Flag trouble - a UK perspective

[Messier82]

Amidst all this broohaha over your Confederate flag, I thought you might be interested to know that we too have had our share of flag-related controversy, (though the only casualty here was someone's career hopes).

My apologies if this reads as patronising but I thought it best to assume that US knowledge of UK domestic issues would be fairly limited (even if we do have a special relationship )

I should explain that unlike in the US we don't tend to have flags outside our homes unless there is a big sporting event happening (eg football or rugby world cups). I won't discuss the issue of flying the respective flags of Northern Ireland & Republic of Ireland, people are still being killed over this issue, so I'll stick to the UK mainland.

Scottish people never get stick for flying their flag, the Saltire or Cross of St Andrew, they're simply being patriotic
http://www.esolscotland.com/welcomepackage/lawfiles/uk4.jpg

Similarly, no Welsh person is called racist for flying their nation's flag:
http://www.hampshireflag.co.uk/images/Flags/Wales-Flag.jpg

This is the Union Jack which covers England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland (note not the Republic of Ireland). This tends to engender some comments about whether you may or not be a racist if it is flown outside your home, as opposed to a government or military building.
http://www.esolscotland.com/welcomepackage/lawfiles/uk2.jpg

However, the flag of St George is purely English, this isn't a 'rebel' flag like the US Confederate flag, this is entirely official and dates back to the 14th century (earlier, if you count it's use by Richard the Lionheart).
BUT... if you should dare to fly this flag you are automatically labelled a racist, sometimes even by your own politicians!

http://www.esolscotland.com/welcomepackage/lawfiles/uk3.jpg

UK politician resigns over tweeted pic of house with England flags

BTW "white van man" has become a commonly used (mainly pejoritive) label which suggests: aggressive driving, limited intellect & reading ability, and most likely racist political views common to the tabloid press.

I often wonder, is there any other country in the world that has sold its culture down the river to the point where we're embarrassed to fly our own flag?

 

[Busybody]

the flag of St George is offensive to Muslims and will come down

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The CSA battleflag was based on the Scottish flag as 95% of Southerners were of Scottish lineage. I come from McDuff, Grant, Alexander, Alan, Drummond, Johnston or de Johnestoune, many centuries back.

 

[Fata Morgana]

the flag of St George is offensive to Muslims and will come down

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a97/foxkitsune/Mobile%20Uploads/giphy_zpsdiue1qgu.gif

 

[Mr Noone]

Flegs are a big issue in NI. Especially with Marching Season starting.

 

[about_average]

However, the flag of St George is purely English, this isn't a 'rebel' flag like the US Confederate flag, this is entirely official and dates back to the 14th century (earlier, if you count it's use by Richard the Lionheart).
BUT... if you should dare to fly this flag you are automatically labelled a racist, sometimes even by your own politicians!

But only by a minority of citizens, at least according to recent surveys.

My understanding is that even that perception is relatively recent, since the Cross of St George was co-oped by racists.

On the other hand, the confederate flag has always stood for states' rights, notably the right to engage in slavery.

 

[oggbashan]

The Flag of St George is flown in many places, on houses and cars, when a prominent England sports team is competing.

It is most prevalent for the English Football team, but can be for cricket as well.

Although racists have tried to hijack the Flag of St George, they haven't made much impact with it.

But NO British Flag has been seen as a symbol of slavery. It may be seen as a symbol of other unpleasant parts of our history, but not slaves.

It could have been, because England was heavily involved in slave trading, but we were also the country to abolish slavery.

 

[Messier82]

Flegs are a big issue in NI. Especially with Marching Season starting.

Precisely why I left Ireland out of my post. I've got family ties to NI and for a while live in Eire.

 

[Messier82]

the flag of St George is offensive to Muslims and will come down

More offensive than this?


Rochdale is a town in northern UK, near Manchester and close to the Yorkshire/Lancashire border. In recent years a large number of Asian men from this town have been jailed for their part in a child-abuse ring involving white girls categorised as 'vulnerable' ie living in care homes etc. This abuse was known to the local Council and the Police, and was ignored by both.

See HERE for background, courtesy of one of the better quality British newspapers


This is Rochdale Town Hall (ie a UK government building), and that is the flag of Pakistan...

https://i2.wp.com/www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/uploads/f1/news/img/2014321_121551.jpg

A number of Asian men were also jailed following discovery of another child abuse ring in Oxford , home of the world famous University.

 

[silversword]

The Flag of St George is flown in many places, on houses and cars, when a prominent England sports team is competing.

It is most prevalent for the English Football team, but can be for cricket as well.

Although racists have tried to hijack the Flag of St George, they haven't made much impact with it.

Although the flag is correctly flown freely across the country, mostly by Church of England churches it does not enjoy the freedom that the Saltire and the Welsh flag enjoy. I suppose as the "senior" partner in the Union England must remain neutral in such issues.

Sadly the need for papers like the Sun championing "Englishness" and in particular giving away St Georges flags with England written on them so that their readers know what they are for, doesn't help.

 

[Busybody]

More offensive than this?


Rochdale is a town in northern UK, near Manchester and close to the Yorkshire/Lancashire border. In recent years a large number of Asian men from this town have been jailed for their part in a child-abuse ring involving white girls categorised as 'vulnerable' ie living in care homes etc. This abuse was known to the local Council and the Police, and was ignored by both.

See HERE for background, courtesy of one of the better quality British newspapers


This is Rochdale Town Hall (ie a UK government building), and that is the flag of Pakistan...

https://i2.wp.com/www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/uploads/f1/news/img/2014321_121551.jpg

A number of Asian men were also jailed following discovery of another child abuse ring in Oxford , home of the world famous University.

Muslims run your country

 

[Dogoda]

I was stationed in Cornwall in 1999 through 2001. A friend of mine and I went to Brands Hatch for the Super Bike races and saw many different flags flying with pride and support for the riders. We flew the Stars and Stripes. There was not a single fight ...that I could tell......over a flag. We were all there for the races and to have good fun........ And drink a few beers.

 

[oggbashan]

I was stationed in Cornwall in 1999 through 2001. A friend of mine and I went to Brands Hatch for the Super Bike races and saw many different flags flying with pride and support for the riders. We flew the Stars and Stripes. There was not a single fight ...that I could tell......over a flag. We were all there for the races and to have good fun........ And drink a few beers.

Look at The Last Night Of The Proms: flags from all over the world and everyone singing together.

 

[Busybody]

Why are we 'embarrassed' to fly the Cross of St George but the vile ISIS flag is FINE?

SHOCKED politicians are demanding to know why police chiefs and Boris Johnson are not keen on stopping the flying of vile Islamic State (ISIS) flags on Britain's streets.

By ROB VIRTUE
PUBLISHED: 03:00, Fri, Jul 10, 2015 | UPDATED: 08:02, Fri, Jul 10, 2015

Authorities have regularly banned the St George cross yet ISIS flag is fine
The feeble reaction by the authorities came amid shocking scenes outside the Houses of Parliament earlier last weekend when officers decided to take no action against a man and a little girl waving the jihadi symbol.

Metropolitan Police chief Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe described the act as "not necessarily the worst thing in the world" while London mayor Mr Johnson today backed him saying "we live in a free country".

But critics have compared the evil jihadi symbol to the Nazi swastika and are gobsmacked no action will be taken over those brazenly supporting the hated terrorist organisation.

Paul Nuttall, deputy leader of the UK Independence Party (Ukip), said: "If someone was walking around waving a swastika what would happen?

"The ISIS flag is just as bad and people should be arrested for waving it."

Mr Nuttall, also MEP for the North West, said the decision not to prosecute was even more bewildering when you compare British authority's actions towards the England's St George's flag.


He told Express.co.uk: "We seem to be embarrassed by the St George flag, which is a flag of peace, and there are often cases of people being told to take it down. But we are prepared to allow a flag flown that is a symbol of hate and intolerance. It's bizarre."

There has been a host of instances of the English national flag being banned over the years including a taxi driver in Devon being ordered to take one down from her cab in 2013 and an army veteran being told by a housing association to paint over a cross on his front door.

And earlier this year the London mayor came under fire himself for being too "frightened" to fly the red cross at a party he held for St George in the capital.


Aides for the mayor said at the time it was not a conscious decision but eyewitnesses were flabbergasted at the lack of a national flag.

While he seemed less keen to celebrate the English national symbol, Mr Johnson defended people's right to wave the ISIS flag.

Speaking today to LBC, Mr Johnson said: "We live in a free country. You would have to have primary legislation to designate certain bits of iconography as being illegal."

He did admit, however, he was against waving the jihadi symbol.

Paul NuttallGETTY
Paul Nuttall compared the ISIS flag to a swastika
He also said he could not make operational decision on behalf of the Met Police who deemed last weekend's actions at Westminster "within the law".

Sunder Katwala, director of think-tank British Future, which looks at integration, said the police decision was difficult to understand.

And he also compared the jihadi symbol to a swastika, saying: "The ISIS flag has no place in Britain. Its meaning is to glorify murder, terrorism and fascism.

"There must be a reasonable case that the police already have the powers to remove it if it is being flaunted provocatively, just as they would a nazi swastika."

 

[oggbashan]

BusyBody stays on my ignore list for a reason. He is a sad invididual constantly preaching hatred.

Almost any of his posts would justify putting him on ignore. He can post if he wants to. I support Free Speech so I wouldn't want to stop his posts.

But I don't have to read them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Societies react to fear. People don't wanna die and they don't wanna lose their incomes. The ISIS flag is OK because Muslim mother fuckers will kill your ass if you object to it, while the police watch and do nothing about it. The police do nothing because queer politicians don't want any Muslims cutting their throats for being homosexuals. Bottom line: Pols wanna be last to die.

 

[Busybody]

BusyBody stays on my ignore list for a reason. He is a sad invididual constantly preaching hatred.

Almost any of his posts would justify putting him on ignore. He can post if he wants to. I support Free Speech so I wouldn't want to stop his posts.

But I don't have to read them.

imagine that

a story where ENGLAND bans its flag

and

allows TERRORIST FLAGS

and Im the HATER!

 

[oggbashan]

Societies react to fear. People don't wanna die and they don't wanna lose their incomes. The ISIS flag is OK because Muslim mother fuckers will kill your ass if you object to it, while the police watch and do nothing about it. The police do nothing because queer politicians don't want any Muslims cutting their throats for being homosexuals. Bottom line: Pols wanna be last to die.

One stupid individual displayed a Dae'sh flag. At present there is no UK law - yet - that bans it. The Cross of St George is displayed in many locations with no difficulty.

If the individual with the Dae'sh flag had also haranged bystanders calling for kuffar to be killed, he would have been arrested.

We Brits (except in Northern Ireland) do not treat flags as seriously as they are treated in the US. Wearing a Union Jack on your boxers or panties is acceptable, and has been since the early 1960s.

 

[Busybody]

BusyBody stays on my ignore list for a reason. He is a sad invididual constantly preaching hatred.

Almost any of his posts would justify putting him on ignore. He can post if he wants to. I support Free Speech so I wouldn't want to stop his posts.

But I don't have to read them.

I know

Lets IGNORE BUSYBODY

HE IS EVIL!


By day, at heart of counter-terror policing. And by night, preacher of extremism
Government watchdog, which inspects police forces’ readiness for terrorism, employed preacher of extremism


The Government watchdog which inspects police forces’ readiness for terrorism admitted that it employed one of Britain’s most notorious Islamic extremists.
For almost two years Abdullah al Andalusi, led a double life, the Telegraph can reveal.

By night, he taught that the terror group Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) was “no different to Western armies,” said that “kaffirs,” non-Muslims, would be “punished in hell” and claimed that the British government wanted to destroy Islam.

By day, using a different name, he went to work for the same British government at the London offices of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC), the official regulator of all 44 forces in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
The disclosures will be intensely embarassing to the Prime Minister, David Cameron, who has criticised parts of Britain’s Muslim communities for “quietly condoning” Islamist extremism.

HMIC’s staff, who number less than 150, are given privileged access to highly sensitive and classified police and intelligence information to carry out their inspections.

The inspectorate’s work includes scrutinising police forces’ counter-terrorism capabilities and top-secret plans for dealing with terror attacks.
It has also recently published reports on undercover policing and the use of informants.

HMIC admitted that Mr al Andalusi, whose real name is Mouloud Farid, had passed a security vetting check to work as a civil servant at the inspectorate.
He was subsequently promoted to executive grade, a management rank, placing him at the heart of the security establishment.

He was only sacked after bosses spotted him on television defending extremist Islamic positions on behalf of his organisation, the Muslim Debate Initiative, which is heavily dependent on Saudi money.

The inspectorate insisted that he did not handle classified material but former friends of Mr al Andalusi said he had done so.

“His work did involve security areas. He said he had a role in overseeing the police response to terrorism and there were areas he couldn’t talk about,” said one former colleague at the Muslim Debate Initiative, who asked to remain anonymous.
“He would discuss the reports that HMIC were working on and the data they needed to present.

“His story is so odd and so scandalous in many respects. He had these two completely incompatible lives that went on for years. He despised Britain, yet worked for the British government. He would talk about the right of oppressed people to take up arms against the oppressor and yet he was overseeing the police.
“Opportunities came along to do dawah [preaching] as a full-time job, but he was never tempted to do that because he had a stable income and pension with the civil service.”
One anti-extremism activist, who knew said Mr al Andalusi, said: “[Al-Andalusi] admitted it to a few people. It is the hypocrisy of it that surprises me.”

MPs have called for a full investigation into how someone with as long a record of extremism as Mr al Andalusi had survived vetting and been appointed to his post.
Under the name by which he was known to HMIC, Mouloud Farid, his links with the Muslim Debate Initiative were a matter of public record.

He was registered as a director of the organisation at Companies House, though he earlier this year changed to yet a third name, Wazir Leton Rahman, on the companies register.

“This man’s unsuitability for sensitive work should have been obvious from the start,” said Khalid Mahmood, Labour MP for Birmingham Perry Barr.
“There is a lack of understanding of different strains of Islam in the civil service. I will be asking why the systems designed to prevent this did not work.”

Mr al Andalusi, a prominent figure on the extremist lecture circuit, is closely associated with the extremist group Hizb ut Tahrir, which believes that voting and democracy are un-Islamic.

He is also a strong supporter of the terrorist lobby group Cage, which sparked outrage earlier this year when it defended the Isil hostage-killer Mohammed Emwazi, “Jihadi John,” as a “beautiful” and “gentle” man who had been radicalised by MI5. Like Cage, Mr al-Andalusi fiercely supports the right of British citizens to travel to Syria to fight.
He spoke at a Cage rally outside his own employer’s parent department, the Home Office, to demonstrate against the arrest of the former Guantanamo detainee, Moazzam Begg, on Syria-related terror charges, later dropped. Alongside him were other high-profile extremists and hate preachers including Haitham al-Haddad and senior figures in Hizb ut Tahrir.

Mr al Andalusi has spoken at at least three other Cage events in the last ten months, including on September 20 last year when he claimed that, as part of its “war against Islam,” the British government wanted to force Muslims to eat non-halal meat.

He says that Western liberal society is committed to the “destruction” of all Muslim belief and shows on his Facebook page a picture a concentration camp with a Nazi swastika and “21st century” written on the watchtower.

In the foreground is a gallows with a short route to the hangman’s noose for “Islamists” and a longer route for “Muslim moderates.”

A spokesman for HMIC said: “Mr Farid was investigated for gross misconduct by taking part in public activity that compromised his impartial service to government, thereby breaching the Civil Service Code. He was suspended immediately whilst investigations were ongoing.”

The HMIC accepted Mr Farid’s resignation in July last year, the spokesman added. But the security lapse has only just emerged – coinciding with the government putting a new statutory duty on public bodies, including schools, to monitor and root out extremism.

In a talk at Queen Mary University, in East London, on 16 January, he asked why the al-Qaeda affiliate in Syria, Jabhat al-Nusra, was treated as a terrorist organisation by the West while the moderate Free Syrian Army was not.
He condemned memorials to 9/11, describing the terror attacks as “the day a vicious world empire [the US] found a publicly-acceptable excuse to bomb others, invade non-threatening nations, torture political dissidents and kill at least 300,000 innocent people.”

After Isil took over large portions of Iraq last year, he wrote that “most Muslims would be jubilant at the return of the caliphate [Islamic state], which is a vital obligation upon Muslims that has been conspicuously missing for so long.”

He condemned the group for killing civilians but said that the West had “no basis to judge Islamic State” because “IS are no different to Western armies and even some of the ‘founding fathers’ of Western nations… IS’s crime is being actually a good student of the West, right down to their corporate structure and organisation and ability to use social media.”
He said that “those who reject IS merely because IS’s school of thought is disagreeable to them should remember that Islam permits difference of opinion. To reject something as outside the fold of Islam, due to it being a different school of thought to one’s own, makes one a purveyor of disunity among Muslims.”
The former friends of Mr al Andalusi said they had left the Muslim Debate Initiative when it became increasingly extreme and dominated by donations from a wealthy Saudi businessman.

One said that he was disturbed by a meeting at which he and Mr al Andalusi heard another man say he wanted to join al-Shabaab, an al-Qaeda franchise, and regarded civilian airliners as legitimate weapons of war. The former friend reported the conversation to police.

The former friend said Mr al-Andalusi used a number of psuedonyms and was always secretive about his real name but eventually revealed it in discussions with them.

Mr al Andalusi, who lives in a subsidised £750,000 housing association flat in Westminster, said last night that as Mouloud Farid he was “proud to work for a public watchdog which holds those in power to account. Cage are peaceful and not proscribed. Kaffir is a theological term which has no relation to non-Muslims.”.
He has previously insisted that he does condemn terrorism and regards it as un-Islamic.

 

[hobbit.]

Gods Master race of choice.

We have a flag which all should kneel and pray before.

This place has gone soft. We need a drone.

 

[Mad_Jack_Rabbit]

Wearing a Union Jack on your boxers or panties is acceptable, and has been since the early 1960s.

Except when it was hijacked in the 70's by the NF, and was still seen as a racist symbol well into the 80's. Seems that has shifted now to the cross of St. George.

Personally I think all national/regional flags are arse-wipe with the possible exception of 1, maybe 2. These kinds of flags mark US from THEM and celebrate division and 'superiority' over other flag wavers. The one POSSIBLE exception to that is the EU flag which at least symbolises an attempt to break down national barriers and celebrate the diversity of cultures within its boundaries.

The other possible exception is the UN flag which at least tries to keep the peace through negotiation rather than by bombing the shit out of countries.

 

[Scotsman69]

There are a couple of interesting questions to be asked about the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

1. Why does it contain no reference to Wales?

2. What happens to it when, as is now inevitable, Scotland regains its status as an independent nation? It will look rather strange without the blue...