Finland gives welfare to all new mothers. The end result?

[LJ_Reloaded]

Aw, hell. Less babies dying.

Ayn Rand wept. But Jesus did not.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Aw, hell. Less babies dying.

Ayn Rand wept. But Jesus did not.

And when did they start doing that in 36??

Sorry dipshit DBZ fag....modern medical advancement has 1,000,000% more to do with that than welfare, you fucking idiot.

 

[Liar]

Factor in things like post WWII peacetime, massive economic growth and increase in living standards, general medical advances and Nordic style universal health care, and it's hard to say exactly what part the maternity allowance plays there.

But yeah, I'm sure it didn't hurt.

 

[Liar]

And when did they start doing that in 36??

Sorry dipshit DBZ fag....modern medical advancement has 1,000,000% more to do with that than welfare, you fucking idiot.

Modern medical advances in themselves do not save many lives though. Universal access to said modernities (or even to many of the old but proven basics) is the name of the game.

 

[landslider2000]

It is a cartoonish oversimplification to depict it as Ayn Rand versus socialism.

 

[Sean Renaud]

It is a cartoonish oversimplification to depict it as Ayn Rand versus socialism.

And who would you use as the figurehead of modern capitalism?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Modern medical advances in themselves do not save many lives though. Universal access to said modernities (or even to many of the old but proven basics) is the name of the game.

Oh I agree...

But I still stand by the fact that medical advancements, our understanding of how the human body works/grows, nutrition, food preparation ect. all did far more to lower infant mortality rates than mom getting a check.

Even in places where there is no universal access these things have massively dropped infant mortality rates since 1936. I'm not saying helping mom out is a bad thing...just that DBZDouche is full of shit.

 

[Liar]

It has done a lot of good though. A great equalizer in the job market. It's basically paid maternity leave, also with the added bonus that you're guaranteed to get your job back afterwards - the employer can only temp it. So a family don't have to worry about losing half their long time livelihood when they most need it, i.e, when spawning new citizens Also lead to a sharp reduction in the number of abortions. Imagine that.

 

[BotanyBoy]

It has done a lot of good though. A great equalizer in the job market. It's basically paid maternity leave, also with the added bonus that you're guaranteed to get your job back afterwards - the employer can only temp it. So a family don't have to worry about losing half their long time livelihood when they most need it, i.e, when spawning new citizens Also lead to a sharp reduction in the number of abortions. Imagine that.

NOW THAT I totally agree with, I'm sure it most certainly does help with the quality of life for a new family. Infant mortality though? Minimal effects at best.

I was reading about some EU nation that helps new parents get a nanny for the first few months, that's pretty fuckin' sweet too. I bet allowing mom and dad to get some sleep has done more for infant mortality than simply sending mom a check has.

 

[Liar]

Fun facts about parental leave:
In the US, New Jersey has the most generous parental leave policy, with 6 weeks with 66% of the parent's (usually mother's) usual pay.
Unless you count Puerto Rico at 8 weeks and full pay.
A handful of other states have some programs, but all less extensive.

Pretty much the rest of the world have way larger paid parental leave programs. Finland, with it's 15 weeks at 80% pay, is fairly modest.
* Iran: 6 months, full pay.
* Israel: 14 weeks, full pay.
* Sweden: 13 months, ~80%
* Czech Republic: Up to 4 years at a flat rate living wage.
* Somalia: 14 weeks, 50% (well, if they can find any money, I suppose)

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

Modern medical advances in themselves do not save many lives though. Universal access to said modernities (or even to many of the old but proven basics) is the name of the game.

Don't confuse Butthurtboy with facts. He probably couldn't even understand the words you just used.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

Oh I agree...

But I still stand by the fact that medical advancements, our understanding of how the human body works/grows, nutrition, food preparation ect. all did far more to lower infant mortality rates than mom getting a check.

Even in places where there is no universal access these things have massively dropped infant mortality rates since 1936. I'm not saying helping mom out is a bad thing...just that DBZDouche is full of shit.

You're not actually contradicting my point that helping mom out is good, but you're claiming I'm full of shit even though you're agreeing with the OP.

Get help, butthurtboy, you're fucking confused.

 

[Liar]

You're not actually contradicting my point that helping mom out is good,

So, your point was not that

"Finland gives welfare to all new mothers."

lead to

"The end result?"

namely,

?

 

[BotanyBoy]

You're not actually contradicting my point

You're right, I totally shit all over it.

that helping mom out is good,

That's not what you said. You said welfare for mom reduces infant mortality rate. You even posted a graph to show how much a check to mom has reduced infant mortality rate since 1936....and you're full of fucking shit.

but you're claiming I'm full of shit

So you can read, amazing.

even though you're agreeing with the OP.

I never agreed with OP, I said medical advancements and access to them has had far far more effect on infant mortality than if mom get's some spending cash after having a kid. And even if it did save a few infants from crazy mommy those saved would be a truly microscopic number at best if you could even actually link the two together.

Get help, butthurtboy, you're fucking confused.

You don't even know what you posted, now kill yourself with a spork, I mean you're a fuckin 40+ y/o DBZ faggot living in your mom's brothel basement and you still can't get laid. No one will miss you bitch....

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

So, your point was not that

"Finland gives welfare to all new mothers."

lead to

"The end result?"

namely,

?

That is my point, and when butthurtboy says "I'm not saying helping mom out is a bad thing", he is not contradicting that at all. He's just raging at me.

Finland's infant mortality rate per 1000 is 3.38, US is 5.9. America's infant mortality rate is worse than Finland's, despite the fact that we have the greatest medical technology in the universe.

Advances in medical technology do not explain why we have a worse infant mortality rate than Finland. Difference in access does.

Butthurtboy is a fucking idiot and he has no cites to back him up. I have all the facts here. Butthurtboy can sit down and shut the fuck up.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

You're right, I totally shit all over it.

You shit all over yourself.

That's not what you said. You said welfare for mom reduces infant mortality rate. You even posted a graph to show how much a check to mom has reduced infant mortality rate since 1936....and you're full of fucking shit.

The CIA says that Finland's infant mortality rate per 1000 is 3.38. The US is at 5.9. America's infant mortality rate is worse than Finland's, despite the fact that we have the greatest medical technology in the universe.

Advances in medical technology do not explain why we have a worse infant mortality rate than Finland. Difference in access does. I am perfectly right and you as usual are a shit for brains fucking retarded babbling idiot.

I never agreed with OP, I said medical advancements and access to them

And Finland grants better access than America does, by giving new mothers a care package right off. You're too stupid to realize how beneficial this is because you were educated by cockroaches in your single-wide garbage dump.

You can't even read you butthurt toilet drinking dickless hick who can't even come back at me except with insults I already used against you. I'd tell you to stop breastfeeding but that would amount to suicide.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Or you could do like most of the people who can read and put him on ignore just like you would anybody else named BB.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

Or you could do like most of the people who can read and put him on ignore just like you would anybody else named BB.

This dude is a special case. Unlike others he honestly believes he can outlast me. Hell, he thinks that if he comes back often enough, he can eventually out-think me.

I'll be dead and decomposed and still be slapping the pimples off his face in battles of wits.

 

[Liar]

That is my point

So your point is that parental welfare caused infant mortality rates to go down?

, and when butthurtboy says "I'm not saying helping mom out is a bad thing", he is not contradicting that at all. He's just raging at me.

But... His point was identical to my point, that parental welfare is by-and-large irrelevant to the infant mortality rate. Or marginal compared to other factors.

He just delivers it in Internet Tough Guy vernacular. Something you should be pretty familiar with too.

 

[Sean Renaud]

How is access to medical care for people who can't afford it not welfare?

This is the same question I asked a few years ago when Obama, Republicans and the Supreme Court were debating the difference between a tax, a fee and a penalty. Does it really matter what word you use for "take my money without my permission"? Don't get me wrong, I support Obamacare and wish it was UHC, that's not remotely my point. My point is that I don't care what you call it if the end result is the same.

Same as this, UHC is clearly a form of welfare/entitlements/giveaways. If you want to waste energy debating on the difference between giving people money, giving people money and giving people money that's fine. Just remember it when I declare that LJ, Botanyboy, Lady Ver, BadBabysitter and Jen are all part of the same gang.

 

[Liar]

How is access to medical care for people who can't afford it not welfare?

It is, but it's not the welfare that was referred to here - the specific welfare to new mothers in Finland, which consists of paid parental leave for a couple of months and, I think, a small subsidy per kid up to a certain age.

Finland also have UHC. Not directed at mothers specifically though.

Same as this, UHC is clearly a form of welfare/entitlements/giveaways. If you want to waste energy debating on the difference between giving people money, giving people money and giving people money that's fine. Just remember it when I declare that LJ, Botanyboy, Lady Ver, BadBabysitter and Jen are all part of the same gang.

We are discussing the difference between giving people money and providing a service to them for free.

If you want to call tax payer funded health care and welfare checks to individuials the same thing, then other Government services, like military protection, is also "giving people money".

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

So your point is that parental welfare caused infant mortality rates to go down?

Absolutely.

But... His point was identical to my point, that parental welfare is by-and-large irrelevant to the infant mortality rate. Or marginal compared to other factors.

I showed that we have a higher infant mortality rate than Finland. Our problem is lack of access, which is directly due to our lack of parental welfare care. Welfare means improved access to care.

 

[Sean Renaud]

It is, but it's not the welfare that was referred to here - the specific welfare to new mothers in Finland, which consists of paid parental leave for a couple of months and, I think, a small subsidy per kid up to a certain age.

Finland also have UHC. Not directed at mothers specifically though.

Okay fair point.

So what would you accept as a justification? I already know (think) you're not against this policy.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

It is, but it's not the welfare that was referred to here - the specific welfare to new mothers in Finland, which consists of paid parental leave for a couple of months and, I think, a small subsidy per kid up to a certain age.

Finland also have UHC. Not directed at mothers specifically though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22751415

So the box provided mothers with what they needed to look after their baby, but it also helped steer pregnant women into the arms of the doctors and nurses of Finland's nascent welfare state.

Brotip: when you sit next to mangy fuckweed idiots like Botanyboy, you risk catching his fleas.

 

[Lady_Fiona]

THIS is the original article that graph came from:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22751415

Just in case no one referenced it

E.T.A its been linked above...sorry