Feedback novice, green and scared.

[alexandraaah]

Dillinger emailed me a link to the #1 poem thread, thinking I'd find the current debate interesting. I did, and I emailed him back this response. I'm interested in perhaps joining the poetry community here and getting a feel for how it works. Below is my response to his email. I decided to combat my literotica poetry stage fright and just plop my email response here as well. I'd like to know if anyone had similar concerns, how to deal with them or if I should just rip the band aid off quickly. Hope this is threadworthy; please share your thoughts.


I'm on both sides of this fence. Actually, I'm literally on the fence as I think both sides are too extreme for my point of view. I dunno, literotica is a tough crowd; tough and honest. Now, those aren't inherently bad qualities it's just that I have an ego and I don't know if I could handle a poem of mine being raked over the coals. I can handle feedback, criticism even. However, there are times when I write something that I really like and think is solid; for that it would be difficult to accept negative feedback, even constructive feedback as I don't want to negotiate whether or not I should change something I thought was good. I don't want to second guess myself. This sounds weak, it just might be. Perhaps I'm just not as evolved a poet or person, I just know what will keep me thinking and even perseverating when I've got too much homework to do! There was a line in pleasureau's poem that was criticized---something was "filled with flush" and the critic said, "something can be flushed, not filled with flush" well, i saw that as imagery, that the object was flushed, like my cheeks after drinking whiskey! I rather liked that imagery. I don't think poetry needs to "make sense" to the masses. I also don't think it's purely from the heart. It's everything...a word salad for lack of anything original to call it. I won't attempt to further define how I see poetry but to say that it can be visceral which lends itself to losing our own perspective. Okay, I suppose that is where I would agree that we need critics. Well, suffice to say that I've gone in a circle about this yet continue to be unsure of submitting my own work. Admittedly, my erotic stories are drivel, mere masturbatory material which is just how I like them. However, in my actual writing life I'm more serious and certainly more accomplished. I hate to admit it but when I see a story of mine, even masturbatory drivel, get a 5 vote I get kind of excited, additionally when it goes down down down from there as it often does, I think "huh?" Bleh. I think that's lame but it's honest.
Alexandra

 

[Whispersecret]

There was a line in pleasureau's poem that was criticized---something was "filled with flush" and the critic said, "something can be flushed, not filled with flush" well, i saw that as imagery, that the object was flushed, like my cheeks after drinking whiskey! I rather liked that imagery.

*waves her hand* That would be me.

Sure, I understood what pleasureu meant, and I saw the image. I just think it was worded incorrectly. I saw a few typos in that poem that made me wonder if it was looked over carefully.

Off the top of my head I can think of two things that will make an image sing to me. 1) It needs to be a fresh image (as opposed to cliche.) 2) It needs to be worded well. To me, something is worded well if it sounds good, literally. If the sounds go together like, well, POETRY. LOL. If the carefully chosen words are just spot-on, and I get that "My God, that poet just nailed that idea with the minimum of perfect words" feeling. Once in a while, I'll admit, an image can affect me if it touches some unique chord in my personal life, but really, it still has to struggle through my cliche and word choice filters, but maybe just not as hard as other not-so-personal images do.

I spent an hour analyzing and writing my comments for pleasureu's poem. I usually do that because I believe what I do helps me and others learn. I think it keeps this community of poets (and wannabe's) active. I hope it helps the poet see at least one detailed viewpoint other than their own. I also hope that other poets will return the favor.

This time, I'm not sure what my motives were, to be honest. I certainly don't expect pleasureu to acknowledge what I did. I'm sure he'll take it as an affront that I'd dare to point out any flaws in his expression of love and emotion. I did my best to be objective, but perhaps my motive was less so than my commentary.

I never expect the poet to completely agree. I won't lie and say I'm not pleased when they do agree. But I'm just as happy if they come back and say, "I like it my way. Here's why." At least I know then that they thought about what I said and I haven't wasted my time.

I just want everyone to know that when I comment on a poem, it's just me and my opinion. That's the bottom line. Whatever I say has little to do with whether a poem is in reality good or bad, meaningful or trite, sappy or moving. It is what it is to every other single person who reads it.

If you, Alexandra, decide to post your stuff and I end up talking about it, just remember, I'm talking about the words you put down, not you. It's all about the words unless you make it out to be about more.

 

[Unmasked Poet]

Forget the numbers and get off the fence

Oh just get in here! We are a very diverse group and admittedly odd. Many of my observations are sometimes void of artist considerations but that is okay. I find it hard to believe the artist was considering me when he or she wrote the poem. There are many here who will comment and help you grow if that’s what you want. Just dive in.

Overall I must say we are not a group of hand-holders. We do love poetry, and we love good poetry a lot, you won’t find a lot here but we are getting better.

U.P.

 

[alexandraaah]

Re: Re: Feedback novice, green and scared.

There was a line in pleasureau's poem that was criticized---something was "filled with flush" and the critic said, "something can be flushed, not filled with flush" well, i saw that as imagery, that the object was flushed, like my cheeks after drinking whiskey! I rather liked that imagery.

*waves her hand* That would be me.

Sure, I understood what pleasureu meant, and I saw the image. I just think it was worded incorrectly. I saw a few typos in that poem that made me wonder if it was looked over carefully.

Off the top of my head I can think of two things that will make an image sing to me. 1) It needs to be a fresh image (as opposed to cliche.) 2) It needs to be worded well. To me, something is worded well if it sounds good, literally. If the sounds go together like, well, POETRY. LOL. If the carefully chosen words are just spot-on, and I get that "My God, that poet just nailed that idea with the minimum of perfect words" feeling. Once in a while, I'll admit, an image can affect me if it touches some unique chord in my personal life, but really, it still has to struggle through my cliche and word choice filters, but maybe just not as hard as other not-so-personal images do.

I spent an hour analyzing and writing my comments for pleasureu's poem. I usually do that because I believe what I do helps me and others learn. I think it keeps this community of poets (and wannabe's) active. I hope it helps the poet see at least one detailed viewpoint other than their own. I also hope that other poets will return the favor.

This time, I'm not sure what my motives were, to be honest. I certainly don't expect pleasureu to acknowledge what I did. I'm sure he'll take it as an affront that I'd dare to point out any flaws in his expression of love and emotion. I did my best to be objective, but perhaps my motive was less so than my commentary.

I never expect the poet to completely agree. I won't lie and say I'm not pleased when they do agree. But I'm just as happy if they come back and say, "I like it my way. Here's why." At least I know then that they thought about what I said and I haven't wasted my time.

I just want everyone to know that when I comment on a poem, it's just me and my opinion. That's the bottom line. Whatever I say has little to do with whether a poem is in reality good or bad, meaningful or trite, sappy or moving. It is what it is to every other single person who reads it.

If you, Alexandra, decide to post your stuff and I end up talking about it, just remember, I'm talking about the words you put down, not you. It's all about the words unless you make it out to be about more.

Whisper,
thanks for responding...and for being so honest. I hear everything you're saying and it sounds like I judged your feedback in the middle of something a little more heated than usual. Sounds to me like you give really well thought out feedback and if I do ever jump down from the fence and get a helmet, I'd like to hear what you have to say.
Alexandra

 

[alexandraaah]

Re: Forget the numbers and get off the fence

Oh just get in here! We are a very diverse group and admittedly odd. Many of my observations are sometimes void of artist considerations but that is okay. I find it hard to believe the artist was considering me when he or she wrote the poem. There are many here who will comment and help you grow if that’s what you want. Just dive in.

Overall I must say we are not a group of hand-holders. We do love poetry, and we love good poetry a lot, you won’t find a lot here but we are getting better.

U.P.

Yeah, yeah I hear it all. I'm definitely not looking for hand-holding, please don't misunderstand! Lemme finish my most creative paper for my research then I'll jump in. Thanks.
Alexandra

 

[perks]

my two cents, finally.

I have read the discussion and pointedly veered away from it even though I have received numerous e-mail directing me to it.

I like poetry. The comments on this board<even the ones I don't agree with< have helped me. When I don't agree with something, I hold onto that information until the next time I write and try to work my voice or my concepts or my punctuation differently.

Of course the poems we as poets submit are what we think is good poetry. It's an ego thing this whole don't say that about my brilliant poem thing. I've been talking with Shameless Flirt about petry and writing. Sometimes I just yell at him "NO...you suck" when he tries to change some of my ideas or imagery. Of course, I don't really mean that, I care for him as a friend.

I think the piece missing is that the community is expecting care and kid gloves when someone kicks their words. We are sensitive. My god, we ARE poets. haahahaha

Lots of people have said, including me, have discussed that "published poets" get their work dissected all the time. Let me ask you this. When was the last time you told Ezra Pound his word choice and punctuation sucks. When have you told him his imagery sucks. Let me guess, NEVER. You dissect his stuff to learn, to see how he worked his stuff. To look from his POV...to wear his shoes.

I love to get my stuff worked over. It only makes me better. But those who don't want it, even if they're in the toplist, don't freakin' do it. How difficult is that?

If someone doesn't want you to critique their poetry, don't. And if you don't know if they do or not, ask first. Courtesy shouldn't be thrown out of the window, just because you know how to do something and they don't. I believe that's called snobbery.

perks

ps. flame away

 

[monster666]

.

I love to get my stuff worked over. It only makes me better.

It's all part of continuous improvement; an ideology adopted by many people serious about nearly everything. With poetry, I think it's a lot harder to accept the review part of this process. It's a good mind that can distinguish between a personal affront and contructive input when something so close is the subject.

I love your 'tude, babe. Your ass ain't bad, either.

 

[Whispersecret]

If someone doesn't want you to critique their poetry, don't. And if you don't know if they do or not, ask first. Courtesy shouldn't be thrown out of the window, just because you know how to do something and they don't. I believe that's called snobbery.

ps. flame away

Hey, Perky. I respect you, but I must disagree.

I am a courteous person. I always thank someone who holds the door for me. I let people in when they signal a desire to change lanes. I don't wantonly criticize other people in my offline life. But this is different. This has nothing to do with courtesy, as I see it.

In life, when you take an action, there are natural consequences. If you say hi to someone in a bar, you might get rebuffed. If you get a new haircut, you might end up looking stupid.

This is the principle I believe:

If you post your work on a public forum as an offering that you think is worthy for everyone to read, then people might talk about it.

I mean, this is what it means to PUBLISH something, people! A lot of people who send stuff to Literotica and get it accepted feel like they are PUBLISHED. That's a great feeling. But, you know, in real life you gotta take the good with the bad! You can't just take the good! It doesn't work that way.

When you're PUBLISHED, people might not like it and say so.

If you are not willing to accept this, then what you're saying is, "Here's my writing. Please read it. I think it's good, but I only want to hear if you like it."

It just doesn't work like that. If you don't want to hear the good AND bad, then you shouldn't not submit it for publication. (And I'm not talking to Perky. I'm just talking (shouting) to, oh, everyone. LOL)

If you simply must enlighten the world, but still don't want to particularly hear if the world isn't enlightened, then turn off voting, refuse to accept anonymous feedback, and don't come here to the poetry feedback board. That way you can continue to live in your fortress, content in your ignorance about the value of honest critiques.

I guess what I'm saying boils down to this:

PUBLICATION INVITES PUBLIC COMMENT.

 

[daughter]

LOL

WS--

How did I know you'd go there? Come, friend. Let me shield you from the arrows. LOL

Gotta love you, girl. Always gotcha back.

Peace,

daughter

 

[perks]

Whisper I think you have some great and valid points. I agree with what you're saying for myself, personally. I also think that if someone doesn't want your critique and pointedly tells you, whether they keep posting or not, you shouldn't critique him or them.

For instance.
person A submits poetry
person B rips it to shreds in the name of critique
person A doesn't want it and makes a point of saying this isn't about whether or not you like it or think I can write, this is about me expressing myself
person B keeps critiquing anyway. With the excuse, it's there, therefore I can say what I want about it.


Surely you can say whatever you like. But why bother? what's the point? He doesn't want it. You're wasting your time. Is it just so you can show what a good critic you are?

When I first came here, I had this discussion with daughter, and I was adamant in my beliefs. Oddly enough my perspective at the time was yours. And for myself, this is what I believe. But, I also realize, not EVERYONE feels the way I do. And, isn't it THEIR decision, their RIGHT, to decide whether they want critiques or not? Who are we? Are we the POET GODS? NO, we're students. We're learning. Not everyone posts for that reason. ANd what I am saying, is that we should respect everyone's POV.

If they don't want it, don't do it. Why aren't they able to post or read the boards because of something they decide. Why can't we be the ones to compromise. Are we so full of ourselves that we can't let someone who doesn't want a critique be?

Let's end this. It's beyond ridiculous.

choice for all,
perky

 

[Unmasked Poet]

For instance.
person A submits poetry
person B rips it to shreds in the name of critique
person A doesn't want it and makes a point of saying this isn't about whether or not you like it or think I can write, this is about me expressing myself
person B keeps critiquing anyway. With the excuse, it's there, therefore I can say what I want about it.

Uh.. Perky you spelled my name wrong, two letters not one.

And it is not "B" its U.P.


U.P.

 

[Ded Poet]

what can u do

I guess we just have to accept the fact that people are gonna just whatever they want to do, no matter what anyone says.

I for on have been SCREAMING for criticism--even started a thread devoted to it. What do I get? Nothin'. Zilch. Zip. Nada. I'm reduced to critiquing my own work, which sucks cuz I'm schizo enough as it is!

I say, Fuck it.

DP

 

[daughter]

DP

Critiques take time. And technically, we're suppose to submit all work to the site before we address them here.

Yes, we sometimes address works that the poet doesn't want to discuss, but honestly no one is going to consistently invest that much energy into a poet's work when he doesn't want it. The exception is when it hits the spotlight.

BTW, the whole notion of critiques is new here. You see the resistance. Only a few of us are willing. You'd be surprised what's in our pm boxes. And don't faint, but I actually try to write some of my own work in between. LOL

Peace,

daughter

 

[Whispersecret]

Perky, I see your point as well. I don't think I'm a poet goddess. Far from it. But I do think I have some valuable input to give. Let me just say that as far as I'm concerned, if someone doesn't appreciate my honest criticism, I certainly don't want to waste my time and effort writing it.

I also agree that a person has every right not to want criticism.

But I don't see us ever coming to a true compromise. I have very strong feelings about the subject of political correctness and adhering to that because we might offend .05% of the population. I think this issue is just a tiny example of that larger problem, but I'm not going to go into that.

U.P.'s critiques are obviously written with the style of the movie reviewer. He quips and nips with a biting humor that I enjoy, and perhaps I only enjoy it because he hasn't yet really nipped at me. (Probably never will, because my stuff won't ever get to #1.)

He's not going to stop just because he hurt someone's feelings. If he worried about that, he wouldn't be doing what he does in the first place. I think he acts from a desire to foster lively discussion about poetry, and in that he's successful. Even if the poets don't appreciate his commentary, I do. I learn a lot from reading the poems he highlights and his analysis fo said poems. I said that about a month ago. So maybe he's just doing it for my sake!

I like this forum because I feel I'm broadening my horizons just a little to be yakking about poetry with people who both know more and less than I do about it. But I know that if I participate here, I run the risk of having my work raked over the coals.

But also, if I get to know someone here through their posts then I will probably make a greater effort to pull my punches a little. I'll still be honest and I won't lie, but I might go that extra mile to try to take the sting out of it. But that's just me. No everyone feels like that, nor should they.

I still say, "Publication invites public comment, good and bad." (Had to add that last part.)

 

[perks]

Uh.. Perky you spelled my name wrong, two letters not one.

And it is not "B" its U.P.


U.P.

I'm guilty of this myself UP, so don't claim the glory all for thineself.

oh look I used my "voice" in a sentence.


perks

 

[Unmasked Poet]

I hear you perky



U.P.

 

[perks]

whisper,
I wasn't flaming UP in my response. I was flaming myself and everyone else who beats a dead horse. I love the way UP critiques. I'm one of the most brutal critics on here, when I have the time to do it. I guess I just wanted us to see the reverse side of the coin too. It's up to each one of us what our choices are.

If I was an advocate for political correctness, I apologize. That was not my intent. I should be shot. I'm in favor of choices, is all. And in favor of tolerance of the choice opposite of mine.

I don't want you to take this as an offense to your thought process or that I was trying to say you thought you were a god or whatever. I think I'm a goddess, I think my points of view are on target...lol

I also think the reason I responded to the post, is because you're were so eloquent and adamant. I respond well to backbone. You're strong sistah, and I appreciate your viewpoint and your strong opinions. Keep going, and thrive in the face of different thought. It is the only way to keep our perspectives and originality.

perks.

 

[Unmasked Poet]

What is the fuss?

Currently here are the threads on the forum devoted to commentary about poetry, poems and poets

The new #1 (Unmasked Poet) poetry

The New Poems List (Unmasked Poet) poetry

Criticism Forum (Ded Poet) poetry

Holding poems up to the light, then beating them senseless. (Unmasked Poet) poems and poets

Poetry Alert (The Young Lions) (Unmasked Poet) poets

Out of all these threads, only one puts poems under the "microscope" so to speak. We have no idea what the “Criticism Forum” could be because we do not support it. We as a community barely support the other ones. The rest are nice feel good pat on the back threads for the most part. Think of these threads as newspapers, you have five choices, which you can contribute to, encourage, and invest in. I enjoy all five and I must apologize to Ded Poet for not taking the time to drop in and support his efforts. I have also let a few papers slide. I know this because of the pms I get from members asking me when am I going to update them. Mmmmm, I’ll say this again I do this because I like it. I like poetry. My favorite thread is the new #1 and yet I do not try to hog the commentary. I have asked, pleaded, solicited and pushed for others to take part and even take over if they want.

You don’t like New #1 paper, don’t read it! I welcome you to comment on its tone, or posture. You want to change it then write some articles in it yourself. Or start your own community thread. The ones I have started have always been open to everyone. But do not expect or ask me to speak with your voice, or attend to your sensitivities. I have never judged a person, only a poem. And if those *lame fucks can’t see the difference then too bad.

We have poets walking around soliciting votes like whores at a convention. Couple that with accusations of clandestine powers manipulating vote totals. Little mafias controlled by Tigerjen and U.P. and of course the invisible “Establishment.” Where are we LasVegas? Better yet a HBO movie. Where is Redwave? He's the counselor for my family, er...I mean me, yeah me.

Sure it all looks pretty, but there is a seamy underbelly to those light airy words. What would you expect when you’re tossing around all that passion and angst? It’s an uncensored unedited environment; at its most stable it’s a volatile mixture.
Watch it explode on HBO’s newest series
“Underneath the Rhyme”

U.P.

*Dialog from the HBO series.

 

[perks]

damnit, are you right all the time?



perks

 

[lovetoread]

damnit, are you right all the time?



perks

He is.

 

[Dillinger]

I disagree.

 

[Unmasked Poet]

So do I

.

 

[lovetoread]

Please tell me ya'll didnt miss the wink?

 

[Unmasked Poet]

I saw it, Dillinger and I, are minimalist.

 

[Ded Poet]

where's REDWAVE?

you caught that?

I saw it, Dillinger and I, are minimalist.

U.P refers to himself and Dillinger in the 'Royal We'...I think we have new top suspect!

Like a bloodhound on the trail,
DP