Father's Rights?

cheerful_deviant

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Interesting article. I'm not commenting either way, have to think on it first.

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Father's Rights? Men Want Right To Turn Down Fatherhood
Group Wants Same Rights As Women

POSTED: 7:46 am EST March 9, 2006

NEW YORK -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter. The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose. (Discuss this case.)

"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Mich.

Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant.

Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

"What I expect to hear (from the court) is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case.

"The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.

Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

"Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

"The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

"If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

"None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."
 
If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.


Yes, well, how do you prove it was "unintended?"
In the case now, it claims she lied to him and told him she couldn't get pregnant. But in a case where the condom broke?

Now, wouldn't it be interesting... RvW gets overturned... and THIS law ends up changing? Then, women would be forced to have babies, and men would be completely absolved of financial responsibility... :eek:
 
A note to Mr. Dubay: Actions have consequences, ya fuckin' idjit.

Take responsibility for your actions and consequences.
 
Men do have the right to turn down fatherhood. There's condoms, pulling out, abstinence, anal, fellatio, neutering, moving to another country and getting a name change, etc., etc., etc. ...

I know there's a lot of women out there who attempt and often succeed in trapping men, but men do already have the right to turn down fatherhood if they're smart enough about it.

:cool:
 
Alternative solution: Pre-coital contracts?
 
SelenaKittyn said:
*chuckle*

I can see it... *pulling a pen out of the night table drawer* "Um, can you sign this?"
Yep. Tough luck getting laid with that.

Which in return should prevent fatherhood. So maybe it would work. :cool:
 
He wants choices, mmmmm.....

1. Use a condom
2. Keep you dick in your pants

There are two choices for ya, dumbass!
 
What a crock of shit.

It amazes me that our legal system allows abslute insanity to rule. You can apparently sue anybody for anything.
 
A one word solution: say it with me, VASECTOMY!

Another solution might be for the unwilling father to go ahead and pay the child support for the child imposed on him, and then collect restitution after the child has reached adulthood. Of course, that only rightly applies to cases where the woman deceived or tricked him in some way (such as saving the sperm from a spent condom, but spermicide should cover that, anyway- hasn't this guy HEARD of spermicide). It's an alternative solution with a long wait to payday, but just throwing it out there.

Again, I have trouble seeing how men could actually be FORCED to have kids- unless they are raped. If that ever happens, the woman should be in prison, in which case the man raises the child himself, as rapists would by definition be unfit mothers (or gives him up for adoption), and child support is a non-issue (kind of hard for a prisoner to pay child support, though perhaps when she gets out of prison).

Really, every way that I look at this situation, I don't see grounds for it, at the risk of sounding unsympathetic (or is that non-empathic) toward my own sex. Maybe it's because I believe in a little something called PREVENTION! :rolleyes:

Now, on the other hand, if the woman cheated on him, passed the child off as HIS, and he raised it, well then he should have a choice: adopt the child or demand that the biological father take over the duties. Personally, if I had invested that much time and money in a child, not to mention love, I would have to adopt. Getting the jackass who evaded his responsibilities and cuckolded me (unbeknownst to me, of course) to sign away his parental rights should be a cakewalk.

As I'm a swinger and my slave has had her tubes tied (long before I met her, actually), that's not really an issue. I use condoms with spermicide to avoid knocking girls up (which has the added benefit of reducing the risk of HIV and STDs).
 
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Not no but oh hell now...

I can see it now the number of men in court stating that they didn't want the child and don't want to pay for it... can you see the number of ASSHOLES that would use this as their form of 'abortion'? Understand I am not saying that all men would do this.... however it stands to reason that there are some women that use abortion in that manner why would a man not do that same if something like this came into being.... and yes I can see Ror vs Wade getting overturned and this being sworn in..... thank you rich white male politicians for fucking up MY reproductive rights and then shielding and protecting the good ole boy system :mad:
 
Halo_n_horns said:
Men do have the right to turn down fatherhood. There's condoms, pulling out, abstinence, anal, fellatio, neutering, moving to another country and getting a name change, etc., etc., etc. ...

Women have the same rights to turn down motherhood. Except the moving to another country of course.

Not saying I agree with the guy, but I think some of the reactions of "Use a condom, idiot" are a little bit odd, considering that you wouldn't say to a preganant woman, "You can't have an abortion cause you could've gone on the pill."

The Earl
 
I'm glad to see this debate get started. It's long overdue. As a divorcee, I've been on the bad end of this whole issue of fathers rights.

Basically the courts interpretation of "joint custody" these days is for the father to have the kids for 2 days out of every 14, and for the father to give large sums of money to the mother. On top of the money that's actually given, the father has to pay taxes on that money as well. She gets the money, he pays the taxes on it. Is that always fair? Is that truly "joint" custody?

When it comes to pregnancy, fathers have no say in the matter. If he wants the baby and she doesn't, she can get an abortion and there's nothing he can do about it. If she wants the baby and he doesn't, she has the child and he pays $$ for the next 18-22 years. It takes two to tango, but only one of the two have any say in the matter.

Fathers have little to no real rights in todays legal atmosphere. Over 90% of custody cases are ruled in favor of the mothers. This debate is long overdue. Most people don't realize how little say or rights a father truly has until they've been involved in it first hand.

This debate
 
Wildcard Ky said:
I'm glad to see this debate get started. It's long overdue. As a divorcee, I've been on the bad end of this whole issue of fathers rights.

Basically the courts interpretation of "joint custody" these days is for the father to have the kids for 2 days out of every 14, and for the father to give large sums of money to the mother. On top of the money that's actually given, the father has to pay taxes on that money as well. She gets the money, he pays the taxes on it. Is that always fair? Is that truly "joint" custody?

When it comes to pregnancy, fathers have no say in the matter. If he wants the baby and she doesn't, she can get an abortion and there's nothing he can do about it. If she wants the baby and he doesn't, she has the child and he pays $$ for the next 18-22 years. It takes two to tango, but only one of the two have any say in the matter.

Fathers have little to no real rights in todays legal atmosphere. Over 90% of custody cases are ruled in favor of the mothers. This debate is long overdue. Most people don't realize how little say or rights a father truly has until they've been involved in it first hand.

This debate

A valid point. However, adoption may be the best solution in many cases. You can't get punish the kid for what the parents do wrong, including the mother. Adoption is dismissed too much as a solution because it is painful for the mother. Never mind that it can be the more rational and selfless choice in many cases.
 
Wildcard: There's a very vociferous protest group in England actually, called Fathers For Justice, who pull stunts to attract attention to the kind of injustice you talk about.

The Earl
 
Well, such things should be handled better. If rights carry responsibilities, then responsibilities also mean rights. Fathers should be treated be better than that. And we should stop taxing them for money they don't even have.
 
I've always regarded women and children as more important than men.

I'm afraid that I don't understand the attitudes of men who are unwilling to sacrifice for their wife, even an ex-wife, or their kids.
 
rgraham666 said:
I've always regarded women and children as more important than men.

I'm afraid that I don't understand the attitudes of men who are unwilling to sacrifice for their wife, even an ex-wife, or their kids.

How about a one-night stand? It's not always as simple as that.

The Earl
 
rgraham666 said:
I've always regarded women and children as more important than men.

I'm afraid that I don't understand the attitudes of men who are unwilling to sacrifice for their wife, even an ex-wife, or their kids.

So much for "equality". :rolleyes:

If I sacrifice, it is not because I consider someone more important. It is simply because I care about someone and find it necessary.

And sacrifice for an ex? Not on your life! The day she and I part ways, she is no longer my responsibility or problem. Especially if she has made my life a living hell. I just want to move on with my life in such cases. She doesn't DESERVE my protection or provision. Children are different. You can't divorce them. But exes? I don't protect or provide for those that I possibly hate.
 
TheEarl said:
Wildcard: There's a very vociferous protest group in England actually, called Fathers For Justice, who pull stunts to attract attention to the kind of injustice you talk about.

The Earl
One of the guys on my pool team told me about that, he's a member I believe. So it's not just in England.

Wildcard.. Hear hear!!
 
And sacrifice for an ex? Not on your life! The day she and I part ways, she is no longer my responsibility or problem. Especially if she has made my life a living hell. I just want to move on with my life in such cases. She doesn't DESERVE my protection or provision. Children are different. You can't divorce them. But exes? I don't protect or provide for those that I possibly hate.


there was a time when you couldn't absolve yourself of the responsibility of a mate, once you claimed her... and a reason behind it... I'm not saying we need to go back in time... but...

there is something very masculine about making a commitment and keeping it...

I honor Rob's sentiment...
 
SelenaKittyn said:
there was a time when you couldn't absolve yourself of the responsibility of a mate, once you claimed her... and a reason behind it... I'm not saying we need to go back in time... but...

there is something very masculine about making a commitment and keeping it...

I honor Rob's sentiment...

I can understand keeping a commitment, but once it is broken, it is broken. Many exes are sworn enemies these days, often because of the wife's actions during the divorce (though often not). It is not realistic in cases of divorce to expect every man to be sentimental about his ex, any more than you can expect it of a woman and hers.

Frankly, I'd be too bitter.
 
SelenaKittyn said:
there was a time when you couldn't absolve yourself of the responsibility of a mate, once you claimed her... and a reason behind it... I'm not saying we need to go back in time... but...

there is something very masculine about making a commitment and keeping it...

I honor Rob's sentiment...
Don't get me wrong, I love my kids and I don't want to give away my rights of them. However, I am steamed about how little rights we actually have as fathers. I have commitment, and I keep it. Hell, I promised my ex custody, and I've not gone for it, even though she has put me through so much mental anguish that everyone asks me why I keep the promise.

I just want equal rights in everything, in society, in child bearing, everything. What they said earlier is true, if I impregnated a woman, and WANTED the child, she could get an abortion and there would be nothing I could do about it. I mean, that hasn't happened to me, but I did go through a point where I thought it was going to happen. How is that fair? It's my child too, even if it is her body, what gives her more right to decide the fate of my unborn child?
 
It is the only situation that I can think of where you are often legally obliged to provide for a sworn enemy. :rolleyes: I can understand in some cases, such as with children, but it is otherwise often parasitical. Divorce is, well, DIVORCE! They are not your mate anymore. They are not your lover. Often, they are not even on speaking terms with you. Quite often, she wouldn't give you water if you were dying of thirst.
 
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