Filled with the image of Oliver Stone's "JFK"...

[p_p_man]

why isn't the conspiracy theory more widely supported?

ppman

 

[koalabear]

why isn't the conspiracy theory more widely supported?

ppman

Rough experiences while potty training.

 

[Wolf_Song]

why isn't the conspiracy theory more widely supported?

ppman

Easiest answer to that is that there isnt enough information known of the specifics in this case to general public. Thus an informed decision isnt easy to make for most people.

As well JFK had a penchant for speaking against many traditional ways of political thinking and thusly made many enemies. Plus his personal wildness in certain areas enraged many conservative thinkers.

As to whether their were conspirators or just one whom did this.. remains known to one dead person or several alive. With of course the one accused of doing it being killed before being brought to trial leaves room for a lot of conjecture.

Which leaves two wild card alternatives to learn more. One being a living conspirator to say something. Or number two being to talk with the afterlife via a spiritual medium.. if one believes in that sort of thing. Not a lot of options, but if there were conspirators they have had more than enough time to cover tracks.

As far as motive goes.. several had personal and political motives to hate and want JFK dead. As to whether one or more having brought about his assassination remains a mystery to the living.. or does it ?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Filled with the image of Oliver Stone's "JFK"...

Easiest answer to that is that there isnt enough information known of the specifics in this case to general public. Thus an informed decision isnt easy to make for most people.

I've read various reports and parts of the Warren Commission on the matter, but even if there isn't enough information to make a judgement, there's certainly enough unanswered questions to do so.

I watched Oliver Stone's "JFK" last night on TV and it brought the whole thing back to me.

Why was Lee Harvey Oswald being taught Russian by the Navy unless he was part of their intelligence service?

How could he, a notoriously bad shot, fire three bullets with pin point accuracy, with a bolt action rifle, within a matter of seconds when crackshots brought in by investigating bodies couldn't achieve it?

The "magic bullet" that was supposed to have created 7 entry and exit wounds by twisting, doing U-turns, hovering for a couple of seconds, turning left then turning right.

Evidence of bystanders on the grassy knoll ignored.

And plenty more...

The film made me think of the whole corrupt mess again...

ppman

 

[badbabysitter]

Read jim garrisons " On the Trail of the Assasins"

Jim garrison was the kevin Costner role in the movie... funny thing is Jim garrison makes a cameo in JFK ironically as Earl Warren

You thought you had doubts before...read the book...he was the only man to ever bring the case to trial..and they left out a tonne of shit in the film


One of the chilling theories he half proposes is that there wasnt a direct conspiracy...it was merely a bad idea that gained life of its own in the grand shadow government

 

[p_p_man]

Read jim garrisons " On the Trail of the Assasins"

That was one of the sources Oliver Stone used when making his film.

ppman

 

[Wolf_Song]

Re: Re: Re: Filled with the image of Oliver Stone's "JFK"...

I've read various reports and parts of the Warren Commission on the matter, but even if there isn't enough information to make a judgement, there's certainly enough unanswered questions to do so.

This puzzles many.

I watched Oliver Stone's "JFK" last night on TV and it brought the whole thing back to me.

Why was Lee Harvey Oswald being taught Russian by the Navy unless he was part of their intelligence service?

Have only saw that movie once and also took in to consideration of much ad libbing in the script. As far as Oswald being taught russian I wont pretend ignorance and hadnt heard of that previously to your mentioning it.

How could he, a notoriously bad shot, fire three bullets with pin point accuracy, with a bolt action rifle, within a matter of seconds when crackshots brought in by investigating bodies couldn't achieve it?

Several tests were done then and in follow ups even in to the last decade with professional opinions. The last consensus was that it would take some one whom was no less than an extremely capable marine sharpshooter in ability. With Oswalds firing position the breeze that day would have had to be taken in to consideration when firing. Plus the fact of a moving target in a motorcade with firing from an angle among many considerations listed by investigators.

The "magic bullet" that was supposed to have created 7 entry and exit wounds by twisting, doing U-turns, hovering for a couple of seconds, turning left then turning right.

Yes and it has been argued that Oswald's firing position wasnt tragectorally consistent with the bullets point of entry.

Evidence of bystanders on the grassy knoll ignored.

And plenty more...

The film made me think of the whole corrupt mess again...

Definitely a mess and a mystery to many.

ppman

 

[badbabysitter]

Or how about when Oswald went to Russia,,, defected...shacked up with hos future wife marina..daughter of a senior ranking KGB official...gave military secrets which led to the shooting down of the american spy plane

then when he decides to return to america...hes actually given money and a place to stay by government agencies.. and no one raised a fuss

last time i checked, a US marine defecting to the enmy, giving them classified secrets which lead to capure of highly valuable technology wasnt cool... actually aint it technically treason... but some people made sure he came back to America with open arms

 

[p_p_man]

Or how about when Oswald went to Russia,,, then when he decides to return to america...hes actually given money and a place to stay by government agencies.. and no one raised a fuss

Open your mind a bit and ask the obvious question...

Why?


ppman

 

[Wolf_Song]

Oswald's russian adventure.. who could have brought such about ?

Help wanted: CIA is hiring spies

 

[badbabysitter]

When oswald lives in new orleans, one of the jobs he gets is working at a photography studi that specializes in aerial photo surveilance

Conveniently this same building is right next door to the FBI branch in the city

perhpas you remeber the scene in which jim garrison points out..." what an odd place for a marxist to work in...the intelligence center of new orleans" pointing at the many "interesting" buildings

 

[Wolf_Song]

Open your mind a bit and ask the obvious question...

Why?


ppman

Which leads to possible conclusion that Oswald was affiliated with one or more agencies.

 

[badbabysitter]

affiliated?

He was seen at more than one party with clay shaw and ..fuck cant remeber his name...the joe pesci character

Clay shaw, aka Clay bertrand..the head of the Metro International Bank... a pseodo legit company which was booted out of italy for supporting facist parties with money from american subsidiaries

During his interogation, Oswald demands to speak with an FBI agent who he has been in contact with... same agent after leaving private interrogation burns up his notes in front of local police

oswald lists the headquarters of " Fair play for Cuba" as the offices of Guy bannister...a private detective which was a member of the the original ONI..

 

[Lasher]

Re: Re: Re: Filled with the image of Oliver Stone's "JFK"...

I watched Oliver Stone's "JFK" last night on TV and it brought the whole thing back to me.

Take just about anything Oliver Stone gives you with a grain of salt, or two, lol. There are a lot of things in the movie that are changed for the sake of story telling.

Here's a link to a site that has an oustanding selection of JFK resources including the transcripts of the executive sessions of the Warren Commission, autopsy reports for JFK, Oswald and Officer Tippit, the report from the House Select Committee on Assassinations, the individual frames of the Zapruder film and so much more.

The Nook of Eclectic Inquiry

It's always dangerous to base any opinion on one or two sources - especially when one of the sources is Oliver Stone, lol.

But, hey, if you want conspiracy theories, here's my current favorite...

The Watergate cover up occured because Nixon knew that Howard Hunt knew the details of the JFK assassination and was afraid that this would come out if Hunt was not "taken care of" (which led to the discussion of the million dollar pay off between Nixon and John Dean in March of '73). If you're familiar with your Watergate tapes, several times when Hunt's name came up Nixon dismissed discussion of him immediately saying his involvement was "straight national security" and referring to the Bay of Pigs. The detail that Nixon left out was that the Cubans Hunt was involved with during the Bay of Pigs were some of the same Cubans used for the assassination of JFK.

 

[Don K Dyck]

why isn't the conspiracy theory more widely supported?

ppman

Hi PPman, I guess it's because the American people are unwilling to believe that American Big Business and organised crime would assassinate the most popular President in the modern era.

1. Read Anthony Sampson's J Edgar Hoover An Unauthorised Biography - and realise that Hoover knew of the assassination plot in advance and chose to overlook it;

2. Realise that anybody who has brought forward evidence clarifying the events in Dallas has met an "accidental" death;

3. Note that when collecting evidence for their misinformation attempt, the Warren Commission was unable to interview FBI men N0 3 to 10 because they ALL had strange accidents JUST BEFORE testifying; (FBI No 1 & 2 were Hoover and his boyfriend Tolhurst)

4. Garrison was hounded by the FBI and other "security" agencies to get him out of office and off the case;

5. The magic bullet theory is demonstrably false, the FBI spent much effort finding ONE CRACK MARKSMAN to achieve the cyclic firing rate attributed to Oswald. Now Oswald was a lousy shot - and a patsy.

6. Other evidence shows that the hit team was four Mafia gunmen from Marseilles covering the Square in a cross fire. The Grassy Knoll gunman was apprehended by a sheriff who he killed to escape.

7. The evidence goes on. Corporate America wanted a war (sound familiar today??) to increase manufacturing profits. LBJ disliked both Kennedys. Lady Bird Johnson allegedly received 6 million shares in the barge company shipping munitions to Vietnam after LBJ took the US into Vietnam.

8. Oil America was upset that the Kennedys wanted to stop their double dipping of government subsidies. Mafia America was upset that Robert Kennedy was pursuing organised crime after having kept Hoover under control with the Hoover cross-dressing photos, and because of Giancanna assistance to win Chicago.

But then the average American in the street doesn't want to know that he has the most corrupt government in the western world - a tradition that the Dubyah Administration is seeking to exceed with its war-making policies.

 

[Guest]

I predict that REDWAVE will show up around page three or four.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

Re: Re: Filled with the image of Oliver Stone's "JFK"...

Hi PPman, I guess it's because the American people are unwilling to believe that American Big Business and organised crime would assassinate the most popular President in the modern era. . . .

The perception that JFK was a "popular" President is a common one, but I don't think it is true. He's a lot more popular now than he ever was when he was alive. I don't have the figures on his approval ratings at the time (hell, they may not even have had such a thing back then), but all I remember is how much everyone around me (I was a child) hated the man.

Stone's film is compelling visually, but it's such a cobbled-together mess of various theories that it's finally just incoherent, pointing fingers at virtually anyone and everyone.

A couple of other interesting books on the subject are:

Don DeLillo's novel, Libra, which is worth reading just for the section where we get Oswald's interior monologue as he's pulling the trigger.

Gerald Posner's Case Closed, which does a pretty good job of debunking many of the more outlandish interpretations of what happened.

 

[MNGuy]

If you want to see the conspiracy theories torn apart then read Case Closed by Gerald Posner.

 

[bored1]

why isn't the conspiracy theory more widely supported?

ppman

We discussed this awhile back p_p_man.....Dubya was the second assassain on the grassy knoll. Oliver Stone is a moron

 

[RhumbRunner13]

I must concur with and support Hamlet. JFK was not so much hated as seen as a very poor, ineffectual President by November of '63. He had double crossed the CIA and Cubans by denying air support for the Bay of Pigs invasion. The US population did not see the October Missiles crises the way it is portrayed today. JFK's trip to Dallas was a desperate attempt to gain support in Texas where support was declining even with LBJ as VP. The feeling at the time was that he had a very long, uphill climb to be re-elected in '64.

The top selling album in the time period was "Rubber Ducky", a parody of the President and his accent.
"Comedian Vaughn Meader made a brief career with his dead-on impression of then-President John F. Kennedy by recording "The First Family", an entire album of JFK-inspired satire, which shot to #1, went gold, and won a Grammy." Edited to correct title.


P-P, I think the majority of Americans find a great deal of fault in the Warren Report and don't put much stock in it. Beliefs run from the full conspiracy theories up to and including LBJ and the CIA to belief that Oswald was the lone shooter but there was a government cover-up to hide their complete ineptitude in keeping an eye on a known "Communist" radical.

Oswald was not to my knowledge "a notoriously bad shot". I believe he qualified as an "Expert" in the Marines. That does not make him a sniper, but shooting is a skill, not a "born" talent, and can be improved. Let's remember, if he acted alone, he missed his mark two out of three times.

You might check over there, one of the best documentaries I've seen on the subject was done by a Brit film maker. Walter Cronkite also did a good program debunking some of the misleading info in conjunction with, I think, "National Geographic".

Rhumb

 

[RhumbRunner13]

A little research indicates Oswald qualified as a "Shapshooter", the middle level of qualification in the military. He apparently didn't take qualification or care of his weapon very seriously.

As to the movie "JFK", put about as much stock in it as you would "U 571"!

Rhumb

 

[p_p_man]

Thanks for all your comments and links...

on this topic.

I see that the posts have drifted somewhat as to whether Oswald was a poor shot, an average shot, a good shot or whatever.

To me that is the least important consideration of the assassination. In fact after seeing the film and reading some of the links posted here I've more or less come to the conclusion that if he was involved at all, then it was as part of a group.

Then we have the Jack Ruby situation and finally a bit further down the road the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King.

Coincidence? Maybe, but one overriding factor that adds fuel to the fire of conspiracy is the US Government's refusal to allow publication of official papers on the subject.

The event took place nearly forty years ago and most people involved to a lesser degree have, as someone has already pointed out, died. Naturally or under suspicious circumstances.

I think the release date for the papers is something like 2020. Whereas earlier release would clear up some important anomalies.

Mind you I suppose it could also point the finger at some prominent people who are still alive today.

Interesting though. And one more thought I have is the absolute silence of the media. Whereas to gain ratings in leaps and bounds I would have thought a concerted investigation of their own and a release of a report of their own would have been an opportunity eagerly grabbed with both hands.

ppman

 

[RhumbRunner13]

You're right Peeps. LBJ sealed all the evidence "to protect society", as I understand. That is not unprecedented but raises questions. Add the disappearance of critical evidence such as JFK's brain and more questions are raised. It seems every time someone looks into the situation more questions arise than are answered. There probably has been no crime so closely studied in the history of this country as JFK's assasination. Ten or a hundred more investigations would not likely produce any more accurate or provable information than the 10,000 already done.

Rhumb

 

[Hamletmaschine]

In the late '70s there was a special Congressional select committee on assassinations of the Kennedys and King. In the cases of JFK and MLK, I believe they concluded that there was a probable conspiracy. Most people in this country, according to poll figures, agree.

And I also think that the papers are available now under the Freedom of Information Act.

Of course, the fun thing about conspiracy theories is that they can never be disproved. Any evidence pointing to no conspiracy is interpreted as evidence of the cleverness of the conspirators.

 

[badbabysitter]

Personally, I will take anything the comes out of Walter cronkites mouth when it comes to proving Oswald was the assassin..aftrer all NBC is an affiliate of RCA...which still happens to be the number one equpper of electronic supplies to the US military

As for the mafia killing kennedy...well...plausible untill one considers some simple events occuring that day..for one--how could the mob change the route of the presidential vehicle...how could the mob ensure that only a skeleton staff of the secret service was available for JFK's body guard that day

Some people who stop and say..." Oliver Stones movie had so many holes in it.." but then be unable to provide answers for themselves, saying it was oswald and shutting up

I think its still because there is a large portion of the population ( especially in the face of the new american nationalism) that thinks that only other nations do this to their leaders and government.

As for oswald's "sharpshooter" title...he was known to have "maggies drawers", he was a bad to adequate shot at best.. he merely demonstrated an incredible aptitude for languages and electronical know how..which led him to such postings as a radar surveilance post in japan