Feedback requested for "My Mom Competes with my Stepmom"

[8letters]

The story is here.

It's currently the most read story in the last 30 days. It has a 4.81 rating and the vast majority of its 70 comments are positive. At 14 pages, it's a bit of a read but the comments I've gotten on the length have all been positive.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've started, but it will take a while to finish. 14 pages equals about 52,000 words! That's novel-length. It's longer than The Great Gatsby. I seldom read Literotica stories that long, but I'll finish this one and give my input.

 

[8letters]

I've started, but it will take a while to finish. 14 pages equals about 52,000 words! That's novel-length. It's longer than The Great Gatsby. I seldom read Literotica stories that long, but I'll finish this one and give my input.

And yet, I've gotten lots of comments requesting a part 2.

 

[SimonDoom]

And yet, I've gotten lots of comments requesting a part 2.

You, and everybody else. It's a big club.

 

[lovecraft68]

And yet, I've gotten lots of comments requesting a part 2.

My Siblings with benefits series totaled an insane 900k spanned over 44 chapters and a 5 chapter spin off. I wrapped up every loose end and gave a surprising(for the tone of the series) HEA....people still asked for more.

 

[NotWise]

My Siblings with benefits series totaled an insane 900k spanned over 44 chapters and a 5 chapter spin off. I wrapped up every loose end and gave a surprising(for the tone of the series) HEA....people still asked for more.

I think the requests for the next part are mostly just compliments saying that they liked the story.

TxRad has a story (shocking, I know) about when he killed off all of the characters in the last scene. They were blown up and gone, but apparently not forgotten. Readers wanted MORE.

I've become more aware of closing up loose ends. I think it's better writing, but tying up the dangling parts isn't going to stop enthusiastic readers from wanting more.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've read the first 4 Literotica pages of your story. There are 10 more to go, but I choose not to read more.

The story of mine that you read and commented on (and thanks for commenting, even if some of the comments were quite critical) was less than 4 pages, and all the erotic adventure was wrapped up by the end of that fourth page.

I'm 4 pages into your story, and nothing erotic or arousing has happened. That's over 14,000 words. We're about a third of the way through a short novel. I'm not interested in Bryson. I'm not interested in Mom. I don't like Allison. The women are angst-ridden complainers. Bryson is a 20-something cipher with no interesting qualities. I have no interest in whether any of them ever have sex with one another. The interchange between Mom and Bryson about her panties seemed phony to me. That's one thing in a 10000-word story that is a light fantasy. But a 45,000 + word short novel needs more than that. I can't read an erotic story like this.

I realize that not every reader is like me, and that there's no right or wrong when it comes to erotic taste, and that what arouses others is every bit as legitimate as what arouses me. Your story has done extremely well since it was published just over one month ago. There's a huge reservoir of readers at Literotica who like very long, sometimes novel-length incest stories that are full of angst and backstory. You have tapped into that reservoir with great success. I sometimes wonder whether you've become addicted to it and can't leave it. You only write incest stories (other than one other story in the past), and to me it feels like you are merely finding slightly different ways to tap into the same reservoir, over and over again, to drum up views and high scores consistent with what you've become accustomed to.

I've been accused of doing something similar, and also of not sufficiently building up the characters in my stories about incestuous relationships to make them seem "real." I think there's some fairness to that criticism, although I also write completely different kinds of stories in different categories. In incest I don't want to write a 10+ page "short" erotica story to satisfy someone's belief that the incestuous relationship needs to be amplified. It seems unnecessary to me. To me, a lot of your long dialogue sequences seem like padding. I don't feel like I'm plumbing the depths of your characters. I just feel like I'm spending more time with their not-very-deep selves than I want to spend.

That may sound harsh, so I'll say this to counterbalance it. You write well. I don't know if it's mostly you or if a lot of it is your editors, but the writing is good. It's very smooth and easy to follow. I don't have to worry about annoying nits that throw me out of the story. You have a gift for storytelling. You are a good crafter of stories -- you have a feel for developing the story arc. Often you are good at developing characters, although I don't think you did that in this story. I was bored of all the characters immediately and after four pages I'm not going to spend any more time on them when nothing sexy has happened. Nothing has developed. I don't know where this is going and I've run out of patience.

Since I agreed to read one of your stories, I'm going to read the European Vacation story in full and comment on it. I recall starting it at one point and I liked the feel of it at first even though I didn't continue with it, for whatever reason. I thought Lingerie-Loving Sister was really good and erotic. I liked some of your other stories. This one definitely did not do it for me, and that's mostly because I just didn't like or care about any of the characters and was uninterested in whether they had sex with one another, and in my opinion, one of the key components of a good erotic story is you've got to get the reader to WANT the characters to have sex quickly in the story, even if the characters themselves aren't on board with the idea yet.

You are perfectly well within your rights to pursue whatever artistic goals you want here but I think you'd do well to write something really different -- a story in a different category from the point of view of someone other than a guy who's around 20 or so and who talks and thinks with the limited perspective of someone of that age, which must be somewhat younger than you at this point.

If I may make one more constructive criticism, I think in this story, and in some of your other more recent stories, unlike earlier stories, you've focused too much on the negative -- the backstory that makes everyone out of sorts and angst-ridden and conflicted -- and not enough on the positive qualities of the characters that gets the readers invested in them and makes readers want them to have sex with one another. It's an essential thing to do, early on. Early in your story, have each of the characters do SOMETHING that makes the reader like them, or at least find them attractive or sexy. In your bicycle story, or in Lingerie-Loving Sister, I felt the attraction and wanted it to culminate in sex. Four pages into this story, I feel none of that. I'm completely indifferent. There's too much negative. Negativity, in my view, sometimes lends a faux weight to a story -- it creates a superficial sense that the story is deep. But it's a boner-killer and brain-killer for me. It makes me want to find stories that are lighter and more positive and more truly arousing. To end on a positive note, I have NO doubt from your body of work and your obvious skill that you are capable of writing more such stories. Whether you want to or not is of course your choice.

 

[lovecraft68]

Started it, but it will take awhile. I got something inside my contact and scratched my eye a couple days ago. And of course its the right eye-I'm legally blind in my left) so I'm pasting it into word and setting a blue background to cut down on glare, but still have to squint a lot.

A page in and one quick observation. Bryson's dialogue is too...I don't know, proper? I keep thinking no one speaks that way, especially a kid.

This could be me. I live and die by dialogue in my writing so sometimes I tend to look too closely at other peoples.

 

[8letters]

I've read the first 4 Literotica pages of your story. There are 10 more to go, but I choose not to read more.

I'm sorry that I pushed you into reading a story that you didn't like. Based on the rating and the topic, I thought you would.

Since I agreed to read one of your stories, I'm going to read the European Vacation story in full and comment on it. I recall starting it at one point and I liked the feel of it at first even though I didn't continue with it, for whatever reason.

Don't feel bound to read one of my stories. You've given me feedback (to be discussed soon), so read what you want to read. That being said, your complaints about "My Mom Competes with my Stepmom" don't apply to "My European Summer Vacation" as they have sex on page 2 and regularly thereafter, and Sinead is not an angst-ridden complainer.

You write well. I don't know if it's mostly you or if a lot of it is your editors, but the writing is good. It's very smooth and easy to follow. I don't have to worry about annoying nits that throw me out of the story. You have a gift for storytelling. You are a good crafter of stories -- you have a feel for developing the story arc.

Thanks for this. I've gotten several comments on this story saying that it was well-written, but that didn't give me any idea as to what I had done well in my writing this did.

I'll take credit for the smoothness and easiness to follow. As for no annoying nits, I had a beta-reader volunteer to read the story to look just for such nits, and he found over 150. Someone else found one, and I think the story is nit-free because of them.

* * * *

As for the rest of your feedback, it mostly made me laugh. You sound geniunly angry that so many people would like my style in general and this story specifically.

Backing up to the thread that prompted use creating these two feedback threads, I said, "I've come to the conclusion that it's best to only leave positive comments.". Someone replied, "That is a disservice to the writer you're leaving the comment for." Others said something similar. I countered with "To me, the rating of the story, the number and quality of comments, and the other story statistics provide much better feedback than I'm going to be able to give." After more discussion, I said, "What I'm arguing is that people who leave a comment that tells an author an area they can improve on are very unlikely to help the author become a better writer. They are much more likely to anger the author or demotivate them. People don't like unsolicited advice." That led me to challenging you to leave a comment on one of my stories that you think provides helpful feedback.

Backing up in a different direction, I have a very distinctive style that's dramatically different than the typical incest story. Part of that is typically you have to read through pages and pages of plot and character development to get to the sex. There's a host of other things about my style that makes it dramatically different, like I mention making meals a lot.

To me, most of your feedback was you specifying the ways you don't like my style. It's fine that you don't like my style. Lots of people don't like my style. But I really like my style. I'm open to making small tweaks to my style and to improving my writing within my style, but not making significant changes. And I think most authors are the same way. So leaving a comment to an author telling them you don't like their style doesn't help them to be a better writer and instead angers and/or demotivates them.

* * * *

Which brings me to the part of your feedback I found most thought-provoking:

There's a huge reservoir of readers at Literotica who like very long, sometimes novel-length incest stories that are full of angst and backstory. You have tapped into that reservoir with great success. I sometimes wonder whether you've become addicted to it and can't leave it. You only write incest stories (other than one other story in the past), and to me it feels like you are merely finding slightly different ways to tap into the same reservoir, over and over again, to drum up views and high scores consistent with what you've become accustomed to.
:
You are perfectly well within your rights to pursue whatever artistic goals you want here but I think you'd do well to write something really different -- a story in a different category from the point of view of someone other than a guy who's around 20 or so and who talks and thinks with the limited perspective of someone of that age, which must be somewhat younger than you at this point.

I take this as the "write like me" part of your feedback.

In what way would I do well to write a story in a different category from the point of view of a guy who's significantly older than 20? (BTW I do have three I/T stories from the point of view of a guy who is at least 25 - "My Lingerie-Loving Sister Moves In", "Carpooling With My Sister", "Cycling Weekends with Sis")

I see three major problems with writing a story in a different category from I/T:
* I/T is the category I read. I/T stories to me are "man bites dog" stories that arouse me. Stories in other categories are "dog sniffs man" stories. I'm not into any kinks like BDSM or E&V
* As you know as well as me, I/T is the category with by far the most readers. The hatefest LW has the next most readers, and I don't care to get a lot of comments from those readers. Any other category is going to be a big step down in terms of response
* I've built up a good-sized support system for writing incest stories, and I enjoy interacting with the people in that support system. I won't be able to use them if I write for another category, making the writing experience less enjoyable to me

If I was going to write something other than an incest story, I'd write a non-erotic story and publish it on a different website under a different pen name. Then I could tell all my friends and family that I wrote a story.

 

[8letters]

Started it, but it will take awhile. I got something inside my contact and scratched my eye a couple days ago. And of course its the right eye-I'm legally blind in my left) so I'm pasting it into word and setting a blue background to cut down on glare, but still have to squint a lot.

Sorry to hear it. Sight is so important to the enjoyment of life.

A page in and one quick observation. Bryson's dialogue is too...I don't know, proper? I keep thinking no one speaks that way, especially a kid.

This could be me. I live and die by dialogue in my writing so sometimes I tend to look too closely at other peoples.

Could you give me some examples of dialogue that seems off to you and how you would have written it?

 

[SimonDoom]

As for the rest of your feedback, it mostly made me laugh. You sound geniunly angry that so many people would like my style in general and this story specifically.

.

That's not fair at all, and it's not at all accurate. There's no anger involved. You have no reason to think this. Your remarks on my stories have been every bit as critical, and more intemperate. But I don't assume there's any anger on your part. You have no reason to believe I'm angry at all.

We write stories that overlap in subject matter, but we have different approaches. That's fine. There's no right or wrong. You asked for criticism, and I gave it. I gave you my honest opinion. If you're going to dish out criticism, which coming from you can be quite harsh, and then ask for it yourself, you should expect to get, and be able to take, honest and unvarnished criticism. That's what I gave, and that's what I figured you'd want.

I've said on a number of occasions that I appreciate some of your stories, so you're definitely jumping the gun in assuming there's any anger on my part.

 

[8letters]

That's not fair at all, and it's not at all accurate. There's no anger involved. You have no reason to think this. Your remarks on my stories have been every bit as critical, and more intemperate. But I don't assume there's any anger on your part. You have no reason to believe I'm angry at all.

We write stories that overlap in subject matter, but we have different approaches. That's fine. There's no right or wrong. You asked for criticism, and I gave it. I gave you my honest opinion. If you're going to dish out criticism, which coming from you can be quite harsh, and then ask for it yourself, you should expect to get, and be able to take, honest and unvarnished criticism. That's what I gave, and that's what I figured you'd want.

I've said on a number of occasions that I appreciate some of your stories, so you're definitely jumping the gun in assuming there's any anger on my part.

First off, I expected you to give me honest and unvarnished criticism. I would have been disappointed if you hadn't.

It could well be the difference in how we provide feedback. I make suggestions - "You could have done this instead of what you did". You say what you didn't like, leaving it up to me to determine what I could change to address the issues you raise. In general, I prefer getting your style of feedback - I almost always find other's suggestions to be something I don't want to do. But to me, suggestions sound less harsh, and I'm not used to getting that much "Here are things I didn't like".

 

[SimonDoom]

It could well be the difference in how we provide feedback. I make suggestions - "You could have done this instead of what you did". You say what you didn't like, leaving it up to me to determine what I could change to address the issues you raise. .

This is a fair comment. My criticism is somewhat vague. It tells you how I reacted, but it doesn't give you suggestions. I usually like to give and receive criticism that is constructive. The idea is not just to tell the author "I didn't like this" or "This is how I would rewrite your story" but to give advice that might potentially be helpful within the context of the author's purposes. My view of criticism is that ideally it should help the author write a better version of the author's story, not somebody else's story. I didn't follow my own usual approach with the criticism I gave you.

So a few things:

1. On the first page, during the initial interactions between Son and Mom, I'd like to see the story say something good about Mom. There's a screenwriting book called "Save the Cat", and in it the author discussed the idea that a good character has to do something onscreen, even a little thing, that makes the audience like the character and get invested in the character. The character must have a "save the cat" moment. In an incest story, IMO, I think it's important to get readers interested in seeing Mom and Son get together, even, perhaps, before either of them feel or want to act on the attraction. In this case Mom seems insufficiently sympathetic and appealing. She just seems angry and aggrieved. This is what I regard as a flaw in some, but not all, of your stories. Since you're writing a long story anyway, I'd like to see a little more attention paid to why I should find the character so attractive that the incest taboo should be overcome.

2. Same thing with Allison. This is tricky because you want the reader to want Son to have sex with both of them, but it would be useful to have her do or say something that makes her appealing in a way that contrasts with Mom. They share a grievance against the loutish father/husband, but that's not quite enough to make each a compelling figure. This is less important in a really short story, but I think it matters in a long one. Yours is novel-length. You do mention in the first interaction with Allison that she is a nice person, but I'd like to see her do something nice rather than be described as nice. Later Bryson acknowledges that she acts kindly toward him, and that's something, but I'd like to see it before she gets described as nice. Show, don't tell.

3. I think your dialogue passages should be condensed. You can get across exactly the same basic point in less time and words. The reader doesn't need to see everything. Some things can be left out and suggested.

4. In the conversation between Mom and Son about the panties, for example, I think this would be better if less was said. Make it suggestive. There's so much revelation between the two of them that it doesn't feel authentic. Real people often are not very articulate with one another. In reality, a few suggestive things would be said, and then they'd retreat, and not say anything more. All you need is a few lines.

5. I'm curious why you switch between Bryson's 1st person POV to third person POV from Mom's perspective. Why not just maintain a consistent 3d person omniscient? Or a consistent 1st person POV from Bryson's POV?

6. I have a general principle that the POV from which the story should be told is the one where the interesting conflict is happening. It's especially true if you need to transition from a state of normalcy to weirdness. For instance, it's weird for a Mom to give her panties to her son. You narrate Mom's concern about Son getting panties from Allison. But then you switch to Son's perspective when Mom gives him her panties. So you skip over something essential -- how does Mom get to the point of wanting to give Son her panties? That's a huge (and improbable) step that you've glossed over. You tease us briefly with Mom's perspective, but only when she's jealous about Allison's panties, and you don't take us into her head when she takes the big step. This is the single biggest step in the story, because it sets things on course for incest. It doesn't make sense that you'd take us into Mom's head briefly but then take us out when the single most important step is taken. So, when the Mom-Son panty scene takes place, you tell it from Bryson's POV, and I feel deprived of seeing what Mom is going through. It would be better if either a) you get into Mom's head and transition more so we see her as more of a person, or b) you eliminate altogether the 3d person POV scenes from Mom's perspective, and just stick to 1st person POV from Bryson. It's really important to be interested in Mom, early in a Mom-Son incest story. As a reader I want to feel, Man, I'd jump her bones if I was her son. I don't feel that here. You need a "save the cat" detail and/or more sympathetic exploration of Mom's evolving feelings about her son.

7. In general, I think the dialogue passages are too long, and too expository, and that deprives them somewhat of authenticity. I think they'd achieve everything you are trying to achieve, but in fewer words, if you abbreviated them, and leave some things out that the reader can piece together.

8. I'm struck by the lack of visual response by Bryson to Mom and to Allison. Men -- most men, anyway, me, certainly -- are visual. They are attracted to women based on visual characteristics. This can be overdone, but as a reader I'd like to see, early in the story, some narrative that persuades me that the son would see Mom and Allison as bangable. Otherwise, it doesn't seem plausible to me at all. You don't have to overdo it, with descriptions of huge cup sizes, etc. But something would help. For the first 4 pages of the story, it's the rivalry and jealousy between the women that drive things, and that's not a bad plot device, but I don't think it's enough. This story is mostly from Bryson's perspective, not Mom's or Allison's, so his attraction to them is the key. That needs to be foreshadowed and set up very early in the story. If the story were from Mom's point of view, that would be completely different -- you could focus on her jealousy, and it might work just fine.

9. I'm not sure what to suggest about the scene where Son tells Mom to show him her tits. At a minimum it needs some buildup. It just didn't seem real, and I'm more than willing to suspend disbelief in incest stories. As I read this scene, I thought, this would be better from Mom's POV, because that's where the real erotic tension and interest are. What's going through Mom's mind that would lead her to do this? And if you're going to tell it from Bryson's POV, then more buildup and set up for his "show me your tits" request is needed. It kind of came out of the blue.

10. If you're going to tell the story from Son's POV, then I think his thought processes need to be a bit more involved and more interesting. More conflicted. More overt reckoning with his growing desire to pit Mom and Step-Mom against each other. Much more treatment of his growing attraction for them, and why he'd go in that direction rather than girls his own age, because from the way he's described it sounds like he's capable of that.

11. I'm breaking my rule here, but if I wrote this story I'd do it from Mom's POV, because that's where the real erotic conflict lies. But that's me. There's plenty of interesting opportunity from son's POV too. But if you're going to do that, I think it works better solely from Son's 1st person POV rather than sometimes delving into Mom's POV in 3d person. The problem with the latter is you eliminate surprise for the reader later.

12. If you're going to pace this thing this deliberately and stretch it over this many pages, then I think you need to sex it up more, and earlier. You don't necessarily have to have more stuff happen, but Bryson's reaction and narrative have to be more interesting. It seemed sort of matter of fact. I'd like to see Bryson have more individuality and more interesting perspectives on what's going on, since you've devoted a whole novel to his point of view on these events. Give him a hobby, or some quirk, at the beginning of the story, that becomes a theme. For instance, in my long mom-son series both mom and son are runners, and son's first erotic encounter is watching his mom running from behind and finding her sexy, not realizing at first that it's her. Physical attraction -- obsessive and overwhelming -- is a driving element. That's somewhat missing here.

Obviously, the story has done really well. I'm a big believer in the wisdom of crowds. Obviously, you are doing something right. So all advice has to be taken with a grain of salt. But you wanted criticism, and that's my honest criticism.

 

[8letters]

Let me start by saying your second feedback post was much more enjoyable to read and much more thought provoking than the first one. My response will be an explanation of my style choices.

Next big point - I find mom-son stories unrealistic fantasies. They aren't that hot to me because of how unrealistic I find them. If I'm going to read a story I find unrealistic, I prefer whole-family stories.

Why I do I find mom-son stories so unrealistic? Let me count the ways:
1. There are virtually no real-life analogs to mom-son relationships that I know of. There used to be the Ashton Kutcher-Demi Moore marriage, but they divorced and Kutcher married his 5 1/2 year younger That '70s Showstar Mila Kunis
2. Guys seem to be programed to ignore older women and look for younger women. The more status a man has, the younger he can look. When Fortune 400 CEO's remarry, the average age difference is over 20 years. I don't know if that's biological or societal, but it's there. When I read, "All my friends tell me my mom is a MILF", I'm ready to hit the back button
3. In addition to the guy being typically older, he typically has more money than the girl he's dating. I'm not saying relationships where she's paying all the time can't work, I'm saying our societal mores are against such relationships
4. To me, the typical mom role is to make sure the son does the right thing and stays safe. To me, that's not compatible with being a romantic partner

I've been asked a lot to write a mom-son story. I could never come up with one I liked. Adding in the trophy-wife step mom is what made the story work for me. In ways, the story is a parody of mom-son stories.

1. On the first page, during the initial interactions between Son and Mom, I'd like to see the story say something good about Mom. There's a screenwriting book called "Save the Cat", and in it the author discussed the idea that a good character has to do something onscreen, even a little thing, that makes the audience like the character and get invested in the character. The character must have a "save the cat" moment. In an incest story, IMO, I think it's important to get readers interested in seeing Mom and Son get together, even, perhaps, before either of them feel or want to act on the attraction. In this case Mom seems insufficiently sympathetic and appealing. She just seems angry and aggrieved. This is what I regard as a flaw in some, but not all, of your stories. Since you're writing a long story anyway, I'd like to see a little more attention paid to why I should find the character so attractive that the incest taboo should be overcome.

2. Same thing with Allison. This is tricky because you want the reader to want Son to have sex with both of them, but it would be useful to have her do or say something that makes her appealing in a way that contrasts with Mom. They share a grievance against the loutish father/husband, but that's not quite enough to make each a compelling figure. This is less important in a really short story, but I think it matters in a long one. Yours is novel-length. You do mention in the first interaction with Allison that she is a nice person, but I'd like to see her do something nice rather than be described as nice. Later Bryson acknowledges that she acts kindly toward him, and that's something, but I'd like to see it before she gets described as nice. Show, don't tell.

My style is to have a minimal sexual attraction between my characters at the start of my stories. The male character narrating the story only notices that his family member is attractive. That would be particularly true of a mom-son and a stepmom-son. At the beginning, the mom is a nice mom and Allison is a nice stepmom, and nothing more than that. Bryson is focused on his girlfriend Brittney.

3. I think your dialogue passages should be condensed. You can get across exactly the same basic point in less time and words. The reader doesn't need to see everything. Some things can be left out and suggested.

4. In the conversation between Mom and Son about the panties, for example, I think this would be better if less was said. Make it suggestive. There's so much revelation between the two of them that it doesn't feel authentic. Real people often are not very articulate with one another. In reality, a few suggestive things would be said, and then they'd retreat, and not say anything more. All you need is a few lines.

I'm not seeing it. The dialogue in that scene looks fine to me.

5. I'm curious why you switch between Bryson's 1st person POV to third person POV from Mom's perspective. Why not just maintain a consistent 3d person omniscient? Or a consistent 1st person POV from Bryson's POV?

I thought that scene from the mom's perspective was necessary to set up the next scene. She's ready to jump to the idea that Allison gave him the panties. Bryson never would have thought of that on his own. One of my beta-readers asked me the same question. I considered it then and decided the scene was necessary.

6. I have a general principle that the POV from which the story should be told is the one where the interesting conflict is happening. It's especially true if you need to transition from a state of normalcy to weirdness. For instance, it's weird for a Mom to give her panties to her son. You narrate Mom's concern about Son getting panties from Allison. But then you switch to Son's perspective when Mom gives him her panties. So you skip over something essential -- how does Mom get to the point of wanting to give Son her panties? That's a huge (and improbable) step that you've glossed over. You tease us briefly with Mom's perspective, but only when she's jealous about Allison's panties, and you don't take us into her head when she takes the big step. This is the single biggest step in the story, because it sets things on course for incest. It doesn't make sense that you'd take us into Mom's head briefly but then take us out when the single most important step is taken. So, when the Mom-Son panty scene takes place, you tell it from Bryson's POV, and I feel deprived of seeing what Mom is going through. It would be better if either a) you get into Mom's head and transition more so we see her as more of a person, or b) you eliminate altogether the 3d person POV scenes from Mom's perspective, and just stick to 1st person POV from Bryson.

To me, one of the things that makes incest stories so hot is that the main character doesn't know what the other characters are thinking. Also, the reader in general shouldn't know anything more than what the narrating character knows. I felt I had to break that a little bit with the prior scene from the mom's perspective, but, to me, it would have ruined the scene if we knew what the mom was thinking.

It's really important to be interested in Mom, early in a Mom-Son incest story. As a reader I want to feel, Man, I'd jump her bones if I was her son. I don't feel that here. You need a "save the cat" detail and/or more sympathetic exploration of Mom's evolving feelings about her son.

That's not the way I write my stories. And I find the idea that a son at the start of the story would be longing to jump his mom's bones too implausible for me to write.

7. In general, I think the dialogue passages are too long, and too expository, and that deprives them somewhat of authenticity. I think they'd achieve everything you are trying to achieve, but in fewer words, if you abbreviated them, and leave some things out that the reader can piece together.

Some of this may be style. Tough to say without examples.

8. I'm struck by the lack of visual response by Bryson to Mom and to Allison. Men -- most men, anyway, me, certainly -- are visual. They are attracted to women based on visual characteristics. This can be overdone, but as a reader I'd like to see, early in the story, some narrative that persuades me that the son would see Mom and Allison as bangable. Otherwise, it doesn't seem plausible to me at all. You don't have to overdo it, with descriptions of huge cup sizes, etc. But something would help. For the first 4 pages of the story, it's the rivalry and jealousy between the women that drive things, and that's not a bad plot device, but I don't think it's enough. This story is mostly from Bryson's perspective, not Mom's or Allison's, so his attraction to them is the key. That needs to be foreshadowed and set up very early in the story. If the story were from Mom's point of view, that would be completely different -- you could focus on her jealousy, and it might work just fine.

Initially, Bryson has no visual response to his Mom or Allison. They are older women, parental figures. All he's going to notice is that they are attractive for their age. Later, as things heat up between Bryson and the two women, he begins to notice their visual appeal.

9. I'm not sure what to suggest about the scene where Son tells Mom to show him her tits. At a minimum it needs some buildup. It just didn't seem real, and I'm more than willing to suspend disbelief in incest stories. As I read this scene, I thought, this would be better from Mom's POV, because that's where the real erotic tension and interest are. What's going through Mom's mind that would lead her to do this? And if you're going to tell it from Bryson's POV, then more buildup and set up for his "show me your tits" request is needed. It kind of came out of the blue.

To me, that's the most implausible scene in the story. I did my best to set it up, but I was counting on my readers willing to suspend disbelief.

10. If you're going to tell the story from Son's POV, then I think his thought processes need to be a bit more involved and more interesting. More conflicted. More overt reckoning with his growing desire to pit Mom and Step-Mom against each other. Much more treatment of his growing attraction for them, and why he'd go in that direction rather than girls his own age, because from the way he's described it sounds like he's capable of that.

I'm fine with Bryson's thought processes. He's not looking to have sex with his mom or his stepmom. He's surprised and pleased each step of the way. His mom never allows their relationship to turn romantic. It's a normal mom-son relationship except for "quality time". He begins to have feelings for Allison during their first week of sex, and gradually falls in love with her over the summer. The romantic part of his relationship with his mom is suppressed all summer, with the mom only admitting she has feelings at the end of their last fuck.

11. I'm breaking my rule here, but if I wrote this story I'd do it from Mom's POV, because that's where the real erotic conflict lies. But that's me.

That's a completely different story. That would cut out the Allison-Bryson scenes, which are the romantic part of the story. If you want to write it, go for it.

There's plenty of interesting opportunity from son's POV too. But if you're going to do that, I think it works better solely from Son's 1st person POV rather than sometimes delving into Mom's POV in 3d person. The problem with the latter is you eliminate surprise for the reader later.

I wrote the story I wanted to write. And people liked it.

12. If you're going to pace this thing this deliberately and stretch it over this many pages, then I think you need to sex it up more, and earlier. You don't necessarily have to have more stuff happen, but Bryson's reaction and narrative have to be more interesting. It seemed sort of matter of fact. I'd like to see Bryson have more individuality and more interesting perspectives on what's going on, since you've devoted a whole novel to his point of view on these events. Give him a hobby, or some quirk, at the beginning of the story, that becomes a theme. For instance, in my long mom-son series both mom and son are runners, and son's first erotic encounter is watching his mom running from behind and finding her sexy, not realizing at first that it's her. Physical attraction -- obsessive and overwhelming -- is a driving element. That's somewhat missing here.

You want the story to be something it's not. It's not a Hot Mom story.

The themes of the story are infidelity and wanting a family. Allison and the mom use Bryson to start the family they want. And Bryson is fine with being used as he's a horny eighteen-year-old. But once they start fucking, they can't keep their feelings for each other in check.

It's also a coming-of-age story, where Bryson starts off as a horny, lazy, immature eighteen-year-old and gradually becomes a man over the summer under the tutelage of his mom and Allison.

Obviously, the story has done really well. I'm a big believer in the wisdom of crowds. Obviously, you are doing something right. So all advice has to be taken with a grain of salt. But you wanted criticism, and that's my honest criticism.

Thanks for it. It was interesting to think of a response to each issue you raised.

I feel like I owe you a second feedback now. As this is a conversation about writing now, I'll try to write it as asking you questions. I meant my first feedback to be like a long comment left on a story.

 

[SimonDoom]

Thanks for it. It was interesting to think of a response to each issue you raised.

I feel like I owe you a second feedback now. As this is a conversation about writing now, I'll try to write it as asking you questions. I meant my first feedback to be like a long comment left on a story.

Good. There's no need to agree with another person about how to write a story. Obviously, what you do works for you and for a whole lot of readers. These conversations can be useful for becoming more mindful about what we're doing.

You don't owe me any more feedback. If you want to give it, it's welcome, but don't feel obligated.

 

[WritingwhatIlike]

Aw man. I love this back and forth you two are having. It's good, honest, feedback and discourse for the betterment of future pieces/perspectives.

For my own feedback, I echo SimonDoom's thoughts. I think my expectations match up well with what they look for in buildup and plausible scenarios for the maximum suspension of disbelief. That said, clearly this is a story that did well with readers, and I applaud 8letters for it.

In breaking down what the story offers to readers, it seems that it sped up some aspects, such as the move to considering incest, and slowed others down, such as the every day conversations. Enhanced realism, combined with less faffing about with the societal norms. Perhaps it's a sign that readers accept the difficulties with actual incest, and just want to get on with the business of porking their close family members?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Aw man. I love this back and forth you two are having. It's good, honest, feedback and discourse for the betterment of future pieces/perspectives.

Well, it's the right category for a bromance, but I bet neither of them will write that one. Can you imagine the reaction?

 

[SimonDoom]

Well, it's the right category for a bromance, but I bet neither of them will write that one. Can you imagine the reaction?

Let's not go there. Suzie would get jealous. And don't get me started about the penguins . . .

 

[yuka76]

We need a sequel where the mom ends up pregnant and the girls end up sleeping together also

 

[MysteryMaster]

Why the story deleted? I want read it.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Why the story deleted? I want read it.

8letters plagiarized another author, and in the ensuing kerfuffle he took down all of his stories and ragequit.

 

[MysteryMaster]

8letters plagiarized another author, and in the ensuing kerfuffle he took down all of his stories and ragequit.

So no story to read it.
Thank you for your response.