Feedback requested for 8letters' "Comforting My Little Sister"

[8letters]

Twice, someone has wanted to discuss this story in another feedback thread, so I decided to create a thread of its own.

Story: Here

Length: 8 LitE pages (almost 29k words)

Category: Incest

Extended Author's Notes: Here

In my next post, I'm going to list some things that I'd like your thoughts on. But please read the story first before reading that.

Also, don't worry about being too critical. I much more interested in what you think I should do better in the next story than what you think I did right.

 

[8letters]

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I was disappointed with the response to the story at first. Not so much with the rating - though I was disappointed to get a merely good rating after having had two stories with great ratings - but that I felt like the commenters didn't get what I was trying to do with the story. I'd appreciate it if you could help me understand why the readers didn't get the following things:
* The main female character Michelle is flat-chested. It's a major story point. I can't remember a story in I/T that features a flat-chested MFC. I thought I'd get a lot of approving comments on giving some love to flat-chested girls, making Michelle seem sexy even though she was flat chested, etc. Nothing.
* I got criticized a couple of times for the story being wooden. "Reading this was like listening to someone read off a list of facts from a bottle of Tylenol." The one line that person pointed to was "I would always remember this fuck. I would never look on this couch again without thinking of this fuck. Sex and love had transformed an ordinary room into place full of magic." Does that come across as robotic? Was the rest of the story wooden?
* I thought I made the case that Michelle did nothing wrong, that the relationship turned abusive strictly because of Jared. I was really hoping for comments like, "I had never thought about abusive relationships that way." Nothing like that. In fact, I got the comment "Hopefully it will help someone recognize they are in one and get some help to get out of it," which is the opposite of what I was trying to get across.

There were two scenes in the story that I probably should have cut:
* The first is the telemarketer scene. One of my beta-readers made the point that it wasn't erotic and it didn't further the plot. But I had thought it was so funny and I had loved writing it to much to yank it from the story. Should I have cut it out?
* The other scene is the day with Jared. In the first draft, Michelle and Christoper dealing with Jared by hoping he goes away. I knew the long scene with Jared was non-erotic and didn't really advance the story. But I wanted to have something so that Jared was dealt with and that was I came up with. What would have worked better? The crowd pleaser would have been to have something like the end of "Back to the Future" - Christopher comes across Jared harrassing Michelle, he takes Jared out with one punch and Jared runs off with his tail between his legs. That's the typical solution to domestic abuse in movies and to portray violence as the solution to violence just offends me

 

[AwkwardMD]

I already offered to give someone else some feedback privately, and this week and the next are going to be hectic around some personal things. It might be a couple weeks while I work through a big backlog of stuff in addition to the three stories I'm currently working on. I will get to this though.

 

[8letters]

I already offered to give someone else some feedback privately, and this week and the next are going to be hectic around some personal things. It might be a couple weeks while I work through a big backlog of stuff in addition to the three stories I'm currently working on. I will get to this though.

I appreciate you letting me know. I'm looking forward to it. Have a nice 4th.

 

[hadruprider]

Here are a few quick thoughts.

I like stories where you don't know what's going to happen. A story that starts with little sister coming into the bedroom isn't in that category.

There is a lot of repetition, for example back-stroking and being angry with Jared.

In general, the story is too long for its content, if that makes sense.

On a more positive note, I think the writing is good and some of the sex scenes are quite hot.

On the specific points-
* Yes I got that Michelle was flat-chested, but that doesn't affect my view of the story either way.
* Yes the story is a bit wooden, not in terms of the writing but the entirely predictable plot with the gradual escalation of the relationship.
* Yes it was clear she was blameless. But I don't think there is anything novel or interesting about that.
* Telemarketer scene is fine. It adds variety.
* The scenes with Jared in hospital and police station did not seem convincing to me.

 

[8letters]

Thanks hadruprider for taking the time to read my story and provide me the feedback.

I like stories where you don't know what's going to happen. A story that starts with little sister coming into the bedroom isn't in that category.

Could you expand on this please? The incest category is not known for keeping readers in suspense on who's going to fuck who.

There is a lot of repetition, for example back-stroking and being angry with Jared.

I can see that.

In general, the story is too long for its content, if that makes sense.

Somewhat. It's a very long story by LitE standards and I probably should have been more aggressive about cutting stuff out. I'd have to look it over, but I think the pictures from Jared could have been cut out without hurting the story.

On a more positive note, I think the writing is good and some of the sex scenes are quite hot.

Which sex scenes?

The scenes with Jared in hospital and police station did not seem convincing to me.

What could I have done to make them convincing?

Thanks again.

 

[8letters]

Polar opposites

The following is feedback that electricblue66 sent me in a PM and that I am posting with his permission:
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Ok, 8letters and I have established several times in this Feedback Forum that we are probably polar opposites in our writing styles and approach to our content. So here's twenty cents worth from a very different point of view. Like 8letters, I have illustrated with extracts from my own work - words being the subject of difference here. By the way, I am NOT saying my way is better. It's my way, 8letters writes his way, we have different reader responses, we write in different genres, he has readers who love his work (I've read the comments to his story, yep, folk like it). I have readers who crave mine (a reader's word, not mine, but to have someone crave for my writing is pretty damn pleasing!). So we are each our own, and thank goodness for that.

1.Small breasts. What's the big deal? I don't see why it's made into such a huge thing, to the extent that you thought you would get comments on this, specifically. Women have big breasts, small breasts, long thick nipples, tiny pink nipples, deep cleavage, no cleavage, high apple breasts, lush big swinging breasts, some women have scars on their breasts or no breasts at all because a cancer has been removed. I say, good on you for writing about a skinny girl with no boobs, you've actually written about a real person, not some plastic, silicon enhanced porn star image.

But your story just goes on and on about it, why? We get it, Michelle's got small boobs. They're beautiful too. I mean, nearly all of my heroines have small breasts. Why? I don't especially like big ones (some girls have been glorious exceptions) and in real life, nearly all the women I've known have been slim and slender.

By comparison my minimalist approach establishes the same point in fewer words:

She was wearing a plain tee top, her breasts nippled and softly swinging under it. She wasn't big, but her breasts were a gorgeous shape. She didn't need a bra, and was comfortable without one. Her waist was slender, her belly flat, and her legs were sprayed into a pair of jeans that clung to her ass and thighs. She was one of those girls with a space at the top of her thighs, may be an inch wide. I looked, I'll admit that.

2. Wooden. You desire for constant context and detail means you are telling me so much that I don't want to know, and I don't need to know. You tell me everything, e v e r y t h i n g, and the flow stops and backs up while I get an info dump. A whole paragraph on the home reno and the old bed, and the the night time pillow ritual... why? Later, another para backing up, telling me Christopher's got a job, goes to college, got a gf. So? Relevant how?

You're telling me all this, but I keep thinking, why, how is the relevant? Your style is very didactic, it's obviously very important for you to tell us this context and content, but I don't need to be spoon fed, I've got an imagination, give me words that allow me to add my own flavour, my own "seeing eye" to this. It becomes very "colour by numbers" for me.

I have a customer in my real world who is obsessive compulsive. He keeps sending me reams of technical content he's found on the web. Measurements, specifications, words words words. He has no idea what they mean (I'm the technical one), but he thinks they're important. They're not, not really. Reading your story is like reading his emails. I need a massive "what's the point of all this" filter. I'm afraid your story is just like one of his emails, long, dry, and oh god, stop already. But he's a good bloke, his heart is absolutely in the right place. He just thinks differently to me, but we get on brilliantly. We've just learned over time that we're different. 8letters you remind me of him in many ways. You and I just think differently.

Stroking her back, stroking her hair. So much repetition of the same phrases. I'm hyper aware of doing this, as I was rightfully called out for repetition in one my stories (Naoko Smith called it a flawed masterpiece, and she is a critic worth having) and ever since I scrub my text hard to eliminate it.

Mix it up, describe what he's doing with other words, what does he feel doing it, how is she responding? It's so repetitive, and becomes like some kind of mantra; and after too many times, for me it became a bit creepy. And again, your telling me, but I'm not feeling anything.

My approach to a similar scenario (first time, just turned eighteen - not bro/sis though, but still that tentative thing):

Pamela lay there in her plain white bra, her small breasts rising quickly with her fast breath, and her slim torso shivered in the air, even though it was warm. Her skin was pale, and the indents of her ribs were ripples of shadow and light. Her slim waist curved into her blue jeans, and she was young and pale, the thin strap of her bra sliding off her shoulder.

Her breasts were small, but with full nipples, firm and long. She did not really need a bra, her pale curves had no weight, her nipples almost the biggest part. But Pamela was a conservative girl, and only the daring girls, the dope smoking hippy girls, only those girls went braless.

But that afternoon, in the streaming sun, dust motes spiralling, her pale skin warmed and she let me undo the clip at her back. I tenderly slipped the little white cups of cloth from her breasts and the straps down her arms, she hid her breasts from my sight.

And then forgot that she did so, as her slim arms went about my neck. She pulled the weight of my body onto hers and held me close, and the next time we rolled to our sides, her breasts were bare and her body exposed. Pam was quietly proud of herself, for showing me her beauty.

Pamela lay on her side, her head on her arm and her other arm stretched high on the pillow, slim body all stretched out. Her chest was like a boy's, but her tiny waist was a girl's, and her hair was long and all uncoiled from its plait, a long thick dark wave around her.

In the warming sun, her pale beauty was fragile and delicate. Her waist was so small, sometimes I feared she might break. But she liked my weight upon her, and wrapped her arms around my back. Her eyes were dark, big and dark.

Dialogue: oh dear..

When the spurts stopped, I said, "I'm done."

"Okay." Michelle stood up.

"Thanks, Michelle. That was great."

This is like my kids in primary school, with show and tell. "We went to the zoo on the weekend. It was fun."

My comparison, (no dialogue):

That small moment on the sun soaked bed was, for me, the centre of that time with Clio, my Clio for just a moment. Time spiralled into that time as, without a stroke or a clench, I silently came on her belly, the white cream of my semen a contrast to the darkness of Clio's flesh, the pulse of my cock held silently between her palm and her fingers, her eyes a darkness pulling my soul into her being as my cream spilled onto her skin.

I did not know it then, but our time spiralled away from that moment, outwards and away, and it was fragmentary and our innocence was lost. Sweet God, her smile, her beautiful smile.

3. Blameless. Yes, the victim of bullying and manipulation is always a victim. But again, you're didactic about it. I think you belabour the point, do it to death, and it reads like an essay, not a piece of erotica.

I said the same thing this way:

But Clio didn't want to talk about her marriage, she wanted to find out what I was doing with my life. We ended up at a new Vietnamese restaurant in the main city centre, upstairs in one of the old buildings, columns of white colonnades facing the street. We caught up with each other's lives, quick snap shots of passing lives. But it wasn't so much about our passing lives that we wanted to know, but our past life.

She told me about Peter, back when she was at school, the haunting that was always between us.

"Now that I'm a teacher, I realise that he should have known better. He was my teacher, he should have said no."

Clio looked at me with her huge dark eyes, her mouth serious.

"I was too young, we were both so young back then."

4. Telemarketing scene. Listen to your beta readers, there. It wasn't funny for me, at all.

Here's one of my comedy scenes (context, an author squabbling with his characters - this was an entry in the National Nude Day comp a couple of years ago):

Ella might be on to something, and I've not written her into anything yet, so this could work. Alex will gave to grow up a bit though, because Ella's in her early thirties and knows what she likes and gets what she wants. She won't want a mere boy, just turned eighteen. Our Ella will want someone who's learned a thing or two about women, or at least knows what foreplay actually means. It's not counting to four and diving straight down.

She's warming to her theme, and I think she might have something going here.

"I can be the wild and free hippy girl, the greenie environmentalist nature girl, and the free spirited earth witch, all rolled into one. It's probably best if I have a shack back in the dunes somewhere, at the end of a long road a long way from town. I can run across the dunes after a long day doing something - you're the writer, you'll have to figure that bit out - and see the golden Adonis lying on the sand...."

"Oh, I get it," says Alex, "I'm going to be the one who gets sand up his ass and in his eyes, while you go down on my cock, which of course has hardened nicely as it swings while I walk up from the surf. And because the sun is so gloriously warm, I've taken my shaft and am idly stroking it."

"Hey, nature boy, if you're gonna get naked for this damn story, you gotta get naked. If you're on a beach, where the fuck do you think the sand is going to go? I thought of it first, so why should I get the sand all through my ass and pussy?"

She looked at Alex with a wry smile on her face, her dark eyes sparkling with glee.

"I mean, I am assuming that you will be so hot that I'll be dripping wet at the sight of your hard cock with its big purple-red head, and if my cooze is all wet, there's no way it's going anywhere near sand."

"Fucking women, always want it their way. Boss, can you write us a really big towel or a blanket?"

Not really, because you'll have to walk 45 minutes down the beach to get away from the families and the kiddies: a) you'd have to carry it all the way down the beach and you're a lazy shit, and b) how would you know you'd need a big towel? You wouldn't meet Ella until she came over the dunes.

You'll want me to write you a tent and a camel next. Who do you think you are? Lawrence of fucking Arabia?

"Fuck. Can you at least write me a nine inch and really thick cock so the bitch gags on it? If I've gotta put up with sand up my ass, she should have to stretch her lips and do some work for a change. Fucking hippy chicks, swanning about in tie-die blouses and wrap around skirts."

"No, it's nude day, remember. I'll be coming over the dunes in all my dusky, naked glory. Besides, you can do naked, the boss needs me to do nude. You need a set of glorious curves to do nude, with just a tiny pair of ear rings." Ella stopped, posed, and pondered. "Hey, maybe I could have a belly piercing, or even better, labia rings. I've always wanted some of those."

No, there are several problems here. First, I can't write a niner for Alex. I have to start with what he's got because that's all I know. What's wrong with his eight anyway? It's a couple over the Kinsey average (remembering that old Alf was out with his ruler in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and things might have changed since then, what with better diets and folk growing taller nowadays), and has made the eyes of several women light up. Several of my women, too.

And that's about where the wheels fell off my go cart...
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[8letters]

My reply to electricblue66

Thanks for the feedback. It must have taken a lot of time to put it together. And though we have very different points of views on writing, you had a number of points that were persuasive. I wish you had posted it to the thread.

Small breasts - I guess I'm in a different place than most people. To me, big breasts are so common in movies and stories that it felt quite daring to go with a FMC who is flat-chested. I was stuck in Target the other day and from where I was sitting, the main thing to look at was the cardboard holder for the latest Power Rangers movie. The side I was looking at was a female power ranger whose power ranger outfit obviously swelled the size of her tits. To me, the artwork was clearly designed to feature her bust as nothing else would catch the eye. A Power Rangers isn't what I'd watch to check out women with big tits, but someone apparently decided that that was the best way to market it.

Anyway, I don't know well anyone who is flat-chested. I made the assumption that women who are flat-chested often feel inadequate because their front is so far from the Hollywood ideal. The story was written from that point of view.

Humor - The more experience I get as a writer, the more I think a few one-liners are good but anything beyond that is too risky as it is hard to write something that everyone finds funny. You didn't find what I wrote funny. I didn't find what you wrote funny.

 

[8letters]

Another PM from electricblue66 posted with his permission:
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Feedback and discussion is hard to get going when you want it (but comes in floods when you don't want it!), and I see with your blog and your background notes and so on that you're really trying to get some additional interest in this aspect of writing. Maybe a civilised discussion between two writers with diametrically opposite styles and approaches might encourage others to contribute.

I agree comedy is very hard and best kept to a minimum. My extract is from my only competition entry two years back, which was actually very well received, with several commenters saying well done, a rare piece of "funny writing" that actually made them laugh - some folk "got it". Your sense of humour and mine are also quite opposite, so it didn't surprise me at all that you thought meh.

Your reader views and numbers are amazing by the way - so there's audiences and audiences, that's for sure. My most personal story here has only been read by 3k5, but for me, they are the most important 3k5 in the world, because they wanted to read every single word, right through to the end (my other extracts are from different sections of that story (a four parter).

The hands down sexiest women I have ever known, thinking about it, have all, without exception, been tall, slim, with virtually no breasts. I find them to be way hotter than big boobed girls. My own personal taste seems to be shorter slim women 5'4" - 5'6", if my history is anything to go by (which i assume it is!)
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[AwkwardMD]

8 Lit pages takes a long time!

I got to this sooner than I thought I would!

I like Michelle. I said that before. In addition to coming off as a confident young woman, she’s very likable. The story is very ‘on the nose’ about the size of her chest, and while I may or may not have rolled my eyes about having that described after the umpteenth time, it doesn’t change the fact that she came across as very attractive. I can completely identify with waking up one day to find yourself in an abusive relationship. There’s a sick feeling there when you see both sides of the person you’re with; the part you love and maybe will always love, and the ugly side that wants to change you one step at a time.

I liked how you worked her description in. In the second bedroom scene, Chris describes on the parts of her that a brother would typically acknowledge. Pretty, bright eyes, long lashes. Nose. It’s Michelle who points out her other attributes for the reader, and that’s refreshing.

I really liked how aware Michelle was of herself, and the things that had been done to her. That presented a bit of a problem for me later when she would plead with Chris to touch her to make her feel better about herself, but it wasn’t a big sticking point. It just felt… fan-service-y. It felt like “I haven’t written a sex scene in a few thousand words. How can I make something happen right here?”

Michelle is a wonderful character who has conflicting emotions, guilt, an arc of growth, and a really good brother. She seems especially amazing because...

***

I don’t like Chris as a character. Chris seems to have no personality. He feels like an empty vessel for the plot to drive around. “Chris, hold my ass to make me feel better.” Ok. “Don’t go beat up Jared.” Ok. “Here Chris, have some naked pictures of your sister.” Ok. “Please fuck me.” Ok. There’s some narrative telling us about how he has anxiety over these different issues, but that’s all it is. Telling. On like the 6th page Chris cries, and we get like 1 sentence worth of depth for him.

The first time (and maybe only time?) that Chris does something proactive is the first Frigid check. That happens on the 4th Lit page. We’re, what, 10,000 words into the story at that point? He should want things. All humans want things. Most of the time, Chris seems merely present as the story unfolds around him.

Chris is clearly a good guy and an excellent brother, for sure, but he leaves so little impression. It almost feels like, when you’re ‘telling’ us about the things he does, you’re describing a generous, helpful guy. When you’re ‘narrating’ his actions and transcribing his dialogue, he’s blockish and stiff.

There’s hints that Chris is seeking comfort in Michelle as a balm to get over Gina, but it’s… it’s an underserved plot point. It needed more addressing. I would have loved this story WAY more if there was more of a mutual thing between Chris and Michelle in terms of motivation. Chris SHOULD be in pain, by all accounts, but you only really paid lip service to that break-up.

***

The plot of Comforting My Sister works amazingly at the higher levels. It’s a great way to bring siblings together. You created a really hateable antagonist in Jared, along with parents that were disaffected and distant. It feels like it’s Chris and Michelle against the world, and that’s awesome.

Coming down a little bit more, the plot still works great. The establishment of the conflict (I broke up with Jared). Michelle miserably sorting out how to get through the week first, and then later things like ‘I need a car to get around’. Very realistic, and there’s joy in realism with a plot like this. I loved how needing a car led to the trip to see the buyer which further tied into Chris’ professed enjoyment of small breasted women not needing to wear a bra. The different plot threads are woven together very neatly. It’s impressive. Jared even seems to go through the five stages of grief, over the breakup, in the course of the story, and that’s fantastic plotting. The scenes move nicely in terms of skipping ahead in time to the next important moment that the reader should be present for.

I even swear that early in the story, Chris only ever calls them ‘boobs’, kind of playfully keeping the sexuality of the small sacs of fat at a distance, and it’s Michelle who uses the more vulgar ‘tits’. It’s not until Chris gets more explicit with her that he sees her and her body more viscerally. That’s good stuff.

***

Where the plot falls apart for me is in the execution, and largely what I mean is the way the narrative is interspersed with the dialogue. It feels like this.

Narration narration narration.

Dialogue.

Response.

Admission.

Narration narration narration narration narration narration.

Follow up.

Question.

Narration narration narration.

”I broke up with Jared today.”

Jared had been Michelle’s boyfriend for the last year and a half. He was twenty-two, which was two years older than me and four years older than her. He was a big guy and worked as a bouncer at a bar. Nice, very protective of Michelle.

”I’m sorry to hear it. What brought on the break up?”

“I don’t want to discuss it.”

“Okay.”

Michelle didn’t leave and she didn’t say anything else. I felt like she wanted to be comforted. I reached out my right hand and stroked her back.

The different parts are all discrete. Divided up. I know that taking a blurb out of context can be unfair, but compare that with this.

“Kit?”

I nearly trip over my own two feet when I try to come to a stop in the center of the lobby, and my head whirls back and to the right. “Um… ”

“Do you remember me?”

“Ummm…” Of course I remember you, Professor. I only masturbated to the thought of you remembering me after every class for an entire semester. Play it cool. Play it cool. It’s not like he doesn’t feature in just about every fantasy I have. Play it cool. “Didn’t I…” I blink and nibble on my lower lip, and he smiles. God, he’s gorgeous when he smiles. “Didn’t I have you... What class of yours did I take?”

“You were in my Advanced Poetry-”

“-and Creative Short Fiction!” I say, finishing with him. I squint, really trying to sell it. “Professor… Ayers!” He nods as he smiles. His beard is a little more filled in now, which I kind of want to reach up and grab. I nervously tuck my hair back behind my ear and return the smile. “I didn’t know you worked out, Professor.”

Maybe the biggest lie I’ve ever told.

“Well, I try to keep in shape.”

I can’t stop twisting. My whole torso keeps turning back and forth. He’s going to notice, but I can’t stop. There’s so much energy bursting out of me right now. I must look like I’m dancing. “Well... good for you, Professor.”

“Please. Call me Calvin.”

“Ok,” I say, hoping to all that is holy that I’ve kept my voice from quivering. “Calvin.” God, he’s gotta be like 6’2”. Even standing a few feet away, I feel like I’m looking straight up at him. I grab the strap to my bag with both hands to give them something to squeeze.

The dialogue and the narration are intertwined with each other, supporting each other and reinforcing each other, in addition to an inner monologue and character descriptions. You’re hitting all the same notes I am, but you’re doing them one at a time and in chunks. It’s choppier.

***
Show Don’t Tell.

In just the opening scene;
You’re telling us about how he typically lays in bed.
You’re telling us how Michelle is upset. (“I could tell she was upset.”)
You’re telling us about how her use of ‘Chris’ was odd.
You’re telling us about Jared, and how long he and Michelle had been together.
You’re telling us how old Jared is, and then about the relationship of age between Jared and Chris.
The opening scene is info dump after info dump. All about Chris’ schedule, and Michelle’s schedule, and Jared’s schedule. There are ways to work this information in more slowly. The info dumps get better as the story goes on, but you never quite get away from them.

One of the next big steps for you is to learn to trust your readers. You don’t have to spell everything out. I know that I experiment with the extreme opposite end of this, but the bulk of my work tries to find that middle ground where things are explicitly described but in due time.

***

The last thing I want to talk about is descriptive redundancy. The following is from the very last page.

I could feel Michelle's juices dripping down on me, coating my crotch area. I could smell her arousal. I kept my eyes on her tits as they slightly bounced up and down in front of me.

When I read this, I just wanted to grab my red pen and mark up my screen.

I could feel Michelle’s juices dripping down, coating me. I could smell her. I kept my eyes on her tits as they bounced.

Less is more, and it’s less repetitive that way. In first person, literally everything that’s happening in the story is either in front of you, coming down on you, near you, beneath you, on you, inside of you, or some variation on the narrator's vicinity. That can be implied, and will be understood by your reader.

 

[AwkwardMD]

There were two scenes in the story that I probably should have cut:
* The first is the telemarketer scene. One of my beta-readers made the point that it wasn't erotic and it didn't further the plot. But I had thought it was so funny and I had loved writing it to much to yank it from the story. Should I have cut it out?
* The other scene is the day with Jared. In the first draft, Michelle and Christoper dealing with Jared by hoping he goes away. I knew the long scene with Jared was non-erotic and didn't really advance the story. But I wanted to have something so that Jared was dealt with and that was I came up with. What would have worked better? The crowd pleaser would have been to have something like the end of "Back to the Future" - Christopher comes across Jared harrassing Michelle, he takes Jared out with one punch and Jared runs off with his tail between his legs. That's the typical solution to domestic abuse in movies and to portray violence as the solution to violence just offends me

Second thing first. The scene with Jared was, I think, just about the best way to handle it, although it made my eye twitch that you did it in a flashback. It gave good closure to put Jared away as a threat, and allow the reader to simply focus on the main pairing of Michelle and Chris. It was maybe a bit lengthy, and could have been pared down a bit. As with other sections, the execution fell a little short of the concept, but on the whole I think the story is better with it.

The telemarketer scene is... I'm not sure. I smiled. I didn't laugh, but I smiled. It was light-hearted. I didn't hate it, and it's ok to have non-erotic scenes that show that your characters have more platonic/friendly chemistry. It's important that people in relationships have similar senses of humor, or things they can share a moment over. This scene achieves that, though I don't think that was the intended purpose.

Humor is not easy to add out of nowhere. It requires setup. It requires the right kind of characters. It requires the right kind of relationship between the characters. It's one thing to add a joke, but to add humor is more complex than it appears.


The first half of the first page, of the following link, is an isolated section requiring no previous knowledge and introducing a new character to one of my longer stories. Read down until it talks about Ivy striding out into muddy streets, and try to be open to the idea that it's funny. If you go in thinking "This isn't going to be funny. I'm going to hate this," then you probably will.
https://www.literotica.com/s/terrible-company-ch-04

 

[AwkwardMD]

One more note, as i've been thinking about it a lot.

I think the big difference between Chris and Michelle, for me, is perspective. You didn't write any of this from Michelle's POV (and good on you for not head hopping), so you were forced to show her through her actions and words. By necessity, she comes across at a nice pace.

Chris, meanwhile, as the POV character, doesn't get the same treatment. It's not that he's less well planned out than Michelle, or thinner by design, but being in his head makes it easier to just tell us about him rather than having him be the sum of his actions.

I had to think about this a lot to come to this theory.

 

[8letters]

Thanks AwkwardMD for taking the time to read my story and provide me the feedback. You obviously took a lot of time thinking about it and writing it. It was far more positive than I expected given the disagreements we've had on writing.

I normally quote the feedback and then respond to it, but your feedback was so extensive that I don't think that will work well here. Instead, I'm going to make some bullet points and ramble on various topics that your feedback made me make think about.

* Did I go on too much about Michelle's tits? The most recent comment on this story has "This flat chested obsession is creepy. Are you trying to tell us this high school girl looks like a little (young) girl? Mention it once, the image is in my head, I don't need to be told over and over she has no tits." The main male character Josh in Cycling Weekends with Sis is 5'6". I talk several times about how being that short impacts his life. What's the point of having an usually short MMC if I don't explore what his life is like? I've gotten 99 comments on that story and not one mentions that I went on too much about Josh being short. What's the point of having a flat-chested FMC if I don't explore what her life is like? Did I get any of the details wrong? Why wouldn't someone who's being abusive towards her attack her for being flat-chested, giving her a negative body image? Why wouldn't Christopher in trying to convince Michelle that's she attractive discuss that being flat-chested is just fine?

* I'm glad you liked Michelle. When I write a story, I think first about the plot and particular story scenes and I let the the characters' personalities to flow from that. I wanted Michelle to come across more strongly than that and from your feedback, I succeed

* I find it interesting that you don't like Christopher as to me, he has almost the same personality as Michelle. Both of them are "put one foot in front of the other" people. His life doesn't suck like Michelle's, but it’s a huge grind. There's no joy in his life but he's not the type to piss and moan. He's satisfied that the grinding has positioned him to hopefully escape to a better life at the university. He’s going to be less interesting than Michelle because Michelle is the one making decisions in the story and he’s reacting to those. He eventually finds joy and meaning in his life through Michelle

* Thanks for all the kind words about the plot

* On execution, I think a lot of it is difference in style. Again, I'm very plot and scene focused. In the excerpt you pulled out of my story, I felt there was power in its simplicity - Michelle is in obvious pain about the break up but isn't up to discussing it. When I read your excerpt, I felt you successfully captured the stream of consciousness thoughts of the character but it made the character seem immature and flighty

* On the show vs tell in the opening scene, how does one show how old Jared is and how long he’s been dating Michelle?

* On trusting my readers, I think this a huge difference in philosophy. To use programming terms, a reader has a limited stack. Unanswered questions get pushed on to that stack and when they are answered, they get popped off. I want that stack to be just a few key items at any one time. In the first scene, the question I want on my reader’s stack is “What’s going on with Michelle because of the break up?” As the story goes on, the stack never gets too big and at the end, it is empty. When I read “The Favor”, I felt you kept pushing things on the stack. So much that after I while I couldn’t keep track of all of the unanswered questions. At some point, I accepted that you just weren’t going to answer them. To me, that’s cheating. I stopped caring about the plot twists because I realized that they’d never be explained. I’m not saying my writing philosophy is right and yours is wrong. I’m saying that I’m never going to write like you because that type of writing doesn’t appeal to me

* On descriptive redundancy, I plead guilty. Numerous people have complained about it. I just don’t see the redundancy when I read my writing

 

[AwkwardMD]

* Did I go on too much about Michelle's tits? The most recent comment on this story has "This flat chested obsession is creepy. Are you trying to tell us this high school girl looks like a little (young) girl? Mention it once, the image is in my head, I don't need to be told over and over she has no tits." The main male character Josh in Cycling Weekends with Sis is 5'6". I talk several times about how being that short impacts his life. What's the point of having an usually short MMC if I don't explore what his life is like? I've gotten 99 comments on that story and not one mentions that I went on too much about Josh being short. What's the point of having a flat-chested FMC if I don't explore what her life is like? Did I get any of the details wrong? Why wouldn't someone who's being abusive towards her attack her for being flat-chested, giving her a negative body image? Why wouldn't Christopher in trying to convince Michelle that's she attractive discuss that being flat-chested is just fine?

It's a very slim margin between saturation and over-saturation. I feel like, if you were to take out every fifth descriptive reference to breast size, assuming that doesn't ruin a sentence or cause an entire conversation to become nonsense, you'd be in good shape. If 90 mentions of breast size in a story this long is just right, hypothetically, Comforting my Sister is at like 100 mentions.

* I'm glad you liked Michelle. When I write a story, I think first about the plot and particular story scenes and I let the the characters' personalities to flow from that. I wanted Michelle to come across more strongly than that and from your feedback, I succeed

You should be proud of her. She's an excellent character.

* I find it interesting that you don't like Christopher as to me, he has almost the same personality as Michelle. Both of them are "put one foot in front of the other" people. His life doesn't suck like Michelle's, but it’s a huge grind. There's no joy in his life but he's not the type to piss and moan. He's satisfied that the grinding has positioned him to hopefully escape to a better life at the university. He’s going to be less interesting than Michelle because Michelle is the one making decisions in the story and he’s reacting to those. He eventually finds joy and meaning in his life through Michelle.

I can see how Chris' stoic personality is a feature and not a bug, but I guess that stood out more compared to Michelle.

* On execution, I think a lot of it is difference in style. Again, I'm very plot and scene focused. In the excerpt you pulled out of my story, I felt there was power in its simplicity - Michelle is in obvious pain about the break up but isn't up to discussing it. When I read your excerpt, I felt you successfully captured the stream of consciousness thoughts of the character but it made the character seem immature and flighty

It is simple, and simple can be VERY powerful, but it also can come across like Ben Stein is doing the reading. Be conscious of not underselling your emotionally heavy moments.

Also, yes. In my excerpt, that character is almost completely overwhelmed by the college professor she has a crush on and she can't stop acting like a little girl. But I didn't explain that she was acting like a little girl, I described a little girl. It's a subtle difference.

* On the show vs tell in the opening scene, how does one show how old Jared is and how long he’s been dating Michelle?

Jared's age is unimportant.

"It feels like the last three years have been a complete waste," Michelle sighed.

* On trusting my readers, I think this a huge difference in philosophy. To use programming terms, a reader has a limited stack. Unanswered questions get pushed on to that stack and when they are answered, they get popped off. I want that stack to be just a few key items at any one time. In the first scene, the question I want on my reader’s stack is “What’s going on with Michelle because of the break up?” As the story goes on, the stack never gets too big and at the end, it is empty. When I read “The Favor”, I felt you kept pushing things on the stack. So much that after I while I couldn’t keep track of all of the unanswered questions. At some point, I accepted that you just weren’t going to answer them. To me, that’s cheating. I stopped caring about the plot twists because I realized that they’d never be explained. I’m not saying my writing philosophy is right and yours is wrong. I’m saying that I’m never going to write like you because that type of writing doesn’t appeal to me.

Let's not get too far away from the context. The context here is "is it important to explain how Chris stacks his pillows on the bed, or can the reader just imagine someone sitting upright under some sheets?" "Is it important to explain Chris vs Christopher, right now in the middle of a heavy scene about Michelle's emotional state, or can that wait until the first time Dad calls him Christopher?"

Thr Favor, and What Are Friends For, are VERY experimental in terms of how little I can describe. They are bleeding edge prototypes. Proof of concept. They don't work at all as shining writing examples, and I would never put thrm forward as models to be emulated by anyone else. I'm proud of them, but I'm not under the illusion that they are my best work.

 

[AwkwardMD]

The Favor and What Are Friends For are prototype planes with an experimental wing design. While it's amazing that they can fly at all, one certainly does not go out and redesign the Boeing 747 based on a few test flights. By the same token, though, one should not poo-poo the experimental plane because you can't already put 400-600 passengers on it.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Minor correction

"It feels like the last three years have been a complete waste," Michelle sighed.

"I can't believe you two were together that long."

 

[8letters]

You gave me feedback, I commented on your feedback and then you replied to my comment. I was going to stop there. You did me a favor so I was going to let you have the last word.

However, you've posted two more replies after your last reply. Do you want me to reply to your reply?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Sure!

 

[8letters]

It's a very slim margin between saturation and over-saturation. I feel like, if you were to take out every fifth descriptive reference to breast size, assuming that doesn't ruin a sentence or cause an entire conversation to become nonsense, you'd be in good shape. If 90 mentions of breast size in a story this long is just right, hypothetically, Comforting my Sister is at like 100 mentions.

Sounds reasonable.

Jared's age is unimportant.

I couldn't disagree more. I spent a lot of time thinking about how old Jared should be. I wanted him to be 20, but I think you have to be at least 21 to work in a bar.

Jared does a lot of stupid and mean things, but I'd envisioned him as doing those things out of ignorance and pain (Michelle leaving him hurt him badly). It doesn't help that all of his friends support him in being abusive towards Michelle. But at the end of the day with Christopher, he begins to realize that if he wants to wind up with a Michelle instead of a Terry, he needs to change how he treats women. Jared is also financially struggling, but a lot of people struggle financially at 22. When Michelle talks about going back to Jared, Christopher can understand why she would do it.

Now, if Jared is 42, the implications are completely different. I find the idea of a 42-year-old man dating an 18-year-old creepy as hell. It's hard for me to imagine a 42-year-old changing much. And if I had a 18-year-iold sister who was thinking about going back to an 42-year-old, I'd be adamant against it.

"It feels like the last three years have been a complete waste," Michelle sighed.

Which wouldn't work. If Michelle says that, then she should be ready to discuss why she broke up with Jared. And she doesn't think her dating with Jared was a waste. She's still in love with him at that point, though she realizes that she has to end it.

Let's not get too far away from the context. The context here is "is it important to explain how Chris stacks his pillows on the bed, or can the reader just imagine someone sitting upright under some sheets?"

Ummm. I obviously thought yes. Christopher is fine with stroking Michelle's back for a very long time. Tough for me to picture how he does that if he doesn't have something supporting his own. No pillow stack and Christopher tells Michelle "See ya" after five minutes.

"Is it important to explain Chris vs Christopher, right now in the middle of a heavy scene about Michelle's emotional state, or can that wait until the first time Dad calls him Christopher?"

The fact that she calls him "Chris" and the ensuing Chris/Christopher establishes that something is very wrong before Michelle starts talking to him.

Did I have more narrative summary in the opening scene than I'd like? Yes. But I thought the reader had to know some of those facts for parts of the scene to make sense. Some of it I put in there because once I told fact A, it made sense to include facts B and C. And narrative summary is the most efficient way of sharing information. I could have had Christopher discuss his schedule with Michelle but (a) that would have drug out the sharing of boring but necessary information and (b) Michelle should have already had an excellent idea of his and her schedules.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I couldn't disagree more. I spent a lot of time thinking about how old Jared should be. I wanted him to be 20, but I think you have to be at least 21 to work in a bar.

Jared does a lot of stupid and mean things, but I'd envisioned him as doing those things out of ignorance and pain (Michelle leaving him hurt him badly). It doesn't help that all of his friends support him in being abusive towards Michelle. But at the end of the day with Christopher, he begins to realize that if he wants to wind up with a Michelle instead of a Terry, he needs to change how he treats women. Jared is also financially struggling, but a lot of people struggle financially at 22. When Michelle talks about going back to Jared, Christopher can understand why she would do it.

Now, if Jared is 42, the implications are completely different. I find the idea of a 42-year-old man dating an 18-year-old creepy as hell. It's hard for me to imagine a 42-year-old changing much. And if I had a 18-year-iold sister who was thinking about going back to an 42-year-old, I'd be adamant against it.

i didn't mean to imply that the work you did on your characters was irrelevant. Backstory and character relationships are super important. I only meant that in general, if you describe two people dating with no other info, the assumption will be that they are of similar age, or within a few years of each other.

Which wouldn't work. If Michelle says that, then she should be ready to discuss why she broke up with Jared. And she doesn't think her dating with Jared was a waste. She's still in love with him at that point, though she realizes that she has to end it.

There are an infinite variety of alternate solutions.

"Who's going to buy you beer now?"

"Chris!" she shouted, glaring at me.

"I'm sorry! I'm sorry."

"Will you just shut up and listen?"

"I will," I said, holding up my hands. "I promise."

Ummm. I obviously thought yes. Christopher is fine with stroking Michelle's back for a very long time. Tough for me to picture how he does that if he doesn't have something supporting his own. No pillow stack and Christopher tells Michelle "See ya" after five minutes.

I will cede that in real life, muscles get tired, but the willful suspension of disbelief on the part of a reader is usually strong enough to allow a back rub to go on without a lot of quibbling on the kinesiological improbability of it.

The fact that she calls him "Chris" and the ensuing Chris/Christopher establishes that something is very wrong before Michelle starts talking to him.

"You never call me Chris."

She lifted her head momentarily, like she was going to say something, but immediately looked back down. She just continued to push the corner of my blanket around. Eventually, she said, "I broke up with Jared today."

Did I have more narrative summary in the opening scene than I'd like? Yes. But I thought the reader had to know some of those facts for parts of the scene to make sense. Some of it I put in there because once I told fact A, it made sense to include facts B and C. And narrative summary is the most efficient way of sharing information. I could have had Christopher discuss his schedule with Michelle but (a) that would have drug out the sharing of boring but necessary information and (b) Michelle should have already had an excellent idea of his and her schedules.

You're absolutely right. Some stories require a lot of information up front. I've got one with almost an entire lit page of a timeline. It's suuuuuch an info dump, but there's just no way around how much information needs to be conveyed.

That being said, there are no absolutes here. I'm not arguing that info dumps must be eliminated. Merely reduced in the same way as the descriptions of Michelle's breast size. One or two fewer clusters of telling and not showing, and the whole scene comes together.

EDIT: that last part comes off more "It would be better if you write more like me" than I'd intended. The point I was trying to make was that there are other options.

 

[hadruprider]

You've had a lot of detailed comment from Electric and Awkward, most of which I agree with, and I think they both read your story and thought about it much more carefully than I did.

But a brief response to your reply:
1. OK maybe I was a bit unfair in expecting novelty and surprise from an incest story. But maybe there could have been more twists. Eg her Dad could have found out about her sleeping in her brother's bed and blackmailed her into sleeping with him instead of Chris!

2. The best sex scenes are the intermediate ones, the frigid checks. The actual fuck at the end was not so great imho.

3. With Jared, it was the change from arrogant and aggressive to meek and apologetic that didnt convince me.

 

[ElectricBlue]

On descriptive redundancy, I plead guilty. Numerous people have complained about it. I just don’t see the redundancy when I read my writing

I run word searches on my "known" overused conjunctives (then, and, but, yet, so) - scrub the hell out of them); and then I usually "know" or sense when I might be working another word too hard - run another word search, and so on. After a while, the known offenders start to jump off the page and I spot them early on.

I generally edit as I go - before I write, I read over the previous 500 words or so, tweaking and editing; which not only helps continuity and mood, but also allows me to see the redundancies. It's almost an unconscious thing now - once it was pointed out, I saw it a lot more.

In your story, 8letters, it was one of the things that ground me down - I was pulled up on six uses of "bright" in as many paragraphs, I completely lost count of your "he stroked her back", as an example.


I will say, reading these exchanges between you both, 8letters and MD, is fascinating. Both of you are so much more structured In terms of writing practices and approaches than I will ever be (I'm lazy, I just try to activate my stream consciousness, find the "go" button, and then just try to keep up). It really illustrates the differences between us, doesn't it!

For example, MD mentions a long (future) history list at the beginning of one of her stories as being vital to the story. It was fun to read, very inventive, very sci-fi future world nerd stuff, channelling a bit of Asimov, Arthur C Clarke et.al. Was it essential to the plot? Not really, the same future place in history could have been established in other, simpler ways (I'm thinking AI, some of China Mieville, most steam punk, as examples).

Olaf Stapledon in "Last and First Men" did a similar thing, he at one point had the future of humanity down to five people in South America somewhere. I read MDs list yesterday and can't recall any of it (because I didn't need all of that detail to establish, OK, future, gender imbalance, sex bots, trans gender stuff - right, got it, move into story now, I'll pick the rest up as I go along) - whereas I read Olaf what, 40 plus years ago, and still recall his party of five.

So yes, I trust my readers, I trust their imaginations to suspend disbelief - but i have no idea whether my words conjure "my" vision of my world in their minds. I doubt it. Both of you are huge evidence to me that what is vital to one person is completely irrelevant to another; and me likewise to you.

One thing I did want to ask, 8letters, is do you have brothers and sisters or kids? One thing that didn't work for me was your characters only ever using their whole names (plus the Chris Christopher thing which I do get 100%). Siblings in my experience have a whole set of pet names, nick names, friendly names, you're being a tool names for each other - every now and then, but rarely, do they actually use their real names. Just a thing, knowing my own siblings, other families, my own kids. I comment now only because I'm writing something in which a childhood pet name becomes a signifier for events. It works now as a reader short cut. Just a thought, it might add veracity to your story - I dunno, Mik, Micks, Shells, Shellie, something like that.

 

[8letters]

I run word searches on my "known" overused conjunctives (then, and, but, yet, so) - scrub the hell out of them); and then I usually "know" or sense when I might be working another word too hard - run another word search, and so on. After a while, the known offenders start to jump off the page and I spot them early on.

I generally edit as I go - before I write, I read over the previous 500 words or so, tweaking and editing; which not only helps continuity and mood, but also allows me to see the redundancies. It's almost an unconscious thing now - once it was pointed out, I saw it a lot more.

I have my own list of problem words. I review my stories many times. I version a story when ever I start an editing pass in case in the future I want to restore something I cut out. "Comforting My Little Sister" has eight different versions (version one is only a third of the story).

In your story, 8letters, it was one of the things that ground me down - I was pulled up on six uses of "bright" in as many paragraphs,

Huh? I found three uses.

Someone complained that I used "nice" too much and I added to my list of problem words. One word I check for is "check", as I tend to use it in place of "cheek".

One thing I did want to ask, 8letters, is do you have brothers and sisters or kids?

A brother

One thing that didn't work for me was your characters only ever using their whole names (plus the Chris Christopher thing which I do get 100%). Siblings in my experience have a whole set of pet names, nick names, friendly names, you're being a tool names for each other - every now and then, but rarely, do they actually use their real names. Just a thing, knowing my own siblings, other families, my own kids. I comment now only because I'm writing something in which a childhood pet name becomes a signifier for events. It works now as a reader short cut. Just a thought, it might add veracity to your story - I dunno, Mik, Micks, Shells, Shellie, something like that.

Interestingly enough, the story I have out for beta-read and the story I'll probably finish next have a nickname for the MMC. That being said, my feeling is that nicknames for boys are going away. When parents name their kid "Nicholas" or "Christopher" now days, they call them "Nicholas" or "Christopher". Nicknames that end in "y" like "Billy" or "Tommy" are dead. Not sure about girls.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Huh? I found three uses.

Rope and Veil is the only story I've resubmitted with edits - what's up now is post Naoko Smith's review, also includes edits following input from people with far better knowledge of disabilities than I (PWD themselves).

Interestingly enough, the story I have out for beta-read and the story I'll probably finish next have a nickname for the MMC. That being said, my feeling is that nicknames for boys are going away. When parents name their kid "Nicholas" or "Christopher" now days, they call them "Nicholas" or "Christopher". Nicknames that end in "y" like "Billy" or "Tommy" are dead. Not sure about girls.

Parents do, yes, siblings don't (except when they are talking about the sibling to someone else). I never hear my kids call each other real names,not ever. It's either their childhood nick name or the family pet name - and they're both adults now.

You don't know Australia, mate. Any long name will be shortened and either "o" or "y" added. Any short name will almost automatically get extended, ditto.

 

[8letters]

Rope and Veil is the only story I've resubmitted with edits - what's up now is post Naoko Smith's review, also includes edits following input from people with far better knowledge of disabilities than I (PWD themselves).

I guess I wasn't clear. I have eight versions of "Comforting My Little Sister" and the last one was what was published. I do submit revised versions of stories, but haven't with "Comforting My Little Sister".

Parents do, yes, siblings don't (except when they are talking about the sibling to someone else). I never hear my kids call each other real names,not ever. It's either their childhood nick name or the family pet name - and they're both adults now.

You don't know Australia, mate. Any long name will be shortened and either "o" or "y" added. Any short name will almost automatically get extended, ditto.

Obviously, my experience is limited to the US.

What I find odd is incest stories where the main characters constantly call each other "Big Bro", "Big Sis", "Little Bro" and "Little Sis". If Jane is John's little sister, then saying "Jane" implies "Little Sis".