mack_the_knife
Shill of 'The Man'
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Posts
- 1,645
This proposal shall start at the begining:
============================
The current vote averaging system is FUBARed. If you do not believe this, then there is no reason for you to read farther. If you, like me, feel that it does NOT represent the true quality of the stories that it is placed upon, then please read on.
I will submit the following occurances:
============================
Occurance 1-
Writer X has penned for our reading pleasure, a fine work, and many people like it, enough so that they vote for it in droves. At the end of the first week it is out it receives thirty 5's, six 4's, three 3's, one 2 (from a guy who hates iambic pentameter), and a drive by trolling of one 1
Writer Y has also penned a fine work, that appeals greatly to a small number of people, he receives ten 5's, one 4, and that same troll blessed him with one 1.
Now, under the current system, Writer X's average is 4.53 and Writer Y's average is 4.58. You look on the toplist for the category these stories are in. Writer Y's work is placed more highly than Writer X's, not only for the listing, but for the contests at the end of the month. Another troll shot and X won't even be elegible for a 'H' anymore.
Is this a nominal outcome, hell, Writer X got more 5's than Writer Y got total votes. Looking at that, it is quite obvious that Writer X's story is more popular, by far, than Writer Y's.
Now, If you simply total up their points, things become more honestly representative. Writer X got 186 points, while Writer Y got 55. Nothing to be ashamed of, Writer Y, but X's story was far more widely appreciated and liked.
Occurance 2-
"The Story of My Willie" has been out for a month, it has garnered twenty-five votes with an average of 4.51. It is now a 'H' Class story. However, some guy reads it six months later and decides it's not really that great, and gives it a 4. Suddenly, a story that was hot is not? It was hot for six months, then wasn't anymore? BS.
"The Tale of My Cooter" has been out nine months, with only a handful of readers. On it's ninth month of existance, a 10th person finally reads it and awards it a 5, being a kind and generous soul. Suddenly, a story that has accumulated only 10 votes in 9 months is hot? I think not. No, a story that gets just over 1 vote a month is not now, nor has never been a hot item, says I.
Under the point total system. Once you acquire the required points during a stories first thirty days of existance, it is now and forever hot. If it doesn't acquire them it will never become hot due to patience and the fact that the internet never forgets.
Hot implies something that people are eager and interested in, not something that stuck out a period of time without being trolled. It also means something that was hot, and isn't something that stops being hot a few months later. Unless you wish the 'H' marker to be a temporary thing.
Occurance 3-
Writer X and Y are again competing for the top slot in their category. Its near the end of the month and they both need $100 to prevent the bank forclosing on their momma's homes.
Writer Y and X are both neck and neck, X with 40 votes and Y with 20, they both have an average of 4.85.
Writer X is an honorable man and doesn't vote on competitor's stories, nor even his own.
Writer Y is a bit more 'malleable' in his morality, and unobombs X's tale on the 30th. He's never voted on it before, but now X's average drops by several percentage points, putting Y on top.
That might be caught by the moderators, but it might not. In either case. Y has every right to vote a 1 on X. To cancel his vote simply because he's the competing author is disingenuous. So, there is nothing to stop him from at least trying, and he may get away with it.
Under the total points system. He can do NOTHING to harm Writer X. He can only, perhaps, help himself. He breaks down and votes himself a 5. Well, it doesn't add nearly enough, even when he pulls in three or four buddies off of Yahoo chat. He's not going to win, because X has 194 points, and he has only 97 (117 after his shenanigans).
Granted, it won't prevent wholesale vote bulking, but it would make anything but the closest contests hard to influence strongly. I would put down a bit of cash that such vote tampering goes on already, perhaps in a more subtle form.
Occurance 4-
You've just spent two hours reading a long story from a good author. It was good. It wasn't great. It had quite a few grammatical problems. It also had three or four plot inconsistancies that were rather jarring.
You like the author quite a lot, and overall, you enjoy his writing. You would even recommend this story to a few friends that like this sort of tale involving a virgin, a fire brigade, and a box of moon pies. You want the author to get an 'H,' as well, for his story is good enough for that. It's hot and it's hot, ya know?
What do you do? You put a 5 down. Well, anything else would screw him, wouldn't it?
Under the total points system. You can feel good for giving the worthy author of the story you are reading a 4 or even a 3, and not feel guilty, for you have still helped him toward his precious 'H.' Suddenly, you are voting scores that are more-or-less what a story deserves, never fearing that you're fucking the author in the process.
Occurance 5-
Old Writer Z has had a tale on the site for four years. It has accumulated 1,323 votes, with an average of 4.81. Impressive. Well not really because:
New Writer A has just tossed out a story, that people have liked a bit. It has accumulated 34 foves, with an average of 4.82.
No one feels like trolling for some reason, and the story simply stays there for weeks.
Now, for two months, or more, the dear readers, as they peruse the lists, looking for quality texts to feast their eyes upon, come across this listing. They scan down and find Writer A's tale above Writer Z's. Must be better, hmm?
Not really. It's just more liked by a few people. The tale with all the votes is likely the better candidate for a quality read.
Well, yes, new stories will take a long time before they can possibly appear on the all-time all-site favorites listing. Guess what? That is fair and reasonable.
You can always have a 'last 30 days toplist' that showcases the best of the recently written tales on the site.
Now for the only rather sticky part:
============================
Each category is not equal in either potential voters nor in the generosity or harshness of the voter's scorings. A very good story, on Couplings may only garner 35 votes, while a mediocre story on Anal might get 103.
The averaging system does take some care of this issue, however, it is easily overcome by handicapping the lesser active categories.
Basically, the category with the most votes is the base reference category. Categories that get less votes have their stories, for purposes of comparison across categories and for awarding 'H's multiplied by the total of the larger vote number divided by the lesser vote number, then by a small modifier that will prevent them actually gaining an advantage from being in a less overvoted category, I think .9 would do it.
Thus when "The Backdoor Man" gets 200 votes in the first month, totalling 850 points, and the tale "Night with My Old Lady" gets 100 votes in the first month, totalling 500 points. However, anal, the most popular category for purposes of this exercise, had a total of 12,500 votes cast during that month, while Couplings got only 6,250 votes during the same period. You multiply Night with My Old Lady's total points of 200 by (12,500/6,250)x.9, giving us a 1.8 multiple, for 900 points, when compared to the voter-rich environment of Anal. Thus, comparatively, Old Lady was a more loved tale, all in all, but just barely.
The same multiple applies to the vaunted 'H' listing. A number should be selected as the 'baseline,' say 250 points total. Categories that traditionally get fewer votes would have their total divided by that same multiple that they got when being compared to more voted upon categories.
For example, Anal, above would require 250 votes, where Couplings would only need 139 points.
[Please note: I'm not sure that this handicapping' is called for, but it does seem that some categories really don't get enough readership to realistically compete with other categories in overall scoring or even close.]
Having conquered that beast:
====================================================
People are now free of the demon of trolling or one-bombing! Huzzah! (and the crowd rejoiced).
Stories that truly deserve to be on top are now on top, not incessantly being bounced around the top 10 by newcomers with high percentages of 5's. Looking at the all-time toplist lets you see the stories that have been both well-received and have been favorites for a very long time.
You can really vote your mind on a piece without feeling like you're stabbing a buddy in the back while you do so. You simply cannot hurt a story with a low vote, you just don't help it as much.
Hot stories don't suddenly cease being hot, cold stories don't suddenly spring hotness after languishing in the cellar for months.
Averaging encourages trolling and one-bombing, it dillutes the individual vote, and it does not truly represent the kind of wide-spread popularity and enjoyment that great works deserve.
Totalling shows, at a glance, how well received a story is by both its sheer number of voters and by its overall total. If 1,500 people liked it, you may well like it too. It lets stories earn their way onto the overall toplist the hard way, by sheer popularity, not by mathmatical trickery. The ONLY reason for giving a handicap to certain categories is because the disparity is huge in some cases, insurmountably so.
But for a 10 vote 5.00 to even, at any point, ever, be placed higher on any listing than a 250 vote 4.95 is flat out ridiculous. One has 50 points, the other 1,238 points a little smidge of disparity there.
So
============================
I ask the powers-that-be to stop fiddling with the votes, except to cull people voting more than once, and let the totals speak for themselves, not some 'average.'
The total system wouldn't even require that any of the old points awarded already be thrown out, all stories already voted upon have a total, you needed it to divide by the number of votes to get the average. All stories awarded an 'H' at present would keep them.
Kill trolls once and for all, a worthy end result in anyone's book, excepting the trolls.'
Please join me in saying that averaging is the devil's work, it's, well, average!
Affix your agreement below if you think this is a worthy change for the Literotica site, one that should be implemented, rather than looked at, hmm'ed over, then discarded to the wayside in the spirit of not fixing something that is very broken.
It might work, if people were all reasonable, considerate, and forthright, but since anonymity pretty much seems to draw a small cadre of severe antisocial people, it simply does not behoove us to give them any power to actualy do harm to a person's overall score. Far better to let someone help less than actively hurt.
I'm sticking my neck out posting this, inviting the trolls to turn my stories into catastrophic nightmares of plummeting point averages (and they are doing pretty well up to now). Why is change so abhorrent to a large group that prides itself on open-mindedness? Join me in asking the administrators of Literotica to finally fix something they've been having to fiddle with since it's inception.
I hope I convinced some of you who felt the system was fine that the total point system is better by now, I figure some of you stuck around out of sheer obstinance.
============================
The current vote averaging system is FUBARed. If you do not believe this, then there is no reason for you to read farther. If you, like me, feel that it does NOT represent the true quality of the stories that it is placed upon, then please read on.
I will submit the following occurances:
============================
Occurance 1-
Writer X has penned for our reading pleasure, a fine work, and many people like it, enough so that they vote for it in droves. At the end of the first week it is out it receives thirty 5's, six 4's, three 3's, one 2 (from a guy who hates iambic pentameter), and a drive by trolling of one 1
Writer Y has also penned a fine work, that appeals greatly to a small number of people, he receives ten 5's, one 4, and that same troll blessed him with one 1.
Now, under the current system, Writer X's average is 4.53 and Writer Y's average is 4.58. You look on the toplist for the category these stories are in. Writer Y's work is placed more highly than Writer X's, not only for the listing, but for the contests at the end of the month. Another troll shot and X won't even be elegible for a 'H' anymore.
Is this a nominal outcome, hell, Writer X got more 5's than Writer Y got total votes. Looking at that, it is quite obvious that Writer X's story is more popular, by far, than Writer Y's.
Now, If you simply total up their points, things become more honestly representative. Writer X got 186 points, while Writer Y got 55. Nothing to be ashamed of, Writer Y, but X's story was far more widely appreciated and liked.
Occurance 2-
"The Story of My Willie" has been out for a month, it has garnered twenty-five votes with an average of 4.51. It is now a 'H' Class story. However, some guy reads it six months later and decides it's not really that great, and gives it a 4. Suddenly, a story that was hot is not? It was hot for six months, then wasn't anymore? BS.
"The Tale of My Cooter" has been out nine months, with only a handful of readers. On it's ninth month of existance, a 10th person finally reads it and awards it a 5, being a kind and generous soul. Suddenly, a story that has accumulated only 10 votes in 9 months is hot? I think not. No, a story that gets just over 1 vote a month is not now, nor has never been a hot item, says I.
Under the point total system. Once you acquire the required points during a stories first thirty days of existance, it is now and forever hot. If it doesn't acquire them it will never become hot due to patience and the fact that the internet never forgets.
Hot implies something that people are eager and interested in, not something that stuck out a period of time without being trolled. It also means something that was hot, and isn't something that stops being hot a few months later. Unless you wish the 'H' marker to be a temporary thing.
Occurance 3-
Writer X and Y are again competing for the top slot in their category. Its near the end of the month and they both need $100 to prevent the bank forclosing on their momma's homes.
Writer Y and X are both neck and neck, X with 40 votes and Y with 20, they both have an average of 4.85.
Writer X is an honorable man and doesn't vote on competitor's stories, nor even his own.
Writer Y is a bit more 'malleable' in his morality, and unobombs X's tale on the 30th. He's never voted on it before, but now X's average drops by several percentage points, putting Y on top.
That might be caught by the moderators, but it might not. In either case. Y has every right to vote a 1 on X. To cancel his vote simply because he's the competing author is disingenuous. So, there is nothing to stop him from at least trying, and he may get away with it.
Under the total points system. He can do NOTHING to harm Writer X. He can only, perhaps, help himself. He breaks down and votes himself a 5. Well, it doesn't add nearly enough, even when he pulls in three or four buddies off of Yahoo chat. He's not going to win, because X has 194 points, and he has only 97 (117 after his shenanigans).
Granted, it won't prevent wholesale vote bulking, but it would make anything but the closest contests hard to influence strongly. I would put down a bit of cash that such vote tampering goes on already, perhaps in a more subtle form.
Occurance 4-
You've just spent two hours reading a long story from a good author. It was good. It wasn't great. It had quite a few grammatical problems. It also had three or four plot inconsistancies that were rather jarring.
You like the author quite a lot, and overall, you enjoy his writing. You would even recommend this story to a few friends that like this sort of tale involving a virgin, a fire brigade, and a box of moon pies. You want the author to get an 'H,' as well, for his story is good enough for that. It's hot and it's hot, ya know?
What do you do? You put a 5 down. Well, anything else would screw him, wouldn't it?
Under the total points system. You can feel good for giving the worthy author of the story you are reading a 4 or even a 3, and not feel guilty, for you have still helped him toward his precious 'H.' Suddenly, you are voting scores that are more-or-less what a story deserves, never fearing that you're fucking the author in the process.
Occurance 5-
Old Writer Z has had a tale on the site for four years. It has accumulated 1,323 votes, with an average of 4.81. Impressive. Well not really because:
New Writer A has just tossed out a story, that people have liked a bit. It has accumulated 34 foves, with an average of 4.82.
No one feels like trolling for some reason, and the story simply stays there for weeks.
Now, for two months, or more, the dear readers, as they peruse the lists, looking for quality texts to feast their eyes upon, come across this listing. They scan down and find Writer A's tale above Writer Z's. Must be better, hmm?
Not really. It's just more liked by a few people. The tale with all the votes is likely the better candidate for a quality read.
Well, yes, new stories will take a long time before they can possibly appear on the all-time all-site favorites listing. Guess what? That is fair and reasonable.
You can always have a 'last 30 days toplist' that showcases the best of the recently written tales on the site.
Now for the only rather sticky part:
============================
Each category is not equal in either potential voters nor in the generosity or harshness of the voter's scorings. A very good story, on Couplings may only garner 35 votes, while a mediocre story on Anal might get 103.
The averaging system does take some care of this issue, however, it is easily overcome by handicapping the lesser active categories.
Basically, the category with the most votes is the base reference category. Categories that get less votes have their stories, for purposes of comparison across categories and for awarding 'H's multiplied by the total of the larger vote number divided by the lesser vote number, then by a small modifier that will prevent them actually gaining an advantage from being in a less overvoted category, I think .9 would do it.
Thus when "The Backdoor Man" gets 200 votes in the first month, totalling 850 points, and the tale "Night with My Old Lady" gets 100 votes in the first month, totalling 500 points. However, anal, the most popular category for purposes of this exercise, had a total of 12,500 votes cast during that month, while Couplings got only 6,250 votes during the same period. You multiply Night with My Old Lady's total points of 200 by (12,500/6,250)x.9, giving us a 1.8 multiple, for 900 points, when compared to the voter-rich environment of Anal. Thus, comparatively, Old Lady was a more loved tale, all in all, but just barely.
The same multiple applies to the vaunted 'H' listing. A number should be selected as the 'baseline,' say 250 points total. Categories that traditionally get fewer votes would have their total divided by that same multiple that they got when being compared to more voted upon categories.
For example, Anal, above would require 250 votes, where Couplings would only need 139 points.
[Please note: I'm not sure that this handicapping' is called for, but it does seem that some categories really don't get enough readership to realistically compete with other categories in overall scoring or even close.]
Having conquered that beast:
====================================================
People are now free of the demon of trolling or one-bombing! Huzzah! (and the crowd rejoiced).
Stories that truly deserve to be on top are now on top, not incessantly being bounced around the top 10 by newcomers with high percentages of 5's. Looking at the all-time toplist lets you see the stories that have been both well-received and have been favorites for a very long time.
You can really vote your mind on a piece without feeling like you're stabbing a buddy in the back while you do so. You simply cannot hurt a story with a low vote, you just don't help it as much.
Hot stories don't suddenly cease being hot, cold stories don't suddenly spring hotness after languishing in the cellar for months.
Averaging encourages trolling and one-bombing, it dillutes the individual vote, and it does not truly represent the kind of wide-spread popularity and enjoyment that great works deserve.
Totalling shows, at a glance, how well received a story is by both its sheer number of voters and by its overall total. If 1,500 people liked it, you may well like it too. It lets stories earn their way onto the overall toplist the hard way, by sheer popularity, not by mathmatical trickery. The ONLY reason for giving a handicap to certain categories is because the disparity is huge in some cases, insurmountably so.
But for a 10 vote 5.00 to even, at any point, ever, be placed higher on any listing than a 250 vote 4.95 is flat out ridiculous. One has 50 points, the other 1,238 points a little smidge of disparity there.
So
============================
I ask the powers-that-be to stop fiddling with the votes, except to cull people voting more than once, and let the totals speak for themselves, not some 'average.'
The total system wouldn't even require that any of the old points awarded already be thrown out, all stories already voted upon have a total, you needed it to divide by the number of votes to get the average. All stories awarded an 'H' at present would keep them.
Kill trolls once and for all, a worthy end result in anyone's book, excepting the trolls.'
Please join me in saying that averaging is the devil's work, it's, well, average!
Affix your agreement below if you think this is a worthy change for the Literotica site, one that should be implemented, rather than looked at, hmm'ed over, then discarded to the wayside in the spirit of not fixing something that is very broken.
It might work, if people were all reasonable, considerate, and forthright, but since anonymity pretty much seems to draw a small cadre of severe antisocial people, it simply does not behoove us to give them any power to actualy do harm to a person's overall score. Far better to let someone help less than actively hurt.
I'm sticking my neck out posting this, inviting the trolls to turn my stories into catastrophic nightmares of plummeting point averages (and they are doing pretty well up to now). Why is change so abhorrent to a large group that prides itself on open-mindedness? Join me in asking the administrators of Literotica to finally fix something they've been having to fiddle with since it's inception.
I hope I convinced some of you who felt the system was fine that the total point system is better by now, I figure some of you stuck around out of sheer obstinance.
