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Angeline

Poet Chick
Joined
Mar 11, 2002
Posts
27,349
I've been working on this poem for about a week. The style is a departure from the way I normally write, and I'm sort of unsure if it's working (or even what I'm doing, lol).

I want to keep the deadpan tone, but otherwise how is it? Too long? Is any of it offensive (well to anyone besides creationists)? My basic aim is to raise questions that make Eden dogma seem pretty shaky to me, but it goes beyond that, too. Does all that come across?

Have at it, if you're so inclined--I'm very interested in what you think. And thanks! :)

Maybe Not

So I read this poem,
which posits that Hemingway
was maybe the other Adam.

Maybe not.

Did any of you know
there were two Adams?
Never mind that one
was a clothed, hard-drinking,
writer-Adam, manly, and yet
allegedly homophobic
to the point of suspicion?

Of course these last
suppositions are scurrilous,
since manliness has nothing
to do with sexual preference.

And what
of the time-space continuum?
Hemingway was well-traveled,
but presumably only geographically,
and not temporally,

so maybe not.

My position however
assumes that Adam-Adam and Earnest-Adam
inhabited the same Eden at the same time,
one wearing a fig leaf and eating figs
and other not-apple fruits,
the other clothed and drinking,
typing and swearing.

If they were not in the same Eden
at once and Earnest-Adam
were in a more modern one,
would it be polluted?
And if so, would it still be Eden?

And if they were in the same Eden
who was tempted by the snake?
I think it was Adam-Adam
because Earnest-Adam
was a man's man, and thus
likely a top

or would have been,
were Adam and Adam
in Eden or Adam-Adam in
then Eden, or Earnest-Adam
in more recent then Eden.

Frankly I think that this concept
of two Adams, together or not,
is outside the scope of this poem.

It has served primarily
to obscure Eve who no doubt
was relegated to picking up
the banana peels and peach pits
that Adam-Adam failed to place
in God's compost heap,

thus establishing a pattern
that would hold sway
for millennia.

Maybe,
assuming Eden even needed
a compost heap,
so maybe not.


And what of the snake?
He seems a deconstructed male
lusting after Eve,
hissing about the damned apple.

How come Eve is the bad guy?
Nobody blames the snake--
Eve is a victim! And Adam
ate the apple, the dupe,
where was his brain?

Hemingway
would have strangled that snake,
I bet, and cooked him
with stewed apples.

Maybe.

Anyway, didn't Adam know apples
were disallowed? How come
nobody says:

What a dunce that Adam was;
eat the apple, then Eve has a bridge
she'd like to sell you.


But no,
Adam, apparently incapable
of foraging on his own,
eats the apple,
and cast out from paradise,
continues to follow Eve
into the wilderness,
no doubt asking where
she put his socks.

________________________
10/6 edited per The_Fool's corrections
 
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Holy Shit!!!

Now I have to think.

First read.

Check your Hemingway spelling.

...one wearing a fig leaf and eating figs
and other not apple fruits,
the other clothed and drinking,...



change not apple to not-apple to tie words.

I have to digest, give me a day or so...

Feeling Foolish, scratching my head
 
Holy Shit!!!

Now I have to think.

Yeah right. Like you can't. You don't fool me for a minute, Fool. :)


Suggestions thus far taken, and ty much. :rose:
 
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One Eve's opinion

Okay, rather deadpan. But was I suppose to have any fun reading this? It got a little lively for me right about here:

or would have been,
were Adam and Adam
in Eden or Adam-Adam in
then Eden, or Earnest-Adam
in more recent then Eden.

It didn't get me all frisky, but my ears perked up.

I found this part to be a silver lining:
Hemingway
would have strangled that snake,
I bet, and cooked him
with stewed apples.

-------------------------------------------

It has served primarily
to obscure Eve who no doubt
was relegated to picking up
the banana peels and peach pits
that Adam-Adam failed to place
in God's compost heap,

thus establishing a pattern
that would hold sway
for millennia.

Maybe,
assuming Eden even needed
a compost heap,
so maybe not.

And what of the snake?
He seems a deconstructed male
lusting after Eve,
hissing about the damned apple.

How come Eve is the bad guy?
Nobody blames the snake--
Eve is a victim! And Adam
ate the apple, the dupe,
where was his brain?

Uhhh... come on. This isn't too original. Must I take a switch to you?

The poem is interesting but some parts are rotten to the core. Hey, I wrote something close to a year ago on God, porn, religion, Eve... I think I had all of them in there. But when I went back and read it, it just didn't do it for me. Some subjects simply need special care or they can fall off the tree and end up squishy between your toes. This poem isn't squishy yet. There's still time to slice it and make it into a nice pie... I mean, poem. Okay, I'll stop with the apples.
 
Maybe?

Hi Angeline.

This is a fun piece. Here are my thoughts on it.

Maybe Not

So I read this poem,
which posits that Hemmingway
Hemingway
was maybe the other Adam.

Maybe not.
Maybe? -- a question mark seems to make me add a little skepticism to my thoughts and the dropping of the word "not" will establish a pattern you'll see further along into this poem.

Did any of you know
there were two Adams?
Never mind that one
was a clothed, hard-drinking,
writer-Adam, manly, and yet
allegedly homophobic
to the point of suspicion?


What of the other? The naked, hard-working, farmer-Adam, just as manly, and just as homophobic, although one wonders what he did prior to losing a rib.

Of course these
are scurrilous labels,
since manliness has nothing
to do with sexual preference.

And what
of the time-space continuum?
Hemingway was well-traveled,
but presumably only geographically,
and not temporally,

so maybe not.

My position however
assumes that Adam-Adam and Earnest-Adam
inhabited the same Eden at the same time,
one wearing a fig leaf and eating figs
and other not apple fruits,
and other 'such' non-apple fruits,
the other clothed and drinking,
typing and swearing.

If they were not in the same Eden
at once and Earnest-Adam
were in a more modern one,
would it be polluted?
And if so, would it still be Eden?

And if they were in the same Eden
who was tempted by the snake?
I think it was Adam-Adam
because Earnest-Adam
was a man's man, and thus
likely a top
What do you mean? Is Earnest-Adam atop the heap or is he a 'topper'? I don't get it.

or would have been,
were Adam and Adam
in Eden or Adam-Adam in
then Eden, or Earnest-Adam
in more recent then Eden.

Frankly
Place "Frankly" in its own verse to make the reader stop and breath. I think that this concept
of two Adams,
Hit enter here too. together or not,
is outside the scope of this poem.

It has served primarily
to obscure Eve who no doubt
was relegated to picking up
the banana peels and peach pits
that Adam-Adam failed to place
in God's compost heap,

thus establishing a pattern
that would hold sway
for millennia.

Maybe,
Maybe?
assuming Eden even needed
a compost heap,
so maybe not.


And what of the snake?
He seems a deconstructed male
lusting after Eve,
hissing about the damned apple.

How come Eve is the bad guy?
Nobody blames the snake--
Eve is a victim! And Adam
ate the apple, the dupe,
where was his brain?

Hemmingway
Hemingway
would have strangled that snake,
I'd be inclined to use the ever euphemistic "choked that snake" instead of the lame alliteration this seems to be.
I bet, and cooked him
Punctuate this line with a period and then add the next as an afterthought.
with stewed apples.

Maybe.
If you always ask "Maybe?" you can always answer "So maybe not." like you have twice before, above.

Anyway, didn't Adam know apples
were disallowed? How come
nobody says:

What a dunce that Adam was;
eat the apple, then Eve has a bridge
she'd like to sell you.

But no,
Here's where you answer the "Maybe?" Change this "But no," to "So maybe not." and then place a line break here.
Adam, apparently incapable
of foraging on his own,
eats the apple,
Punctuate with a colon and then delete the "and" conjunction in the next sentence.
and cast out from paradise,
continues to follow Eve
into the wilderness,
End this thought here. Add a line break and let the next stand on its own.
no doubt asking where
she put his socks
 
Eve on Eve

Well, I was counting on your comments--I mean it's *your* namesake, after all. :)

And much as about 50 people (most of them karmadog, lol) would no doubt love to see the two of us in a spanking scenario, I'll try to fix the poem instead. (Sorry kdog. Maybe if you stop lurking and do some freakin good titles, but only then. :heart:)

So you think that last part is cliche as an idea, or the way it's written (or both)? That's sort of the heart of the poem to me--what I was working up to--that this story, which we're supposed to accept as truth is logically flawed and introduces stereotypes that persist to this day.

Is there a better way to get at that do you think? Maybe some other poems you can recommend?

I know religion and issues related to it are very tricky writing subjects--well, tricky for any art. The other thing is I have a totally weird religious upbringing (aethist parents, orthodox jewish grandparents--we had trees, dreidels, you name it but no religion per se), so I never know if how I see stuff will offend more traditional types. And I do want to make my points, but I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

So is there a better way? What did you do with your poem?

Anyone else have thoughts on this?
 
If this was prose, I'd like it better. I'm still at that level where a poem needs to have a bow on it and be in the right sized box. Part of the problem for me was that this didn't quite work for me on a poetic level. Though, I know it will for many.

The part with the stereotypes works if you want to use stereotypes--but maybe present them more originally. Girl, I know you have a way with words.

How come Eve is the bad guy?
Nobody blames the snake--
Eve is a victim! And Adam
ate the apple, the dupe,
where was his brain?

Anyone could have written the above stanza. Anyone! Now, let Angeline do it her way. I want to hear you! Do I need to poke you with a cattle prod?
 
Oooooh Champagne

You are good, girl! I need some time to absorb all your suggestions, but I see stuff right off the bat that I love (the addition of the question marks, the line breaks, and "choke the snake" is perfect, haha). Ahem. (halo slipped)

You're an editor. I just know it. :)

Question:

The whole homophobe thing has been bugging me from my first draft cause I sure don't need to suggest anything about that. It's problematic (as evidenced by my need to justify saying it as soon as I do, lol). I think the only reason I got into it at all was so I could make this stanza:

And if they were in the same Eden
who was tempted by the snake?
I think it was Adam-Adam
because Earnest-Adam
was a man's man, and thus
likely a top
and you're right, it's confusing

lead to this next bit

or would have been,
were Adam and Adam
in Eden or Adam-Adam in
then Eden, or Earnest-Adam
in more recent then Eden.


which is my favorite part of the poem. Maybe I can keep it without getting into all that.

In any case, your review really helps. I'll repost later and if you wanna eyeball it again, that would be great. Thanks so much (everyone so far!).



:rose:
 
Anyone could have written the above stanza. Anyone! Now, let Angeline do it her way. I want to hear you! Do I need to poke you with a cattle prod?

Ok. Now I'm really laughing (and I hate it when Fool sees me snorting).

Admit it--you're tryin to lure the dog back, too. :p

But yes, mother, I hear you. I will go to the woodshed and fix somehow.

Thank you Your Wickedness. :)



(Did you like the audio? Next one I'm gonna snort in, just for Fool.)
 
All this talk about switches and prods is probably causing someone somewhere to drool. Snort? I bet an audio of you doing nothing but snorting would do great in lit's erotic audio section. Just make sure to say "Oh, baby" after the last snort.

Anyway, this Eve has nothing else to say about this poem. I'm going to read the other comments, wait for a revision, and do that thing that keeps the doctor away.
 
p.s Angeline? I don't think Papa Hemingway wore socks.

Maybe you can reflect that although Eve is now cursed with painful birth experiences, her's is but a temporary pain compared to the guilt the Adams feel each time they watch the Eves go through one. Damned snake!

Adam was punished too, you know? He lost his hope for immortality in Eden, the earthly paradise, and was promised by God Himself that he would now, surely die.

Tragic really, when you consider that this brought the demise of Earnest-Adam upon him. What's worse, for that matter, is that Hemingway was part of a generation that was damned anyway. Fascism and Despotism do not an earthly paradise make and the wars fought to erase them fulfilled the prophesy, yet again, that the Adams would surely die.
 
All this talk about switches and prods is probably causing someone somewhere to drool. Snort? I bet an audio of you doing nothing but snorting would do great in lit's erotic audio section. Just make sure to say "Oh, baby" after the last snort.

I snort when I laugh really hard. Not excessively, mind you, just a little. And I assure I do *not* snort in the throes of passion. Well, maybe if I start really laughing, which is not outside the realm of possibilty, but I feel I've said enough about that. :D

Champagne said

p.s Angeline? I don't think Papa Hemingway wore socks.

God you're right. I don't think I've ever seen a photo of him in socks. But the socks in my poem are metaphorical socks standing in (pun admittedly intended :)) for all the stuff my ex always assumed I was keeping track of.

Maybe you can reflect that although Eve is now cursed with painful birth experiences, her's is but a temporary pain compared to the guilt the Adams feel each time they watch the Eves go through one. Damned snake!

I dunno. I was laying in the hospital feeling half dead, and hubby went out for a beer....

Adam was punished too, you know? He lost his hope for immortality in Eden, the earthly paradise, and was promised by God Himself that he would now, surely die.

Ok, but some childbirth might have been nice, too.

Tragic really, when you consider that this brought the demise of Earnest-Adam upon him. What's worse, for that matter, is that Hemingway was part of a generation that was damned anyway. Fascism and Despotism do not an earthly paradise make and the wars fought to erase them fulfilled the prophesy, yet again, that the Adams would surely die.

And the real tragedy, born out in current events, is that many of them are still fulfilling it.

:rose:
 
Hey, Angel.

My feedback on this piece will be very short. But also very to the point.

The argument and idea of the theme is very interresting indeed, and your Hemmingway musings are an interresting read that almost has me convinced.

My objection is only one. And I'm afraid it night not be very constructive:

I can't read it.
Aloud, I mean.

A quiet read, pateiently sorting out the raised questions and reflections, proves enjoyable. But the piece lacks a certain rythm, a flow that I've found and enjoyed in many of your other poems.

A hint. Do you have a tape recorder? Or just a mic to hook up to the computer. Plug in, record yourself reading it, listen to it and you just might hear what I feel is lacking here.
 
Earnest Hemmingway

A few people have corrected your spelling of Hemingway, but no one has commented on "Earnest" which he spelled Ernest. Did you do that on purpose to make "Earnest-Adam" a different concept than "Ernest-Adam"?

Regards, Rybka
 
My objection is only one. And I'm afraid it night not be very constructive:

I can't read it.
Aloud, I mean.

A quiet read, pateiently sorting out the raised questions and reflections, proves enjoyable. But the piece lacks a certain rythm, a flow that I've found and enjoyed in many of your other poems.

A hint. Do you have a tape recorder? Or just a mic to hook up to the computer. Plug in, record yourself reading it, listen to it and you just might hear what I feel is lacking here.

Thanks Icing. I usually record my poems. I think you're right: it's an excellent way to hear the rhythm that should flow through the poem.

This is, admittedly, an odd poem in terms of style--at least for me. I haven't reccorded it yet cause I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do with it.

I don't hear it in my head--at least not now--as having the normal parsing of sentences, which is how I'd normally read my stuff aloud. As you noted, this should be more a socratic monologue, posing and rejecting arguments, with the "maybe?" being the refrain that separates them. And therein may lie the problem--inconsistent usage of that--with the way not clear to the reader. Could be formatting , too, I have to think about it. (And record it, too :)).

Question--you do what I would consider some fairly avant garde stuff with formatting, like one or two words on a line, for example. I read through your stuff easily (and really like it, too), but I read alot of different kinds of poetry and think I'm a pretty good poem reader. Is there any technique you use that you think guides readers (beyond logic and clarity, obviously, which I strive for, too) through such poems, where the "sense' of sentences may not be readily apparent from the construction? This is something I think becomes increasingly important as one strays from traditional formats.
 
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