years ago. To me this poem felt somewhat awkward, clumsy, not smooth.

The "exploding" line in itself, I have no problem with. I can't say for sure now if my intepretation has been tainted by your explicit explanation of it in this thread, but I believe I saw what you're explaining the first time I read it too. If the nova epression is cliché or not is none of my concern either, I think that depends more on how it's used than that it's used.

However, I'd be interesting in hearing why you felt the need for a similie there at all, be it nova, nuclear bomb or firecracker? What's the reason of exploding (which is a pretty, ahem, explosive verb as it is) like something? And then choosing the most enormous exploion known to man, short of the Big Bang. It gives the poem an hyperbolic flair in my eyes, that I don't think it needs.