Feminism SUCKS!!!

[Patryn]

Okay, allow me a little rant here, would ya? Please? Thanks.

I am a student at a relatively well known university, and my job is also there under a work study program. All I know is if I hear "empowerment" one more time, I'm gonna hurl. There's a program here..."Becoming an Outdoors Woman". It's a great program, I've even gone to some of the seminars and learned a great deal, but the point is, the more these estrogen overloaded, buzzword blabbing biddies fight for "empowerment", the more we ALL lose.

I'm not saying that we (speaking of myself and other females here) should be viewed as the weaker sex or walked all over, but good god damn, these people annoy ME, and I'm a woman. NO ONE wants these people around. "Oh, I made a typo and you're pointing it out? Must be because I'm a WOMAN!" "Is there some reason I can't drive to the seminar? Oh, I see, it's because I'm a WOMAN". NO IT ISN'T!!! It's because you mispelled a word and you speed.

I see these people as stuck up and unapproachable. Why can't we just BE women, and let our actions, hobbies and accomplishments speak for themselves? And if someone thinks we can't do something because we are women, then they're living in the dark ages. And don't even get me started on "diversity."

Thanks for lettin' me rant, all. Small disclaimer, as well...that's just my opinion and I don't intend to overgeneralize or offend anyone, and I'd like to hear other opinions whether you agree or disagree.

 

[CreamyLady]

Your place at the university, and in the work study program, is very likely a result of feminism. It used to be incredibly difficult for women to get a place at a good university.

Women are still underpaid; we make less than men for the same jobs. A fact, and it would be worse if it weren't for feminism.

Women would not have the vote if it weren't for feminism.

There are women in the world who can't leave their homes without being accompanied by a male relative -- no feminists there!

In short, you have had a bad experience with unhappy individuals who have to blame their failures on something -- it might as well be gender. If it weren't, it would be their hair color, their physical attributes, anything.

I'm really sorry about that, and I, too, sometimes find the word "empowerment" irritating. It smacks of someone giving me permission to use or have power. However, feminism is not the cause of it. Stupidity is.

 

[Patryn]

Creamy Lady, you bring up some good points that I really hadn't thought of. I do agree with you, but you must also consider that some (not all) of the situations in other cultures/countries you spoke of don't have the same social or economic structure that we do. Still, it IS going on, and that's NOT right. I once worked at a place, in the US, where female employees were not allowed to go to their vehicles, out for a smoke, etc after 10 PM w/o a male employee with them. So I know what you're talking about, and how these people must feel.

I'm not against equality, which is, the way I see it, what you speak of when you say I have a right to go to school here, the right to vote, and that we should be paid the same as men doing the same job. What I'm talking about is the "vagina power" standpoint, and that we should be respected simply because we ARE women.

I was brought up to believe that respect is earned, and also lost, by our actions and accomplishments. I don't think that women, or anyone for that matter, should be disrespected just because of their sex, race, religion, etc, but neither is a huge "issue" is there's no discrimination. Yes, women and minorities are discriminated against more than I personally would like to see, but I guess it's the context in which it's used that gets under my skin. Kind of the "if you are a woman/gay/lesbian/cultural minority, EVERYONE is going to discriminate against you" attitude. That's simply not true.

 

[CreamyLady]

That's very true. Last weekend I attended a forum in which feminism was a hot topic. The point discussed was: what will happen if feminism isn't needed anymore?

The answer, of course, is humanity. Respect for all, and the end of all "isms."

All the women present were over 30, and most of us had done our time as radical separatists. Fortunately, for the most part, we outgrew it. It will happen!

I don't believe we need to organize huge rallies, and make sweeping radical statements anymore. I don't think we need to burn lingerie, or snarl at a man who opens a door for us.

I think, though, we need to remember that wage gap, and mommy tracks and child care issues. I think we need to remember the relentless tyranny of the corporate world over women's self image. We really need to remember the political aspects, too; if we don't take responsibility at the polls, we have no kick coming when some Neanderthal is elected to office and starts bitching about working mothers being irresponsible for not staying home with their kids.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to usurp your rant. This is, however, an issue I care about.

 

[Laurel]

The answer, of course, is humanity. Respect for all, and the end of all "isms."

I agree! Down with vegetarianism, capitalism, pacifism, pauperism, heroism, communism, & humanitarianism!

tee hee!

But I have to agree with Patryn - I hate it when people throw their sex/race/religion/physical disability in my face. I've found that those who relate like that usually do so to cover up inadequacies. Truly successful people don't go around braying about their Womanhood. When I was in college, I ran into a lot of these type of people and it drove me absolutely nuts.

At the same time, I have to agree with CreamyLady in that feminism was a necessary reaction. It's the extremes that define the middle, and it's the hardcore feminists that help to counterbalance the misogynistic bastards and bitches that still exist despite the fact that it's the year 2000. So they're necessary, and so long as I don't have to take a long car trip with either side, I'm fine.

 

[CreamyLady]

I agree with Patryn about that aspect, myself.

The thing is -- and I know I'm older than both of you -- and I SWORE I wouldn't bring it up but I've got to now -- is that I marched for personal reasons.

I couldn't take mechanical drawing in junior high. I had to take cooking and sewing.

I was once attacked in broad daylight, and fought off the jerk. A responding police officer looked at me -- in jeans and halter top -- and said, "Why don't you put some clothes on?"

When I went to work at a bank, there were two beginning positions: teller and clerk typist. Teller paid more; it was held for a man, because "they need to support their families." Neither paid enough to support a hamster, but that was the party line.

Married women couldn't get credit in their own names, no matter what their income. Don't get me started on Roe v. Wade, or entitlement to birth control.

It sounds so antique, but this is what I grew up with, and so much that was gained has been lost. I don't count myself an extremist, but I really have a problem with the statement, "Feminism sucks!" when there is no real understanding of what feminism is about.

I think this grey haired radical feminist is going to go to bed, with her battered copy of The Second Sex, and write a new manifesto, just for the hell of it.

 

[Laurel]

See, if it were women like yourself who were wrapping themselves in the flag of feminism, I could deal with it - women who actually KNOW what discrimination is. Unfortunately, the loudmouth antagonists who called themselves feminists at my college - the ones whining like little piglets because they couldn't use the men's shower or some other weird thing - were often younger than ME, and the worst thing they'd ever encountered was being called "babe" while at the supermarket.

That's what irks me. I'm not saying that everything's completely equal. What I am saying is that we're at a point now where if we want to be treated as equals to men - in the workplace and elsewhere - it's counter-productive to whine and bitch and moan 24/7. Thus far in my life, I've been able to accomplish everything I've ever wanted, despite the "burden" of being a woman.

Yes, I've dealt with chauvanistic shits that would've made better lampshades than they made men (or women). But nothing's stopped me from doing what I want, and I'm a very happy person. So to hear women my own age - who should feel blessed to have been born when they were - bitch about discrimination and the "burden" of womanhood just pops my cap. There are people without legs and arms, who can't breathe without help - THEY'RE burdened.

 

[Jeff726]

Laurel is so cool

See, if it were women like yourself who were wrapping themselves in the flag of feminism, I could deal with it - women who actually KNOW what discrimination is. Unfortunately, the loudmouth antagonists who called themselves feminists at my college - the ones whining like little piglets because they couldn't use the men's shower or some other weird thing - were often younger than ME, and the worst thing they'd ever encountered was being called "babe" while at the supermarket.

That's what irks me. I'm not saying that everything's completely equal. What I am saying is that we're at a point now where if we want to be treated as equals to men - in the workplace and elsewhere - it's counter-productive to whine and bitch and moan 24/7. Thus far in my life, I've been able to accomplish everything I've ever wanted, despite the "burden" of being a woman.

Yes, I've dealt with chauvanistic shits that would've made better lampshades than they made men (or women). But nothing's stopped me from doing what I want, and I'm a very happy person. So to hear women my own age - who should feel blessed to have been born when they were - bitch about discrimination and the "burden" of womanhood just pops my cap. There are people without legs and arms, who can't breathe without help - THEY'RE burdened.

I couldnt think of a better way to say it myself Ms. Literotica. I bow to you in servitude.

 

[Laurel]

<curtsies>

 

[Flagg]

I think that's supposed to be *waves daintily* isn't it?! A courtsey could be a terrible social faux pas you know...

 

[Patryn]

Hmmm...how do I say this the way I actually mean it? Creamy Lady, it really does suck that those things happened to you. I've been discriminated against as well, but never, to my knowledge, because I'm a woman. Once, I got let go from a job because I am white. This place had it SO into their heads to focus on giving minorities a chance that they wouldn't let a qualified caucasian (me) do the job. They didn't come right out and say it, but I know why it happened. And of course, they used all the buzzwords too.

I was also not hired for a job because of my physical stature. I am petite (5'4" and 110 lbs), but physically fit. I know that I was otherwise qualified for the job, and was told later by a friend who currently works at that place and knew I was interviewing that he had talked to the interviewers later, and that was the reason they gave. Isn't that what probationary periods are for...to see if the person is going to work out?

Yes, those things upset me, but by my own choice, I didn't think it was worth fighting. It would have cost me more money and time than those 2 low paying jobs were worth. Maybe I should have for the sake of people who went after me, but...

I DO understand what femininsm is about, and I agree it's necessary. I just don't like the way it's presented a great deal of the time. What's that old addage? You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar? Something like that. Not saying that if you've been discriminated against because of "what" you are, you should remain meek and soft spoken if you feel it's a worthy cause, but there's better ways to go about it than burning lingerie or hating men.

I'm gonna shut up now before I start a serious argument. People's life experiences change their views on a lot of things...maybe I'll feel differently about the whole thing once I graduate and am out in the old proverbial real world.

And Creamy Lady...don't worry about "usurping my rant" I meant what I said when I said it was OK if someone, hell, everyone didn't agree with me.

 

[Gaucho]

The answer, of course, is humanity. Respect for all, and the end of all "isms."

I agree! Down with vegetarianism, capitalism, pacifism, pauperism, heroism, communism, & humanitarianism!

tee hee!

"...of all the isms in the world, the worst is commercialism..."

Anybody know what movie that's from?

I'm sorry. I know this is a stupid post on a very serious thread but when the stuff starts getting a little deep you can either pull on your hip boots and grab a shovel or you can drain the swamp. Personally, I prefer to drain the swamp.

 

[Ted]

Just my 2 cents worth here, and please dont be afraid to tell me Im blowing air out my ass.
I work in a place where women pretty much run the place. Lesbians are treated special (and we have alot, and no, I have no problems with lesbians) although youd never hear someone in management agree with that. I know out in other places, its a mans world, but then you have places like this, where its a womens (and lesbians) world. Either way sucks, best person should win.
Personally, I like to be a gentleman. Im polite, and dont believe chilvary has died. I step aside and hold doors for ladies all the time. I get alot of thank you's and compliments, but I also get that "I can get the door myself cause Im a woman so fuck you" looks. If I dont hold that door, Im a male pig whom dosent value a woman. Either way, Im screwed.
I guess in my perfect world, we would all realize were all equal and special, just different. Instead of everyone trying to prove that they can do everything "joe" can, lets all feature our different talents, and use them together to make this road we all travel together a more pleasent experience.

I apologize for my lack of writing skills. The thoughts are there, my fingers just wont cooperate.

*Peace, Love, and Joy for all*

 

[CreamyLady]

Gaucho: I prefer to drain the swamp, too; however, there are sometimes just too damned many alligators.

Ted: the whole point was to end "entitlements," and, naturally, those had not felt entitled quite often seized the high ground and held it -- mixing my metaphors, as usual, but I think you know what I mean.

Feminism, on the whole -- and there are pockets of me first attitude, I admit it -- has moved beyond the personal and into the community at large. Child care, health care, workplace issues, and simple human rights are far more important than the business of "They say I can't do it because I'm a woman."

One of our discussion points was what killed the ERA. Goodness knows there were many factors, but the biggest was classism -- perceived and real. Divisiveness in any movement is the kiss of death, and it irked the living shit out of many blue- and pink-collar women, of any race, to have overeducated white women calling the shots.

I'm still aiming for humanity. I think it would be so nice to not have to learn to spell new "isms," or tiptoe around them.

 

[Gaucho]

Gaucho: I prefer to drain the swamp, too; however, there are sometimes just too damned many alligators.

My dear lady. That's what the shotgun is for. And while we're on the sbject, maybe we should ban "alities", too? As in "generalities"? Personally, when you start discussing groups of people my eyes start to glaze over and my brain goes numb. I understand the power of getting things done as a group but when you relate to people as a part of a group - any group - rather than as individuals, it's a very short step down the road to de-humanizing them.

Give me a little good old individualism anytime. Oops. That won't work. What about individuality? Oh, Christ. That's even worse.

Can anyone help me out here?

 

[Laurel]

I think that's supposed to be *waves daintily* isn't it?! A courtsey could be a terrible social faux pas you know...

Damnit! I never can keep that straight. Where's Emily Post when you need her?

I'm still aiming for humanity. I think it would be so nice to not have to learn to spell new "isms," or tiptoe around them.

I agree - it took me a good ten minutes to think of those 'isms', and I still forgot commercialism! Lord almighty, my brain's going. There's a Vonnegut quote I brutalize often, and it goes something like "You don't have to love your neighbor, but for Lord's sake, be polite." I think it's from "God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater", but with this sudden outbreak of Alzheimers I could be mistaken. Anyhow, I agree with Vonnegut, and with CreamyLady. Treat all people with respect, and you'll get it back twofold.

 

[Whispersecret]

I am with you, Patryn. I've talked about my views on feminism, as it is today, and what I think it's leached from women. The feminist movement has indeed brought us many good things, like CreamyLady mentioned, but it has also rendered our society somewhat genderless, and maybe even anti-men.

Look at the commericals on television. The man is always made to be the buffoon. That is because if the advertisers made the woman look like the stupid one, the feminists would be up in arms. Right now it's perfectly okay to bash men. I get forwarded email all the time with men-bashing jokes. If I could choose a sex to be, it certainly wouldn't be male, only because the role of the male has been debased, reduced, ridiculed, and blurred. I wouldn't know how to behave. I'd probably end up gay, because if I came on to a woman I would probably be accused of sexual harassment.

Personally, I celebrate the differences between the sexes. Men and women are not and never will be the same. It seems silly to me to try and make them that way.

 

[Weird Harold]

you must also consider that some (not all) of the situations in other cultures/countries you spoke of don't have the same social or economic structure that we do. Still, it IS going on, and that's NOT right. I once worked at a place, in the US, where female employees were not allowed to go to their vehicles, out for a smoke, etc after 10 PM w/o a male employee with them. So I know what you're talking about, and how these people must feel

I think there is a difference between the cultural limitations on women's movements because the women are considered 'property' and the concern for the safety of female employees implied by the 10:00 pm time frame for female employees requiring escorts.

The latter is a misguided and chauvinistic attempt to provide for the safety of employees, while the former is a cultural statement that women are lesser beings. The fact that some of the women are better able to protect the men required to escort them to their cars is irrelevant to the intent of that rule.

There are a lot of things that still need to be done to bring true equality to women in our western society, some of which I hope never happen. Specifically, the suppression of manners. I have observed personally the effect of good manners in keeping women from being allowed to do the job assigned. There is a tendency for men to want to impress women that's deeply ingrained in our biology. I've watched men drop their own task to assist a woman who doesn't need any help simply because of "good manners" and a need to "impress" the woman.

The rabid "femi-nazis" that want everything weighted in a woman's favor don't understand simple biology. Men and women are never going to be the same, and there is no way to artificially erase the differences.

What can be accomplished is a disregard for gender in determining who is best for any given task. Taken as a group, there are certain things that women are better at than men and vice versa. However, on an individual basis, the right person for any given task is the one who can do it the best, regardless of their gender.

Getting that rather simplified idea embedded in our collective conciousness is going to take centuries of emphasis in the educational system and legal system. UNtil every child grows up with the idea that gender doesn't have a specific role, then there will always be gender bias.

 

[CreamyLady]

I read WhisperSecret's response before I went to dinner, and didn't want to reply until I'd had a least one margarita. I've had four. I think I'm calm enough now. I also think this is one of those generational things that will never, ever be solved.

It is never right to bash anyone, for gender, sexual orientation, religious preference, race -- you name it, it's wrong. I hate shouting, but I'm going to, right now: FEMINISM IS NOT ABOUT HATING MEN. IT IS NOT ABOUT WOMEN BECOMING THE SAME AS MEN. IT IS ABOUT EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW AND MUTUAL RESPECT.

The extremists in any group make life very much harder for those trying to work for change. When I hear people put the feminist movement in the history books ("it brought us some good things"), I could scream.

It brought us necessary things, ladies and gentlemen. It brought us our own credit, opportunities for jobs and education, opened closed-shop trades to women.

There was a time, not so long past, when a woman raped by her husband couldn't charge him. Date rape was once not regarded as a crime. A woman's entire sexual history was fair game in a rape investigation and trial.

It cracked the door on women's sports, providing equal money and access to girls' sports programs. Women's accomplishments are still largely left out of history books.

Do I need to mention access to birth control and Roe v. Wade, both of which are constantly under attack?

None of this came about because women behaved in a ladylike fashion. No one would listen. We had to march, to rant, to demonstrate, to demand, to organize, to flex our muscles and be shrill. As Mother Mary Jones said, "Whatever your fight, don't be ladylike!"

I don't think it rendered the country genderless. On the contrary, I see many men who are men, and women who are women, with respect and affection for the other gender. Yes, I see rudeness and bashing (please note the blonde joke thread; there are no blonde men there), but I also see growth and change, and a beginning understanding.

Feminism won't be history until there is true equality and respect between the genders -- no rudeness, no bashing, no entitlements, no protections. If people want to jump on the male bashers, be my guest. Hell, I'll join you.

However, don't think that women have equal rights under the law, here or abroad. And don't presume to tell me that they do.

This is absolutely my last post on the subject, because I'm getting angrier and angrier, and will probably curdle.

 

[Never]

'Nuff said!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Would post more but what could you add to that?*

 

[Whispersecret]

It’s never right to bash anyone, for gender, sexual orientation, religious preference, race -- you name it, it's wrong.

I completely agree. After re-reading my post I could see that it could be interpreted to mean that I thought male-bashing was all right and that all my friends sent me jokes because I love it. I didn’t mean to imply that I condone the male bashing at all. I don’t. I delete those emails as soon as I realize what they are. I was just observing that society accepts it.

When I hear people put the feminist movement in the history books ("it brought us some good things"), I could scream…It brought us necessary things, ladies and gentlemen. It brought us our own credit, opportunities for jobs and education, opened closed-shop trades to women.

There was a time, not so long past, when a woman raped by her husband couldn't charge him. Date rape was once not regarded as a crime. A woman's entire sexual history was fair game in a rape investigation and trial.

It cracked the door on women's sports, providing equal money and access to girls' sports programs. Women's accomplishments are still largely left out of history books.

Do I need to mention access to birth control and Roe v. Wade, both of which are constantly under attack?

Yikes. So I understated what we’ve gained. Please climb off my chest.

Also, I was born in ’62. I was a child when people were burning bras and by the time I was old enough to read history books, the results of the movement weren’t old enough to have made it in to the texts. So I don’t have much personal experience with being discriminated against because of my sex. The only real thing I can think of is that I used to only be able to wear pants to grade school on Annual Pants Day. I was thrilled when they abolished the rule against pants for girls at school.

Like Laurel, I can’t recall being prevented from doing anything I wanted because of my sex, and if that is because of anything you personally did, CreamyLady, I sincerely thank you.

However, don't think that women have equal rights under the law, here or abroad. And don't presume to tell me that they do.

I didn’t! Have another margarita! Make it a double!

I’m curious to know what you think about women being admitted into The Citadel or being firefighters, where the physical demands of the job are arguably more suited to the average male physique than to the average woman’s.

 

[DeLaine]

This thread reminds me of one on another board I was on. The topic was "non-sexist child rearing" and I got flamed like you wouldn't believe because I said that girls and boys were different from birth.

There were women on that board who refused to buy their daughters Barbies or their little boys trucks because those were "sexist" toys. Some went even further and wouldn't allow their daughters to wear pink clothing or dresses.

Well, I'm telling you right now, as a mother of two boys and one girl, the genders have inborn differences. This isn't to say that the two genders shouldn't be guaranteed equal treatment under the law, just that we do ourselves a disservice when we pretend that we are all the same. The sexes are meant to complement one another, and when we're all encouraged to be who we really are, we do so beautifully.

And personally, I love it when someone holds a door for me, male or female. Anyone who has a problem with someone showing simple courtesy needs to drink a few margaritas and lighten up!

Delaine, sipping the frosty margarita she brought home from Chili's....ahhhh...

 

[CreamyLady]

Holding an ice cap to her head . . .

I'm so sorry I was shouting last night. Really.

WhisperSecret, I didn't think you condoned male bashing. That wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that true feminists don't condone male bashing -- only the "femi-nazis" and they are a sadly vocal minority.

(swallows two ibuprofen tablets, sips water, and continues.)

As for The Citadel and firefighting, well, women had been admitted to West Point and other service academies for years before they were admitted to The Citadel. If they can't perform, they leave. Biological differences aside -- given, men are physically stronger than women -- some women are very strong indeed and have no difficulty in performing their jobs.

What I'm trying to say is that it shouldn't be gender alone that determines who does the job; it is ability. A blanket assumption that women can't serve in the military or fight fires because they are women is wrong. Some women can -- and we shouldn't deny them the opportunity.

I loved designing clothes for my Barbie; my daughter still has Barbies. She's 23, majoring in political science and is focusing on a legal career.

When Sandra Day O'Connor left law school, she was offered a job as a legal secretary at one of the largest firms in Los Angeles. Thanks to feminism, neither my daughter nor any other woman will have to deal with that kind of job offer.
That is what I'm trying to point out -- ability to do the job is the criteria, not gender.

I think I'm going to go get some strong black coffee and lie down. Thank you.

 

[Gingersnap]

Being in the medical world please don't think we don't have far to go. Until three years ago any medications used for woman were tested exclusively on men. Studies by female physicians showed them to not be effective in some cases and indeed could be harmful. Just within the last two years in the DC area they were doing mastectomies on a outpatient basis. I was horrified when I heard that and upon further investigation well just know that it wasn't a woman who decided this was a good idea. The risk invovled is such that a woman could bleed to death before 911 even got the call let alone arrived to help. This practice was stopped when a shrill voiced female congresswoman brought it up and lobbied against this primitive practice. Women have been ignored when they are suffering a heart attack because their pain is not always substernal but epigastric. Believe me when I say a GI cocktail does not help occluded coronary arteries. We have extensive testing and studies to do before we can offer women responsible treatment for their illness. I saw a woman committed to a pysch ward for borderline personality. She was suffering from hyperthyroidism. Another woman was treated by her INTERNAL MEDICINE DOCTOR for "nerves" she was also a victim of thyroid disease. They are routinely undermedicated and dismissed as hysterical. One woman post op hysterectomy was patted on the head as anxious and sent home. She returned in less then one hour DOA from the huge embolism in her heart that was causing anoxia and hence her "anixiety". I have had to demand and fight with physicians to premedicate women for procedures tests and mnor surgery. I have filed complaints and been shunned as a consequence. THese docs would never dare to do to a male what is routinely done to women. I agree with Creamy Lady, standing there keeping my mouth shut and taking the easy road is not going to stop this so we all make our choices and pick our fights. I have picked mine and it is an end to this type of sexism. Sorry but seeing people in needless pain and dying always gets me ranting. So you can call me a feminist or you can call me full of shit what you can't call me is indifferent.

Climbing down from the soapbox and putting on my plastic rain coat. I love you all really......






[Edited by Gingersnap on 07-15-2000 at 08:47 AM]

 

[RonG]

A soapbox has to be more comfortable than high heels!

Being of the male persuasion (actually, no persuasion involved, it just sort of happened), I actually appreciate the efforts of people who speak up instead of just acquiescing to knucklehead ideas. I coach youth sports and my favorite saying from that is "Coach the athlete, not the gender." I take that same attitude to work and I have never had any problems - I have always had a mixed staff of people working with me and that has been fine.

My big gripe is with quasi-government types who still break the law and when the lawsuit comes, bail out and force the rest of us taxpayers to pay for their stupidity. I am thinking of examples like the Department of Agriculture discriminating against minority farmers (blacks and women) and state police jobs where they don't obey their own hiring and promotion laws. The best thing about the progress over the last thirty years is that the institutional discrimination is reduced but it may be forever before individual morons get their heads handed to them.