Feminism and BDSM...

[O'Mac]

...So I've had to go through this whole explanation recently with someone who is curious but a little minsunderstanding of the BDSM lifestyle. They were under the assumption that because I enjoy the and practise the sexual lifestyle as a male Dominant to a female submissive, that I therefore have a generalyl male chuvanistic attitudes towards all women. After tinking about it for a while, I countered that my role in a BDSM relationship and my general attititudes towards everyday male/female interaction had little to do with each other.

You see, if anything I'm a feminist. I'm all for gender equality in our world, and while I'm no supporter of activists such as Sheila Jeffreys and the like, I do support women's solidarity and much of the feminist movement. And in terms of the lifestyle, I find women Dominants just as valid as male Dominants, and the same applied to submissives of both genders as well.

Similar feelings on this board? I don't think I'm alone with this opinion, though I have heard many misogynistic sentiments from male Doms outside the online culture.

 

[Marquis]

You're coming along beautifully O'Mac.

Pretty soon you'll be able to look a feisty young lady in the eye and tell her that you support even radical feminism with a straight face. You can explain how this doesn't contradict your lifestyle over dinner and enlighten her to the pleasures and empowerment of oral servitude for dessert.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Will be following this thread closely. And probably posting some thoughts when I get them organized in my head.


And Marquis, if I were more domly, I'd smack you in the back of the head.

 

[CutieMouse]

And Marquis, if I were more domly, I'd smack you in the back of the head.

Allow me, M'Dear.

*thwaps Marquis upside the head for being such a smart ass*

For the record, I feel the feminist moment started out with good intentions, but got a bit out of control, and really screwed women over. I feel no need to be "equal" to a man. I will never be a man's "equal"; however my differences make me no less of a successful or worthy person.

From a BDSM standpoint, I think the feminist movement makes it difficult from both PYL/pyl sides of the coin- from an expected societal behaviour standpoint.

BTW- I'm not sure I made any sense just now... fighting insomnia and stressy crap at the moment... I'll probably be back in the thread at some point.

 

[O'Mac]

You're coming along beautifully O'Mac.

Pretty soon you'll be able to look a feisty young lady in the eye and tell her that you support even radical feminism with a straight face. You can explain how this doesn't contradict your lifestyle over dinner and enlighten her to the pleasures and empowerment of oral servitude for dessert.

Again, as I mentioned, I certainly don't support the radical agendas of the extremist's, but call me crazy, I certainly don't have any problems with women wanting to live more independent lives and more involved in more social issues. Big deal, I beat my sub's ass red with a whip nightly. That doesn't mean I think they don't deserve to vote, run for political office, or have final say on matters concerning their own body.

I don't think increasing the rights and allowing fair treatment of women somehow descreases the role of men. In fact, it sounds somewhat insecure of someone to think otherwise, in my opinion.

 

[YANKEE DAN]

I like it when I tell a feminist I love BDSM porn. Then they go off about how this shows women as sex objects to be used and I say "Oh, well I prefer femdom myself, watching men be used and abused, NOW THATS HOT!"

Then they just look at me like I'm a lesser being, and it is wonderful to watch hypocrisy in action.

 

[O'Mac]

I like it when I tell a feminist I love BDSM porn. Then they go off about how this shows women as sex objects to be used and I say "Oh, well I prefer femdom myself, watching men be used and abused, NOW THATS HOT!"

Then they just look at me like I'm a lesser being, and it is wonderful to watch hypocrisy in action.

Hypocrisy is always amusing, especially when people can't see it for themselves.

 

[chris9]

I had written quite something, but couldn't get to the point I was trying to say. I'll return later, because it's a topic I had issues with, that interests me. I'm just unable to voice my thoughts at present.

 

[RJMasters]

...So I've had to go through this whole explanation recently with someone who is curious but a little minsunderstanding of the BDSM lifestyle. They were under the assumption that because I enjoy the and practise the sexual lifestyle as a male Dominant to a female submissive, that I therefore have a generalyl male chuvanistic attitudes towards all women. After tinking about it for a while, I countered that my role in a BDSM relationship and my general attititudes towards everyday male/female interaction had little to do with each other.

You see, if anything I'm a feminist. I'm all for gender equality in our world, and while I'm no supporter of activists such as Sheila Jeffreys and the like, I do support women's solidarity and much of the feminist movement. And in terms of the lifestyle, I find women Dominants just as valid as male Dominants, and the same applied to submissives of both genders as well.

Similar feelings on this board? I don't think I'm alone with this opinion, though I have heard many misogynistic sentiments from male Doms outside the online culture.

Actually I found that after I allowed my Dominant traits to surface and be expressed, I loss many of my chuvanistic attitudes. Through my own experiences I was able to better relate to those women who expressed their own dominance, and it also allowed me to have a deeper appreciation for those women who could express submission with confidence.

I think the biggest cause behind chuvanism is a lack of confidence which creates resentment and anger. IMO its only when a man finds his own confidence that he is able to stop blaming his shortcomings on others.

Female chuvanism sucks just as bad as male chuvanism. A woman or a man who is comfortable in their own skin and who they are as a person has no need of chuvanisic attitudes. Men who are confident in themselves do not feel compelled to "get in touch" with their feminine side, and women who are comfortable with who they are see no need to be more masculine.

From a dominant perspective, I see expressing dominance by exerting one's will. Thus dominance is neither "exclusively" masculine or feminine.....The idea that dominance stems from masculinity is a sterotype that society has ingrained by association....the truth is a woman can be incredibly sexy and powerful when she exercises her feminine will. I believe a man can be sexy and incredibly powerful when he exercises his masculine will. Yes there are differences because the expression of dominance conforms to the gender but it makes nether a masculine or feminine dominance better or worse or less equal.

My answer to this person would have been as follows...

"No, my being dominant is more about me being confident in who I am. I don't need to lessen the dignity of any other person in order to do that. I find that many women respond to and enjoy the company of a man who is confident in themselves. I do prefer these types of women from a relationship point of view as I tend to respond equally to them and enjoy their company. I do not see how any of that relates to women being unequal or me being superior. Since I have answered your question I would like to ask one of my own. Are you famillar with what "female chuvanism" is?"

 

[O'Mac]

I think the biggest cause behind chuvanism is a lack of confidence which creates resentment and anger. IMO its only when a man finds his own confidence that he is then stops blaming his shortcomings on others.

Female chuvanism sucks just as bad as male chuvanism. A woman or a man who is comfortable in their own skin and who they are as a person has no need of chuvanisic attitudes. Men who are confident in themselves do not feel compelled to "get in touch" with their feminine side, and women who are comfortable with who they are see no need to be more masculine.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Netzach]

Actually I'm pretty happy with myself and I felt a lot of curiosity about being more masculine and found that allowing myself to explore masculinity for myself was really a good thing. Likewise, I'm attracted to feminine men and I consider them perfectly "real."

 

[Netzach]

I've been passingly attracted (?) to two dominant guys in my life, both of whom were really in touch with the ironies and fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism. If a guy has the good sense to be a little teeny bit guilty he's ok by me.

I'm more than a little teeny bit guilty about how fucking great it feels to kick a buninessman in the nuts. It's all good.

 

[RJMasters]

I've been passingly attracted (?) to two dominant guys in my life, both of whom were really in touch with the ironies and fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism. If a guy has the good sense to be a little teeny bit guilty he's ok by me.

I'm more than a little teeny bit guilty about how fucking great it feels to kick a buninessman in the nuts. It's all good.

hmmmm I don't do ancestral guilt very well whether its about racisism or about the oppression of women. I have stopped allowing people to tell my place using guilt a long time ago. Nor do I feel the need to beat myself up over being either a man or being dominant. I guess that means I don't have any good sense.

I believe in "personal" responsibility. I do not feel compelled to bear the responsibility of the whole male race of its past, present or future(not even a little teeny bit).

 

[JMohegan]

I've been passingly attracted (?) to two dominant guys in my life, both of whom were really in touch with the ironies and fuckupedness of being a male Dom after feminism. If a guy has the good sense to be a little teeny bit guilty he's ok by me.

I have never felt guilty about being a dominant male.

Every single D/s partner whom I have ever had has been unhappy with society's expectations for her role in personal relationships "after feminism". I therefore see no logical or emotional basis for guilt, in this context.

I'm more than a little teeny bit guilty about how fucking great it feels to kick a buninessman in the nuts. It's all good.

Ah, yes. Guilt for being a sadist is something I definitely do understand. But I don't really see what that has to do with gender, or feminism.

When has it ever been true, that people were raised to believe it's ok to get off on causing pain to another human being?

 

[SpectreT]

hmmmm I don't do ancestral guilt very well whether its about racisism or about the oppression of women. I have stopped allowing people to tell my place using guilt a long time ago. Nor do I feel the need to beat myself up over being either a man or being dominant. I guess that means I don't have any good sense.

I believe in "personal" responsibility. I do not feel compelled to bear the responsibility of the whole male race of its past, present or future(not even a little teeny bit).

Seconded.

O'Mac's original post gets a seconding from me, too.

 

[O'Mac]

I'm an idiot, Marq. I kinda thought you might have misunderstood my first post and tried to re-assert my words in the second one. But I gotcha now! This old brain just needs a jumpstart now and then.

Oh, and excellent points, RJ!

 

[PatPowers]

I think power exchange relationships are very subversive -- in a good way -- and quite naturally might lead a man away from chauvinism. After all, it is the subs who give power to doms in a dom/sub relationship ... and that which has been given may be taken away, in any consensual relationship. Any dom who is worth his salt understands this. And when you understand that it is the sub who essentially enables your mastery by giving you power over her, just as you enable her submission by using that power wisely and well, you tend to realize that power exchange is actually a cycling of power. Tends to melt away the sexism bullshit after awhile, unless you've internalized the sexism into your sex play and don't realize it. In which case ... lotsa luck, there, you're gonna need it!

 

[cfuhrer]

I think power exchange relationships are very subversive -- in a good way -- and quite naturally might lead a man away from chauvinism. After all, it is the subs who give power to doms in a dom/sub relationship ... and that which has been given may be taken away, in any consensual relationship. Any dom who is worth his salt understands this. And when you understand that it is the sub who essentially enables your mastery by giving you power over her, just as you enable her submission by using that power wisely and well, you tend to realize that power exchange is actually a cycling of power. Tends to melt away the sexism bullshit after awhile, unless you've internalized the sexism into your sex play and don't realize it. In which case ... lotsa luck, there, you're gonna need it!

I am compelled to agree.

 

[Marquis]

Similar threads

Feminism and being a submissive

Feminism and BDSM

Feminism and Submission

 

[O'Mac]

Yeah, I figured there would likely be a shite-load of threads already discussed about this topic. Just wanted to stir things up a bit.

Good threads though. Thanks for the links

 

[Marquis]

There's so much I want to say, but I don't even know where to begin, and I'm not sure I have the energy.

Netzach seems to have expressed my feelings more concisely than I can, so for now I'll just say that I agree with everything she has said here and leave it at that.

 

[Marquis]

Fuck it, I can't help it

If you can't see the blatant androcentrism and oppression of women in society, you are blind.

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. No one wants to accept the debt of their ancestors but we all feel entitled to our inheritance.

As human beings, we're all pretty much self interested and will do whatever we can get away with. We're all in the rat race and we all play "the game." It is the very least we can do to be honest about that.

 

[O'Mac]

If you can't see the blatant androcentrism and oppression of women in society, you are blind.

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. No one wants to accept the debt of their ancestors but we all feel entitled to our inheritance.

As human beings, we're all pretty much self interested and will do whatever we can get away with. We're all in the rat race and we all play "the game." It is the very least we can do to be honest about that.

There is blatant oppression of women, that's true. And nobody has to travel for very far to witness it either, in my opinion. In our "modern" western society women still often get paid less then men for doing the same job. We look at the news and see how some women are treated in places like Afganistan or central Africa and we say to ourselves "it's terrible how the women are treated as second-class citizens" but I think there are likely just as many people on our side of the ocean who share the same point of view. I certainly don't feel like I have to apologize for the way things were before I was around, but I can easily acknowledge how much worst off the general treatment of women was in the past.

 

[ammre]

i've stated my opinions on this topic before. When you work in a women's center, and you're very open about your sexual leanings, you have to have the thought process to back it up. No, i'm not reversing the feminist movement becasue i like it when a man is dominating me. (i'm down with femdoms too but for discussion sake, clearly i'm focsing on men)I'm allowed to "take it" however i want when it comes to my sexual practices. Just so long as in the work place, classroom, and such i don't "take it".

and besides, what fun is it to have someone who is sociatally opressed and already forced to be submissive, submit to you.. it's much more fun if a woman who has worked hard to stand on even ground chooses to submit and it makes that person they submit to feel all that much more special.

A quick comment about being man's "equal". I don't know how equal to anyone else on earth i really am. Our values to this planet and species vary a lot due to so many factors, schooling, jobs, expierence. We should be judging our equality on those factors and not our genital alignments.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think I differ from cutie mouse in that as a feminist (and I feel they have not gone far enough, but they are smart enough to choose their battles carefully and thoughtfully with a long term vision in place) I do want women to be seen to be equal to men. That means equal pay for the same job, equal rights to pursue their own destiny, equal opportunity to promotion and career choices, equal right to choose whether to be promiscuous or not, marry or not, have children or not, equal right to vote and have my rights respected, and definately to have medical research around female physical issues to be conducted on women not men as I really don't see the sense in testing on men if it is for use on or in a female body. What I do is choose to place myself in a personal unequal position (far different from having that choice taken away from you) with a man who has never felt women were in any way inferior or should be unequal to men.

As to areas like prostitution and pornograghy which a certain faction of the feminist movement choose to see as oppressive and exploitive of women (only some feel this way, there are other factions who support it), IMHO is a narrow and very subjective view. I studied under a hardcore radical feminist who I had and still have great admiration for, and who required a final paper to set our final marks which would challenge her. Most of the class pulled out the usual argumants which reallly did little to challenge her, I pulled out this card and the right of women to choose it as a career and still be feminisit. We had to submit a shoirt paper to outline what we were going to write on and she did ask me if I wanted to keep my top of the class position....LOL, I said I didn't fear losing it and I was right. Along with other angles I argued a woman's choice to use her body for profit pointing out not many people objected to anyone using their body for profit via modelling or acting, nor saw it as any reason to feel those who chose those careers were being exploited because they were paid for the use of their bodies in those professions. I also highlighted that a reason to push these women to not profit in these professions was because men resented having to pay for the woman's service, for using her body, and so it was to their advantage to discredit the woman, to protect the male client, and that was the real exploitation...expecting a woman to give them the use of their bodies for nothing in return but a bad reputation or worse.

It was a lot more involved than that being a 10,000 word paper, but the arguments I presented, backed up by real evidence, as she said made her think in a new way where she found herself questioning why she felt the weay she did if a woman mad3e that choice free from any other coercion or force or manipulation. I was pleased I retained my top of the class perfect mark, but more so that she saw legitimacy in my argument of a situation she previously could not contemplate feeling anything positive or pro-feminist about.

It is worth noting that without feminism, most women here would not have the right to be who they are as either Domme or submissive and expect respect or happiness in return. In fact, any woman who admitted sexual desire would be ostracized and cast out of most of society, lose her children, lose her freedom. I think too many who have been born with these rights fail to realise what their ancestors lived with and what a shit life they lead but chose to fight back for the sake of contemporary womanhood.

Catalina