Female archetypes (sluts, skanks, strong women etc)

[Stella_Omega]

Instead of bringing the "double standard" thread back up, I thought I'd start a new one on the same topic-- specifically as it relates to characters we write or read.

I'd like to quote from a livejournal (where we are still kicking around the whole concept of sexually aggressive female characters probably forever) writer, known as teenybuffalo. This whole post is worth readiing but I've plucked out one sentence;

There's a specific kind of guy I like to write and read fic about, and I like him whenever he turns up in original books or stories--Wicked But Basically Likable Sidekick, whose wants are simple and understandable and usually boil down to food, drink, sex, and lots of money....

Now read the same phrase this way;

...Basically Likable Woman, whose wants are simple and understandable and usually boil down to food, drink, sex, and lots of money...

Hmm. Does that sound like any particular female archetype?

Actually, it doesn't, not to me. Women aren't supposed to have simple and understandable wants, just for starters.

But Flavortang's skanky Hailey Jordan might be-- with just a few strokes of the pen-- just that sort of person. Teenybuffalo goes on to explore the idea of that kind of character being female, and came up with one; Nanny Ogg of the Discworld-- who is never portrayed as actually having sex, although she's definitely had a lot-- huge family. And it strikes me as interesting that she can be this character, because she's an old lady.

Any thoughts?

 

[flavortang]

Instead of bringing the "double standard" thread back up, I thought I'd start a new one on the same topic-- specifically as it relates to characters we write or read.

I'd like to quote from a livejournal (where we are still kicking around the whole concept of sexually aggressive female characters probably forever) writer, known as teenybuffalo. This whole post is worth readiing but I've plucked out one sentence;


Now read the same phrase this way;

...Basically Likable Woman, whose wants are simple and understandable and usually boil down to food, drink, sex, and lots of money...

Hmm. Does that sound like any particular female archetype?

Actually, it doesn't, not to me. Women aren't supposed to have simple and understandable wants, just for starters.

But Flavortang's skanky Hailey Jordan might be-- with just a few strokes of the pen-- just that sort of person. Teenybuffalo goes on to explore the idea of that kind of character being female, and came up with one; Nanny Ogg of the Discworld-- who is never portrayed as actually having sex, although she's definitely had a lot-- huge family. And it strikes me as interesting that she can be this character, because she's an old lady.

Any thoughts?

Yeah, that 'basic likeable woman' seems like pretty much any woman in any age group of any race or from any time period. Super vague. My Hailey character is a nympho-maniac, so she fucks to satiate a mental and physical need, like a drug. I was going to put a slant on the story to where she fucks guys and gets 'hand-outs' in the form of money that she's saving to pay for her mother's surgery or something lame, but I said "To hell with that!", just let her be one of those free-wheeling, liberated girls who are just whirlwinds, living life one second at a time.

Archetypes should be a little more precise than the one from the livejournal you quoted.

 

[FatDino]

just let her be one of those free-wheeling, liberated girls who are just whirlwinds, living life one second at a time.

You mean "free-willing?" And how do being a "a nympho-maniac," and "fucking to satiate a mental and physical need, like a drug" make a woman "free-willed" and "liberated?"

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah, that 'basic likeable woman' seems like pretty much any woman in any age group of any race or from any time period. Super vague. My Hailey character is a nympho-maniac, so she fucks to satiate a mental and physical need, like a drug. I was going to put a slant on the story to where she fucks guys and gets 'hand-outs' in the form of money that she's saving to pay for her mother's surgery or something lame, but I said "To hell with that!", just let her be one of those free-wheeling, liberated girls who are just whirlwinds, living life one second at a time.

Archetypes should be a little more precise than the one from the livejournal you quoted.

I disagree, Flavortang. Women aren't supposed to have "simple needs" and they're not supposed to be "understandable", and they are not supposed to enjoy food and drink (watch that weight girls)!

Teenybuffalo goes on to say (since you don't want to click on the link, right? )

Anyhow, female leads are often too powerful for me to want to step into their shoes. If I was a character in a fantasy/historical/SFnal/take-your-pick movie/book/TV show, I wouldn't be the warrior chick or the beautiful princess or the haughty witch. I would be one of the grubby sidekicks with bad teeth who get to eat and drink and tell dorky jokes on the sidelines. Or maybe I'd be a deeply conflicted evil henchman who enjoys killing off redshirts but then feels that he's not doing what he wants to do with his life and weeps into his beer about it.

"So why can't such characters be female?" you might ask. And you'd have a good point, imaginary interlocutor. There's no real reason why not--except that when they do exist, they're usually also whores or exploited in some deeply painful manner, and that stops being fun right away. Minor female=powerless female=torture victim, in a lot of writers' heads. I know this is a problem with history, not just with fiction, but still... I don't want to read rape stories. Then, too, if your Cheerfully Naughty Minor Baddies With Lovable Flaws are female, they usually get killed off in the end. Because we-as-a-collective-audience seem able to understand male characters as mildly naughty but basically lovable, yet if they're female we can't tolerate similar faults.

More funny, interestingly flawed, working-class, hedonistic female characters! That's what I want! Nanny Ogg is a lot like what I want here, but there's only one of her and we need a wide spectrum of such girls, of all ages and genres.

 

[Eluard]

Instead of bringing the "double standard" thread back up, I thought I'd start a new one on the same topic-- specifically as it relates to characters we write or read.

I'd like to quote from a livejournal (where we are still kicking around the whole concept of sexually aggressive female characters probably forever) writer, known as teenybuffalo. This whole post is worth readiing but I've plucked out one sentence;


Now read the same phrase this way;

...Basically Likable Woman, whose wants are simple and understandable and usually boil down to food, drink, sex, and lots of money...

Hmm. Does that sound like any particular female archetype?

Actually, it doesn't, not to me. Women aren't supposed to have simple and understandable wants, just for starters.

But Flavortang's skanky Hailey Jordan might be-- with just a few strokes of the pen-- just that sort of person. Teenybuffalo goes on to explore the idea of that kind of character being female, and came up with one; Nanny Ogg of the Discworld-- who is never portrayed as actually having sex, although she's definitely had a lot-- huge family. And it strikes me as interesting that she can be this character, because she's an old lady.

Any thoughts?

Hmmm could you enlarge on the slut/ skank distinction. It's a bit lost on we poor colonials.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You mean "free-willing?" And how do being a "a nympho-maniac," and "fucking to satiate a mental and physical need, like a drug" make a woman "free-willed" and "liberated?"

Well, I wasn't going to get into Hailey's persona in this particular thread, but...

Yeah.

See, Flavortang, everybody fucks to satiate a physical and mental need, that's exactly what fucking is about! The term "Nympho-maniac" is generally agreed to be incorrect and a non-existent malady; can't she just be a free-wheeling, liberated girl who likes sex a whole lot-- more than any woman these guys have yet encountered?

 

[flavortang]

Well, I wasn't going to get into Hailey's persona in this particular thread, but...

Yeah.

See, Flavortang, everybody fucks to satiate a physical and mental need, that's exactly what fucking is about! The term "Nympho-maniac" is generally agreed to be incorrect and a non-existent malady; can't she just be a free-wheeling, liberated girl who likes sex a whole lot-- more than any woman these guys have yet encountered?

I have no idea what you just said, but it did peak my interest.

She's actually exactly like that. But, basically go back to what I initially said and read it again. I'm not changing my stance. lol

 

[Stella_Omega]

I have no idea what you just said, but it did peak my interest.

She's actually exactly like that. But, basically go back to what I initially said and read it again. I'm not changing my stance. lol

No, that's fine!

I guess it's just the "Skank" appellation-- usually means someone utterly disgusting, like a deseased crack whore, doesn't it? Or has the meaning changed?

Because, really, I want to talk about happy, healthy, greedy sexual female characters in this thread-- if there are any already out there, and who has ideas for creating them.

I got a lesson in plotting from the magnificent 3113, and she put the seeds in my head for a couple of female characters for a pirate epic-- I want the main female character to be like this.

 

[flavortang]

No, that's fine!

I guess it's just the "Skank" appellation-- usually means someone utterly disgusting, like a deseased crack whore, doesn't it? Or has the meaning changed?

Because, really, I want to talk about happy, healthy, greedy sexual female characters in this thread-- if there are any already out there, and who has ideas for creating them.

I got a lesson in plotting from the magnificent 3113, and she put the seeds in my head for a couple of female characters for a pirate epic-- I want the main female character to be like this.

I don't know. I think a "skank" differs from place to place. I personally imagine a "skank" being a girl that superficially appears normal, she could even come from an affluent, upper-class family. It's her inner mind-set which defines her as a skank. Someone whose motivations are sexually reckless and dangerous. Kind of a 'whore behind closed doors'. I suppose there's different levels of skankdom. lol

For Hailey, she's just a free-wheeling teenager with no parental guidance who has a very shallow, narrow-minded view of the world: take as much from the world as you can with no regard for others' emotions. So, she fucks to please herself with no emotional connections to her partners, accepts gifts and money and moves on to the next willing partner. And she has no remorse for debasing and degrading herself because she enjoys what should repulse her. I guess that's a type of skank?

 

[Eluard]

No, that's fine!

I guess it's just the "Skank" appellation-- usually means someone utterly disgusting, like a deseased crack whore, doesn't it? Or has the meaning changed?

Because, really, I want to talk about happy, healthy, greedy sexual female characters in this thread-- if there are any already out there, and who has ideas for creating them.

I got a lesson in plotting from the magnificent 3113, and she put the seeds in my head for a couple of female characters for a pirate epic-- I want the main female character to be like this.

I once knew a girl who was just like this: she loved to pick up men and fuck them, it was all she wanted to do. She was incredibly sexually aggressive — more than any man I've ever seen. She had a boyfriend who turned a blind eye. She was also one of the most beautiful girls I've ever laid my eyes on. It I want to think of the quintessence of beauty I think of her. Her name was Catherine.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't know. I think a "skank" differs from place to place. I personally imagine a "skank" being a girl that superficially appears normal, she could even come from an affluent, upper-class family. It's her inner mind-set which defines her as a skank. Someone whose motivations are sexually reckless and dangerous. Kind of a 'whore behind closed doors'. I suppose there's different levels of skankdom. lol

I can't imagine motivations being reckless and dangerous, but actions might very well be, especially these days.

For Hailey, she's just a free-wheeling teenager with no parental guidance who has a very shallow, narrow-minded view of the world: take as much from the world as you can with no regard for others' emotions. So, she fucks to please herself with no emotional connections to her partners, accepts gifts and money and moves on to the next willing partner. And she has no remorse for debasing and degrading herself because she enjoys what should repulse her. I guess that's a type of skank?

That seems... freewheeling and -- really truly liberated, as in liberated from society's expectations of her.

What is she doing that debases and degrades her?

 

[Eluard]

I guess I'm on "ignore" here so I'll bow out.

 

[flavortang]

I can't imagine motivations being reckless and dangerous, but actions might very well be, especially these days.

That seems... freewheeling and -- really truly liberated, as in liberated from society's expectations of her.

What is she doing that debases and degrades her?

I think someone's sexual motivations can be dangerous, if part of the sexual satisfaction comes with knowing that what you're doing is risky, immoral and against everything you may have been raised to do.

The things Hailey does doesn't necessarily debase her, but it should, is the point. I'm going to have the character doing things no one in their right mind would normally do, like fuck homeless guys on a whim, jump in a car with a bunch of druggies and pull a train on them. Sick shit that no girl who's had a decent upbringing and who is without a neurological disorder would do.

I remember seeing this program called Intervention and there was a young girl that was the focus of it. She was 19, a stripper, lived in a house her dad gave her, she turned it into a shithole, hit up guys on the street for money to buy booze, even possibly had sex with some of them for change, crazy shit like that. I think that's the type of 'free-wheeling attitude' I was envisioning. Someone who acts beyond the borders of normal human behavior just to satiate primal, but not urgently essential urges. I know all women crave sex to a degree, but I'm thinking of someone with EXTREME desires.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I guess I'm on "ignore" here so I'll bow out.

Well, my answer would include personal recollections... I would say that i was just the same way, in my teens, although not the epitome of beauty!


please come back, Eluard, please!

How did you see her, back then-- as a slut, or was it just the way she was-- like someone good at basketball?

Would you make this girl you remember the main character in a story? How would you treat her character, and what kind of plot would you build around her?

 

[flavortang]

Well, my answer would include personal recollections... I would say that i was just the same way, in my teens, although not the epitome of beauty!


please come back, Eluard, please!

How did you see her, back then-- as a slut, or was it just the way she was-- like someone good at basketball?

Would you make this girl you remember the main character in a story? How would you treat her character, and what kind of plot would you build around her?

No one tells me to come back... lol

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think someone's sexual motivations can be dangerous, if part of the sexual satisfaction comes with knowing that what you're doing is risky, immoral and against everything you may have been raised to do.

The things Hailey does doesn't necessarily debase her, but it should, is the point. I'm going to have the character doing things no one in their right mind would normally do, like fuck homeless guys on a whim, jump in a car with a bunch of druggies and pull a train on them. Sick shit that no girl who's had a decent upbringing and who is without a neurological disorder would do.

I remember seeing this program called Intervention and there was a young girl that was the focus of it. She was 19, a stripper, lived in a house her dad gave her, she turned it into a shithole, hit up guys on the street for money to buy booze, even possibly had sex with some of them for change, crazy shit like that. I think that's the type of 'free-wheeling attitude' I was envisioning. Someone who acts beyond the borders of normal human behavior just to satiate primal, but not urgently essential urges. I know all women crave sex to a degree, but I'm thinking of someone with EXTREME desires.

That is probably as far opposite my definition of "Freewheeling" as I've ever heard of... In other words, she's compulsive.

Definitely NOT the kind of female character I'm talking about!

 

[flavortang]

That is probably as far opposite my definition of "Freewheeling" as I've ever heard of... In other words, she's compulsive.

Definitely NOT the kind of female character I'm talking about!

Okay, she's compulsive then. lol But at least you understand the type of skank character I'm imagining. I guess by free-wheeling, I mean that she genuinely enjoys being a skank. She's not someone who wants to live a 'better' life. She thinks she's on top of the world, even though she's basically a fuck-toy.

 

[R. Richard]

I once knew a girl who was just like this: she loved to pick up men and fuck them, it was all she wanted to do. She was incredibly sexually aggressive — more than any man I've ever seen. She had a boyfriend who turned a blind eye. She was also one of the most beautiful girls I've ever laid my eyes on. It I want to think of the quintessence of beauty I think of her. Her name was Catherine.

I also knew a girl like that, in fact I dated her. She was indeed movie star beautiful [when I would walk into place with her, heads would literally turn.] She had a boyfriend who had no choice but to turn a blind eye, since the ass hole couldn't support himself and had to leech off the wild girl in order to support himself. In return he would supply cock on nights when she couldn't score. She lived in her dream/nightmare world for a while. One day she realized that she was regarded a a free whore by the people of the town and she decided to hook some sucker and get financial support for the rest of her life. Since I was one of the few single guys she knew who had a job wall above the minimum wage level, she tried to hook me. However, I had used my association with her to find hot babes who wanted to find out why an average looking guy like me was with starlet girl. Thus I had girls nearly as hot as Whorla was, without the free whore stigma.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Okay, she's compulsive then. lol But at least you understand the type of skank character I'm imagining. I guess by free-wheeling, I mean that she genuinely enjoys being a skank. She's not someone who wants to live a 'better' life. She thinks she's on top of the world, even though she's basically a fuck-toy.

Well, if you asked her, she'd tell you that you were her fuck-toy.

It's all a matter of perspective...

 

[flavortang]

Well, if you asked her, she'd tell you that you were her fuck-toy.

It's all a matter of perspective...

EXACTLY! The guys she fucks probably think they're impossibly lucky, but what they don't know is that they're providing as much a service to her as she is to them. To me, that's pretty skanky, no? That could be a skank sub-archetype. lol

 

[Stella_Omega]

I also knew a girl like that, in fact I dated her. She was indeed movie star beautiful [when I would walk into place with her, heads would literally turn.] She had a boyfriend who had no choice but to turn a blind eye, since the ass hole couldn't support himself and had to leech off the wild girl in order to support himself. In return he would supply cock on nights when she couldn't score. She lived in her dream/nightmare world for a while. One day she realized that she was regarded a a free whore by the people of the town and she decided to hook some sucker and get financial support for the rest of her life. Since I was one of the few single guys she knew who had a job wall above the minimum wage level, she tried to hook me. However, I had used my association with her to find hot babes who wanted to find out why an average looking guy like me was with starlet girl. Thus I had girls nearly as hot as Whorla was, without the free whore stigma.

So you used her proximity to get laid, and called her a whore.

Double standards, get em here, get 'em right here!

 

[Stella_Omega]

EXACTLY! The guys she fucks probably think they're impossibly lucky, but what they don't know is that they're providing as much a service to her as she is to them. To me, that's pretty skanky, no? That could be a skank sub-archetype. lol

I know you're dealing the girl all the lowest cards in the deck, by handing her over to homeless bums and druggies. (Instead of making her intelligent, clever, and giving her intellectual poets and hunky jocks to screw, for instance)

HOWEVER! Why do you consider her aggressiveness-- in itself-- skank behavior?
Read what you just wrote; BECAUSE she is getting what SHE wants from these guys-- she's a skank. If she were only giving them what they want-- presumably without enjoying herself quite so much-- would that be less skanky in your eyes?

 

[flavortang]

I know you're dealing the girl all the lowest cards in the deck, by handing her over to homeless bums and druggies. (Instead of making her intelligent, clever, and giving her intellectual poets and hunky jocks to screw, for instance)

HOWEVER! Why do you consider her aggressiveness-- in itself-- skank behavior?
Read what you just wrote; BECAUSE she is getting what SHE wants from these guys-- she's a skank. If she were only giving them what they want-- presumably without enjoying herself quite so much-- would that be less skanky in your eyes?

You have to understand, the last two female lead characters I wrote were terribly innocent, virginal novices who were yearning for romantic love from the male characters who were romantic, sweet nice guys. I wanted to break free from that and venture to the other end of the human spectrum.

I don't so much consider her aggressiveness skanky, its her innate needs that motivate her aggressiveness. She has extremely low standards and has very little conscience. She'd fuck a married man in his bed while his wife slept catatonically next to them... and she will. But if she didn't gain anything from her escapades, it'd certainly be boring to write.

 

[Eluard]

Well, my answer would include personal recollections... I would say that i was just the same way, in my teens, although not the epitome of beauty!


please come back, Eluard, please!

How did you see her, back then-- as a slut, or was it just the way she was-- like someone good at basketball?

Would you make this girl you remember the main character in a story? How would you treat her character, and what kind of plot would you build around her?

OK I'll stop sulking and come back.

The girl I knew was a bit different from R. Richard's girl. Catherine was at the top University in the country, and so she was quite smart (not brilliant, you understand, by smart: a good B student). She was from a good family, very middle class, and her boyfriend was too. He was a very nice guy, and had the good looks of a male model. And I could never think of Catherine as a slut and certainly not a skank. She didn't wear make up, but she didn't need to — she simply radiated warmth and beauty. She was about 5 ft 2 and had large breasts and blond hair, below the shoulders. But nothing could convey how beautiful she was: no one in Hollywood today is as beautiful.

In many ways, Stella, I think she is exactly what you are looking for as a main character. There was nothing unhealthy about Catherine's desires, they were simply voracious. If she wanted a man, she would fix him with her blue eyes and lead him away. She didn't want approval, or things in return, and nothing about her was dysfunctional. She was a great free spirit.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You have to understand, the last two female lead characters I wrote were terribly innocent, virginal novices who were yearning for romantic love from the male characters who were romantic, sweet nice guys. I wanted to break free from that and venture to the other end of the human spectrum.

I don't so much consider her aggressiveness skanky, its her innate needs that motivate her aggressiveness. She has extremely low standards and has very little conscience. She'd fuck a married man in his bed while his wife slept catatonically next to them... and she will. But if she didn't gain anything from her escapades, it'd certainly be boring to write.

Well, that's all well and good-- the phrase I'm asking about, though, is the one I quoted.

In it, you seem to say that it's because she enjoys herself sexually-- because she takes what she wants from these guys-- that is skanky behaviour.

Although now that I re-read it, maybe you're saying that the service they provide her is their disgustingness?