Feedback wanted on "Cycling Weekends with Sis"

[8letters]

The story is here.

What I would really like is a recommendation on a book to read to help address my weaknesses.

Suggestions for improvement I received in comments:
* The scene change markers were misformatted. I have submitted an edit to correct
* "there are some odd turns of phrase" (what, I have no idea)
* "I would suggest you include more details on the sexual build-up and releases. You included enough to not rush it, but could have had more to increase the tension/release. Include details like if they tense up and how, if they curl their toes, throw their heads to the side and how it feels right before they orgasm. If you decide they aren't screaming banshees, include their moans and words/reactions right up to the orgasm and what happens then. Including those details can make the story even hotter. "
* "this was good but needs more background and character development, as is this should have been chapter two. there were a lot of extra unneeded words that a GOOD EDITOR would have caught and you should have caught IF you had proofread this properly...use a good editor and PROOFREAD."
* "I wouldn't mind seeing some more development like [an author] tends to do"
* "My only quibble is that the brother, as in your other stories, is so very patient, and good, that he almost seems more like the idea of a protagonist than a real one. A few quirks would be nice."
* "I would like to have read more of the feelings the siblings had as they allowed their love to develop and express itself." (this may be a request for the story to continue)

Kudos I received:
* "felt real"
* "It's full a details and makes a reader, like myself, feel like I'm right there watching the story unfold. "
* "liked how you let this plot develop, nice build-up, good characters, nice romantic, but hot story"
* "The slow pacing was perfect for me, and I liked the back story, which framed the relationship very nicely. The cycling theme was well done and I thought provided a good skeleton for your story."

 

[sr71plt]

I think you are being too intense with this story (and overselling it). It's had a very good run. You'll find your groove (assuming you haven't already found it) by writing and posting more stories. You got very good comments (and lots of them) and rating on this story. Just let it go and write the next one.

 

[PennLady]

One book? There are tons of books out there. Read them, in any genre, by any author. See how they construct their stories, their characters, their dialogue. There's no one book that will give you the key on any writing issues.

And for a start, if you agree with any of the comments you received, go from there. If you agree a character was weak, try to think how to strengthen it, etc.

You seem to have gotten enough comments that you should be able to sort through and see where you might want to change.

 

[Darkniciad]

I'm noticing some of your scene transitions aren't really necessary.

After giving the first pack a five-minute head start, the guy with the bullhorn sent us out.

* * * *

Patrick and Evan stayed with us until they were warmed up, then they took off.

You pass time with the sentence after the scene break, so there's no real need to set off the passing of time. The next one is much the same.

The third feels too abrupt.

I was disappointed. One of the reasons I had convinced her to come to this rally was to set her up with one of my friends.

* * * *

"What should I eat?" asked Julie.

I feel like you need a lead-out here. Maybe climbing back onto the bikes or something.

"Then we'll keep going."

* * * *

I was so proud of Julie when we crossed the finish line.

Same here. I would have mentioned "proud" at the end of the scene. His feelings would have been a much smoother transition than the line of dialogue, I think.

Reworking the beginning lines of the next scene could do it, too. I think it's "proud" starting the next scene that is giving me that abrupt feeling. Her line of dialogue followed by them rolling over the finish line would have worked.

Then you can bring back "proud".

"She loved a massage after a hard workout. She would moan and groan the whole time I worked her body. When I was done, she would be like 'Do whatever you want with me'." I smiled at the happy memories. "Oh, that was TMI."

Here's one place that may be triggering the character development comments. She doesn't react to this at all?

If she laughs it off, that says something about her. If she cringes and groans, it could be saying another.

As it is, you move straight into going out on the town. Having no reaction from her to that "TMI" feels really flat and strange to me.

I moved over to give her half of the bed. She slipped under the sheets and grabbed my hand. That felt awkward and wrong, but nice at the same time. We soon drifted off.

Here's another. You've got a spot here where he should be reacting a little more. He's already been looking at her in a sexual manner and somewhat considering how wrong it is.

( Really, I feel as if in those earlier scenes, either his mixed feelings should be stronger, or it should be a little less sexual, building more as the story goes on )

Then she's slipping into his bed and holding his hand, and I don't feel we get enough of a reaction. This is a pretty strong transition point to be left with just "awkward and wrong, but nice at the same time"

Have to head to bed, but those are some thoughts from the first page and a bit of the second.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

8letters, I think sr gave good advice. You've got great feedback and all you need to do is just write more and learn as you go.

I enjoyed your story.

 

[8letters]

Maybe I had unrealistic expectations

I am a newbie writer. I seem to be doing okay at writing fiction and I thought I was doing well enough to ask for some coaching specific to my writing. Something along the lines of:
* Your biggest weaknesses is that you need to use more descriptive words. Read X on how to improve your word choice
* Your biggest weaknesses is that your characters are too nice and are therefore too shallow. Read Y on how to write three dimensional characters
* Your biggest weaknesses is that your transitions are weak. Read Z on how to move more smoothly from scene to scene

sr71plt, PennLadyand elfin_odalisque, I am following your advice. I am writing four more chapters to the "Michael and Heather" story. I picked up some books on writing at the library and plan to read them. I cherish the comments I have received and they are motivating me to write more. However, I would have done all of those things without your advice. So thanks for the advice, even though I didn't get much out of it.

 

[Darkniciad]

The rest of page 2

Just my thoughts and impressions as I read. I'm not an editor or anything. I'm just a storyteller

"That doesn't seem fair. Did she ever do anything for you when you gave her a massage?"

"She let me have my way with her."

"But she wanted you to do that, right? It doesn't seem a fair exchange."

Here, the earlier lack of reaction from her comes into play. If she'd blown off his "TMI" with a laugh or something, then his coming straight out and talking about sex with his sister wouldn't feel quite as strange to me. As it is, it's pushing the suspension of disbelief barrier for me. Not breaking it, but certainly bending it.

Touching Julie's body for so long had my very horny.

Typo

We loaded everything into the Subaru and started the long drive home.

* * * *

On the drive, Julie said,

Another example of a scene break that feels weird. With that break in there, it gives the impression that they drove for hours without talking or something.

I checked my email when we got home. I managed a mailing list of eighteen bikers of comparable skill levels in the area that included Ben, Patrick, Connor and Evan. Because I managed the list, I was seen as the unofficial leader of the group. There were many mails talking about the hotness of my sister. When was she going to go on another ride?

* * * *

Monday evening, we resumed our training. Julie did great.

"about the hotness of my sister" reads awkward to me. "about how hot my sister had looked" or something wouldn't bump quite so much. "and asking when she was going on another ride" would also bump less than the second sentence.

There's very little to the scene above the break. It's short, and too many of those makes the story feel disjointed.

What I would have done here is have a reaction from him about the emails, and skipped on the scene break. I think that would have flowed smoothly right into the passing of time until Monday.

Julie interrupted my reading with, "You know, I wasn't truthful when I said I didn't want to go out with your friends because they had ignored me."

To me, her dialogue here reads too stilted and formal. It clashes with the earlier dialogue enough for me to notice it. The big culprit is "truthful", but I think "they'd" instead of "they had" would help as well.

everyone treats me like I'm the person I'm now

But here, the second contraction to "I'm" reads really strange to me. I think it really needs to be "I am"

"God no!" she said as she burst into tears.

This threw me for a loop. I think you need to build up that break-down a little more. As it is, the conversation is going along calmly when she suddenly starts bawling.

I read that "God no!" as almost having a laugh attached to it, dismissing the way she was in high-school. The tears immediately thereafter really brought me up short because of that.

I meet up with some of my best friends

Typo

Tuesday at dinner, Julie told me, "I never thanked you for the great weekend. I had a marvelous time and enjoyed meeting your friends again. Can we do another rally this weekend?"

After dinner, we went to my computer and I pulled up a list of bike rides in the vicinity.

He doesn't answer her question here, and that really feels weird to me.

The rest of this scene is really short, and gives me that disjointed feeling again. I think you'd be better served to eliminate the conversation at dinner and summarize those couple of days, leading into the conversation at work on Friday.

All you really need to do is cover that he signed them up for another ride, and that the intimacy had ticked down a level or two.

Now, I couldn't pull him aside and I didn't want to embarrass him in front of Julie and the guys.

* * * *

Julie raised her arms triumphantly when we crossed the finish line.

Getting that disjointed feeling from the short scenes again. Instead of the scene break, I think I would have used some interaction between them about her insisting on riding up the hill rather than walking. Have her make it with a great deal of effort. He's proud of her. She feels good about herself, and they ride on at a slower pace.

That would flow directly into the triumph without the scene break.

Yeah, but you saw my tits last week.

This may very well just be me, and I override my editor on suggestions about dialogue all the time, but "tits" feels like a bit too much here. I would have went with "boobs".

No matter which way you go, what follows is pushing my suspension of disbelief again. He seems to teeter back and forth between a very mild discomfort with his feelings and complacency with some serious temptation, which is what's about to happen here.

In my experience, the readers in the category want the POV character to be a little more torn about his/her feelings, and it certainly helps the suspension of disbelief. I honestly think that's why it's popular with the readers.

With her, she's already making a transition from "sisterly" to "girlfriend", and he's noticing it. She's obviously testing the waters. That's another reason for him to be more out of sorts than you're portraying him.

Otherwise, for the rest of page 2, I think you may need to break up his dialogue and actions in the massage a bit more. The paragraphs get a little long with dialogue at the beginning and end of them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Writing books help no one but Writers Digest.

I think two aspects of writing are essential or the whole thing falls apart: Yuh gotta understand what a story is, that is, Your PC has a big fucking problem that gets worse till there's a crisis, then the PC finds a solution (resolution) to the problem.

The other thing yuh gotta have is this: The PCs gotta have a philosophy for finding a solution. God or Obama cant rescue them. No fortuitous accidents. Its gotta come from their noodle.

 

[8letters]

The rest of page 2

Thanks so much for this. I am surprised anyone would be willing to take so much time to give me feedback. I greatly appreciate the time. It will take me a while to absorb all of this.

In my experience, the readers in the category want the POV character to be a little more torn about his/her feelings, and it certainly helps the suspension of disbelief. I honestly think that's why it's popular with the readers.

With her, she's already making a transition from "sisterly" to "girlfriend", and he's noticing it. She's obviously testing the waters. That's another reason for him to be more out of sorts than you're portraying him.

My intention was that he doesn't take seriously any thought that she might be romantically/sexually serious about him until she asks for the erotic massage. Until then, he is realizing they are more and more in love, but views it as brotherly/sisterly love.

 

[Darkniciad]

Not a problem I don't do it very often, but when my muse is taking a vacation, the time I would usually be writing I can afford to spend on impression reads ( which is what I call this )

I can sort of see how he's not taking it seriously, but I think you need a bit more active dismissal of the notion from him to stress it.

All the deconstruction aside, you're doing pretty well with the readers. You're only a couple thousand views behind my most recent in the category ( Sunny Daze, which is also bro-sis ) and within the top 10 most read stories of the month on Lit

http://www.literotica.com/top/most-read-erotic-stories/last-30-days/?mode=publishes

As before, I'll try to continue on in the story if I have time and the environment around the house is conductive to reading.

Thanks so much for this. I am surprised anyone would be willing to take so much time to give me feedback. I greatly appreciate the time. It will take me a while to absorb all of this.


My intention was that he doesn't take seriously any thought that she might be romantically/sexually serious about him until she asks for the erotic massage. Until then, he is realizing they are more and more in love, but views it as brotherly/sisterly love.

 

[8letters]

All the deconstruction aside, you're doing pretty well with the readers. You're only a couple thousand views behind my most recent in the category ( Sunny Daze, which is also bro-sis ) and within the top 10 most read stories of the month on Lit

Some of that is luck. The story got published on the Saturday before Labor Day and I thought it would be the kiss of death. However, it stayed on the front page for three days, which got me lots of views. It was the rose among thorns those three days, which also helped.

I think it is a good story. The cycling theme seems very popular. I could probably write a bunch of derivative stories (Josh and Julie cycle New York! They cycle with their neighbors! With their Mom! Julie revs up the cycling team!) and do pretty well with them.

Let me try to summarize your comments so far:
* Too many short scenes, which causes my writing to be disjointed. For most (if not all) of the short scenes, I would be better including the information as narrative summary in a larger scene
* Transitions should be smoother. I am too excited about getting to the next plot twist and don't spend enough time setting up the scene
* Spend more time on explaining the character's emotions. Too many inexplicable or poorly explained actions

 

[RejectReality]

Pardon my alt. I'd already started typing, and don't feel like switching windows and cut-n-pasting this *laugh*

That pretty much covers it.

I don't know whether it's so much explaining their emotions as much as demonstrating them, though. The smallest things can make a big difference.

Her reacting to that "TMI" on page 1 would do a lot to establish her feelings about their relationship, and provide a foundation for what's to come. All you need is a hint that you can build on.

He's embarrassed about getting caught checking her out in the mirror, but at the end of page 2, his reaction is completely "meh" when he knows he's going to be staring at her tits close-up in a few minutes. He has to know it's going to be difficult not to react to that, and since he's in denial about the signals she's throwing up, he surely must be a little worried.

Similarly, I don't feel enough surprise from him when he first walks out and she's lying on the bed in nothing but panties. That's a sudden "hello, almost naked!" moment that feels like it needs more than a "Where's your bra?"

Even a quick bit after that line about him being surprised his voice didn't crack or something similar would convey enough. That says "holy shit she looks good" and "how am I going to handle this" all in one neat little package that will color everything for the rest of the scene.

And there's more than "luck" there. Getting eyes on your story doesn't make them vote or comment. You've got the full boat of solid stats

 

[redzinger]

I think it is a good story. The cycling theme seems very popular. I could probably write a bunch of derivative stories (Josh and Julie cycle New York! They cycle with their neighbors! With their Mom! Julie revs up the cycling team!) and do pretty well with them.

Sorry I can't read your story as I don't enjoy the category.

However, I'm wondering if you had any anti-cyclist comments from anyone?

(A couple of days ago, I submitted a cycling-themed story to EC. Feeling a little sensitive after getting back from a 108 mile ride where I was called a 'cyclist cunt' by some twat driving past, plus nearly knocked off a couple more times. There seems to be a lot of hate out there.)

 

[8letters]

Sorry I can't read your story as I don't enjoy the category.

It's a love story. You can do it.

However, I'm wondering if you had any anti-cyclist comments from anyone?

There was one:

Not believable
This story is not even remotely believable. Everybody knows that guy who spends thousands of dollars on a bicycle and drives a Subaru would prefer to suck cock than have anyhting to do with any pussy. I couldn't even make it past the massage in the motel. You need to rewrite this story, take the sis out and put this in the gay section where it belongs.

I had a couple of people reminisce:

The longest bike ride I ever did was taking my old 3 speed Raleigh about 25 fairly hilly miles to college back in the 50's. 'Can appreciate Julie's pains a bit, anyway. My legs ached for a couple of days, but I wanted it to get around the small college town.

Back when I was a teenager I worked for Western Union and rode a bike 8 hours a day 5 days a week sunshine, rain, or snow ( telling how old I am Lol ) they don't do that anymore.

Edit:
I tried to find your story and couldn't. Could you post or send me a link?

I have tried to think how I can re-write my story into a romantic one by plugging a friend in for the sister, but I just don't see how it would work.

 

[redzinger]

Edit:
I tried to find your story and couldn't. Could you post or send me a link?

I have tried to think how I can re-write my story into a romantic one by plugging a friend in for the sister, but I just don't see how it would work.

It's only just been approved:

http://www.literotica.com/s/a-wheelie-good-time

Have already noticed a few grammatical errors though, dammit!

I meet loads of people on various clubs' rides, some of the lads are like brothers to me. Unfortunately, I don't fancy any of them, your average male club cyclist around my age is a beanpole.

 

[8letters]

It's only just been approved:

http://www.literotica.com/s/a-wheelie-good-time

Read it. I don't know how it compares to other Erotic Couplings stories, but I thought the female lead was far too sex crazed.