Fantasizers interfere R/T BDSM relarionship searches

[PrincessGoddess]

Recently, a lifestyle Dominatrix brought to my attention the proliferation of fantasizers who have been promulgating in ever increasing numbers on adult personal ad websites, bulletin boards, and chat rooms. Her chief complaint was that over the last couple of years, She had noticed a significant increase in the number of respondors to Her ads that did not fully comprehend that "real time" meant real, and not an interaction that was established by a script, and developed as an imaginary play in the mind. An example of this was shown to me through a series of one on one chats that She had with a "prospective slave". As She walked this person through a set of interrogatories, the "prospect" had all the right answers, but failed to answer a questionnaire, or to respond to repeated reply requests by email. She asked me, "what went wrong, and how can I prevent this in the future?"

I explained that the BDSM lifestyle is suffering from "fantasy creep", brought on by the internet, itself. Email, instant messaging, chat, and the biggest culprit of all, the webcam, have brought convenience to the lifestyle, at the expense of quality relationships. While information on the lifestyle has become more abundant, and aspects of the lifestyle more mainstream, the real losers are Dominants and submissives who do not view BDSM as a fantasy or game.

So, the issue itself becomes the problem of restoring integrity to the relationship search. How can this task become less frustrating, and more rewarding? Personal, face to face interaction, as it always was prior to the advent of the personal computer, may hold the key. There really is no substitute for a face to face meeting. Facial expressions and body language are not hidden in person as easily as they are behind a computer screen. Personal IDs can be compelled for production, along with other necessary documents. Contracts can be signed, and notarized. Words can be converted into action during a face to face encounter.

The responsibility for restoring integrity to the search process, in my opinion, falls squarely on the person who is initiating a search. Dominants: make these subs come to a location that is public, and in close proximity to your home. Do not engage in email tag with any prospective sub. If the interactions do not appear to be moving towards a face to face meeting, move on. You might go through 200 emails to identify a person worthy of a face to face meeting. In the end, if we hold ourselves accountable to a higher standard, I believe that this current circumstance can be significantly mitigated.

 

[PrincessGoddess]

Comments anyone?

 

[MasterOniKuma]

I honestly agree with you. Not only has there been the influx of fantasy online roleplayers, but also those that fail to realize the difference between the Lifestyle and what I call Bedroom Bondage. And you are right, the computer has been both a blessing and a cure in this regard. My Wife and I do happen to have a couple of online slaves, and we use thier online sessions as a form of "Collar of Consideration." This is because we are seeking slaves for a 24/7 D/s Poly Home. I agree that homest communication about what is desired and intended in the relationship (even online) is the most important. And those who we have desired to meet, we normaly do as you suggest. We meet them locally, normaly at a near by club or event.

I will say that I will usually require a web cam during online sessions, but mainly to watch thier fascial expressions when talking. It is hard to hide those first reactions when reading.

 

[Desdemona]

It's up to both parties

There are as many wannabe dominants online as there are submissives. When I was in the bdsm dating pool, I sure met alot of wankers who could talk a good game, but were really just looking for somebody to give them a quick bj without any sort of relationship, bdsm experience, etc. They think subbies are easy prey.

The only cure is to take it to reality fairly quickly. Real life interactions are the real test.

 

[catalina_francisco]

There are wannabes in almost all areas of life. What it comes down to is using your head; keeping your libido and heart in check as opposed to leading you from the get-go despite any red flags noticed; and taking responsibility for any decisions/actions you might be part of as it is an equal responsibility to ensure a match made in heaven, not one person's responsibility to guarantee you will get what you expect without any effort to gauge the validity/authenticity of what is on offer and making a decision from your own perspective.

I think as far as fantasy goes, if someone feels that they should be able to rely on everyone they talk to/meet as a prospective partner (lifestyle or mainstream), then they are expecting a lot and neglecting to acknowledge the reality of the world and those in it. Not everyone online is a fake, nor is everyone who frequents clubs/play parties/munches authentic...it is a 'buyer beware' type situation where you have to evaluate people on an individual basis and then make your decision one way or the other, and hopefully without the baggage of feeling someone let you down because you mistook them for something they weren't and then transferring that baggage to others.

Catalina

 

[Homburg]

I'm not looking, thankfully. Were I looking, I would likely be unhappy with the exact situation you are discussing, as I have interacted with far too many dabblers. It's tough to tell the honest BDSM virgins from dabblers too, as they exhibit the same sort of traits. In general, I advise taking it face to face as well. All the interaction online won't really get you the same sort of har ddata that RL interaction will. Sure, it is an excellent method of consideration, as someone else mentioned, but not something I would want to forge an entire relationship on.

 

[Netzach]

I met two partners at a munch, and never emailed them prior to meeting in person in my life.

I met my personal slave as a phone client doing sex work (phone Domination sessions) - that's about as fantasy-laden a set of expectations anyone could be saddled with, and yet we hit it off as people, friends, and ultimately owner/property. It's what you make it.

Personally it's the chemistry. *shrug* the media only fucks it up if you let it.

 

[Primalex]

Comments anyone?

I find it amusing that someone who looks for real time uses the web for it. Why exactly do you need to search online? Because you are as lazy as the ones you complain about. It's not faster or easier to find a partner online - just the time is spent at different times in the process. Online, it doesn't take much time to find people, but it takes more time to weed them out. Real life, it takes much more time to find people, but it takes much less time to weed them out.

 

[PrincessGoddess]

I use the web to communicate and collaborate, not to do M/s search

I find it amusing that someone who looks for real time uses the web for it. Why exactly do you need to search online? Because you are as lazy as the ones you complain about. It's not faster or easier to find a partner online - just the time is spent at different times in the process. Online, it doesn't take much time to find people, but it takes more time to weed them out. Real life, it takes much more time to find people, but it takes much less time to weed them out.

Being in r/t relationships for over 20 of my years on this planet, I can only tell you that I was always "noticed" in social settings of many different stripes; work, lifestyle get-togethers, professional meetings, conventions, etc. Always had a follow up meal in a public setting next, and everything just sortof fell into place after that. Personally, I think that random things are the best part about our lives. Lessens the monotony, and gives us additional things to praise, or curse.

 

[YourCaptor]

I find it funny how there are so many self-proclaimed slaves who talk a good game on TPE, but then proceed to tell you the epic that is their fantasy, which they of course want to live out.

Right, lets do all the things a slave wants to do.

I think over all the web is a good tool. It broadens the range of people you can consider dramatically, however it makes meeting that much harder. It’s ok though you know.

 

[desertslave]

I feel a compelling need to cry bullshit on this.

I met my first Sir in 1978, in college. Well before the Net resembled much of anything. My only notions about BDSM at the time were from those absurd letters in Penthouse Variations books. Sir, who was a bi switch, came up through the gay leather crowd, and that was the context in which I was trained. We were together 5 years before he was killed in a car accident. After a year of trying to find equilibrium, I quit the lifestyle and married vanilla. 9 years ago I came to my senses. The world had changed, and the Internet was huge.

I found my way through a dazzling number of sites. I found a wonderful submissives' forum to help ground me. Then, by a stroke of luck, I met Someone. We started out as friends, exchanging backgrounds, ideas, information. It became much more amazingly quickly. However, I lived on the east coast and he lived in the Southwest. I'm SO grateful that he never suffered from notions of proximity or timeliness! It took us 7 months to be able to meet in person for the first time (thank god, because the original plan would've made it almost a year). It took me another 2 years to get extricated from an already-doomed-anyway marriage and to move closer to him. We've now known each other 9 years and been married for 3.

I've met my share of wannabes....just as many in real life as online. Sadly they were there long before the net gave them any extra opportunities. Thankfully I was claimed pretty quickly the second time around, so I'm certain I was sheltered from the worst of the Domly Dom-types online, but I met enough to set my teeth on edge. The funny-sad thing is that, having been familiar with their r/l counterparts, they weren't at all difficult to spot online.

I cannot bring myself to condemn the Net itself. While it's certainly presented more and varied opportunities for wannabes of all persuasions, it's also opened up many more people's eyes to the REAL possibilities with real experiences and real information that was unbelievably difficult to find before. In that submissives' group I referred to earlier, it amazes me how often we get new members who had lived this way but didn't have a name for it, or who have been searching for so long for that ephemeral something that was missing, only to finally have someplace online light their way.

For Master and myself, the best thing of all was the ability to meet, communicate clearly (one has to be pretty damned clear without having those facial expressions for assistance) and keep in touch when things got difficult. We've often compared our hours-long nightly IM's to the usual 'dinner and a movie' dating and found the IM's to be far more helpful.

I suppose the simplest solution would be to stick to where you know. Find a local club and do you searching there, period. However, you may be depriving yourself of a genuine potential match a few miles or even a few states away. I guess it depends on how much you want to persevere, but nobody ever said this lifestyle was supposed to be easy.

 

[madetotakeit]

I have to say that without the internet I would not have found much of the information that has been so helpful, the people that I talked to where I lived before, and the people that I am lucky enough to have in my life now. Many things available are not well advertised unless you are lucky enough to live in or near a large city...or know where to look.

Having said that, the number of fantasy revelers is overwhelming and can be daunting. My Yahoo ignore list is so long it is starting to resemble War and Peace. I don't, however, think that there are more proportionately online as opposed to real life. Online simply allows a larger number of people to come in contact. Of course I wish I had a magic wand that would prevent interferences of this sort, but it is part of life. Nothing worth having is ever just placed in your lap.

 

[Kathykitten]

You gotta ask yourself: Do fantasy-roleplayers and wannabes not deserve to have their part-time kinks just as well as anyone who has a full time bdsm heart? Or is the problem you are getting at rather that the internet has complicated the process of weeding out the fantasy people from the hardcore crowd for those looking for a hardcore relationship? (which I am quite sure is entirely true)

Not everyone wants a bdsm relationship that is for “real”. There are many kinks out there who would never wish to live the lifestyle full time, but who still wishes to meet others for just the occasional experience or the ‘lighter’ version. It’s their Kink, their joy, their pleasure.

Do we really need to restore or redefine the “understanding” of a bdsm relationship? Or can something be done in the way websites are presented, and ads are written so that the search gets easier and smoother? Instead of re-establishing the ‘true’ meaning of bdsm, perhaps something can be done with the meeting places online. Such as the creation of websites specifically for “serious” bdsm so those who wish to be in a full and deep relationship know where to look?

The responsibility for restoring integrity to the search process, in my opinion, falls squarely on the person who is initiating a search.

I cannot entirely agree with this. The very reason a person searching hooks on to an ad, is that they think the ad speaks to them. I do believe a lot of the responsibility is with the searcher, but the one writing the ad needs to figure out how to word it so that it attracts the people he / she wants.

 

[akittenone]

this is something kitten feels strongly about having been at the recieving end of players and fakes on a few of the adult sites.
The need to 'play' and lead others on is great, some see it as a way to get their kicks and have a sub/slave do what they wish," not really interested in the life but going to give it a go " type of thing.
A sub/slave with experience in the life will quickly pick up on this and then it is their choice if they wish to continue but it is the damage these fakes do to the new entering the lifestyle that is scary, they know no different and assume that is how it is.

 

[Homburg]

You gotta ask yourself: Do fantasy-roleplayers and wannabes not deserve to have their part-time kinks just as well as anyone who has a full time bdsm heart? Or is the problem you are getting at rather that the internet has complicated the process of weeding out the fantasy people from the hardcore crowd for those looking for a hardcore relationship? (which I am quite sure is entirely true)

Not everyone wants a bdsm relationship that is for “real”. There are many kinks out there who would never wish to live the lifestyle full time, but who still wishes to meet others for just the occasional experience or the ‘lighter’ version. It’s their Kink, their joy, their pleasure.
.

Good for the dabblers. I'm all for exploring your kinks and sexual interests. The problem is that the dabblers never identify themselves as such. Part-timers and dilletantes either won't own up to their lightweight interests, or, more probably, just are not self-aware enough to realise that they swim in the shallow end of the pool. They produce profiles and online personas designed to attract interest, not communicate reality (something full-time folk are guilty of as well, just in different ways), and thus irritate people that take their profiles at face value and find out later that said person is only up for light spankings and sensation play, or is just some HNG trolling for easy sex.

Self-awareness and honesty would be the way to fix this, but far too many people are caught up in the anonymity of the internet and thus the ability to create identities whole cloth. This hampers good match-making on vanilla sites as well as BDSM ones, so it is not endemic to us only. The difference is that we have different ways in which someone can falsify their interests and abilities beyond the nilla realm. Whee.

 

[PrincessGoddess]

Sorry to interrupt this thread

Please pardon my interruption. I have requested some assistance in this forum from all of the very smart people who frequent the BDSM Talk Forum page. I would certainly appreciate some feedback in that thread. I guess I could have used the word "help", instead of "counsel", but I was trying to be respectful and polite. Thank you for your indulgence.

Leslie

 

[BiBunny]

Good for the dabblers. I'm all for exploring your kinks and sexual interests. The problem is that the dabblers never identify themselves as such. Part-timers and dilletantes either won't own up to their lightweight interests, or, more probably, just are not self-aware enough to realise that they swim in the shallow end of the pool. They produce profiles and online personas designed to attract interest, not communicate reality (something full-time folk are guilty of as well, just in different ways), and thus irritate people that take their profiles at face value and find out later that said person is only up for light spankings and sensation play, or is just some HNG trolling for easy sex.

Self-awareness and honesty would be the way to fix this, but far too many people are caught up in the anonymity of the internet and thus the ability to create identities whole cloth. This hampers good match-making on vanilla sites as well as BDSM ones, so it is not endemic to us only. The difference is that we have different ways in which someone can falsify their interests and abilities beyond the nilla realm. Whee.

I think a lot of the problem is, especially on this forum, is the emphasis on TPE or nothing at all. There are a whole lot of shades of gray between vanilla and TPE. But I think a lot of folks get caught up in the notion that if it's not TPE, it's not really dominance or submission or whatever. I wouldn't call myself a dabbler, either, but I have zero desire whatsoever for TPE in any relationship. Just not my thing. Am I, then, a time-waster? I don't think so, but there are those who would say I am. There are those who'd say I'm a greedy bitch who can't make up my mind either because of the bi poly switch thing, too, but whatever. *Shrug*

I mean, I get the frustration. If I have to talk to another guy who thinks "domination" means me tying him to the bed, giving him a blowjob, and nailing him ass with a strap-on, I think I might lose my mind. It's like that quote you told me, H. What, 80% of the people who are supposedly into BDSM are into it 'cause they think it makes 'em look cool? It makes the other 20% have a hard time finding each other, y'know? (And I'd wager that those numbers are pretty close to being correct, or else somewhat optimistic, based on what I've seen here and in various other venues, real-time and online.)

BUT you also have to take responsibility for the kinds of people you attract. When I get one of those "tie me up and give me a blowjob" boys, as soon as I realize that's all they want, I send them on their merry little way. You learn how to ask the right kinds of questions to gauge character in the shortest amount of time possible if you do it long enough.

I just don't think it's right to blame the "dabblers." Like I said, hell, I think I'm about as kinky as they come and still keep it mostly within the bounds of legality, but many would consider me a dabbler because I prefer S&M play and part-time power exchange relationships to full-blown TPE. Does that make my experience any less valid, hedonistic slut that I am? Nope. Just means that I always make sure I let people know up front who I am and what I'm about. I've also learned to quickly figure out other people, so as not to waste too much time. It's just a numbers game, after all.

 

[Homburg]

I think a lot of the problem is, especially on this forum, is the emphasis on TPE or nothing at all. There are a whole lot of shades of gray between vanilla and TPE. But I think a lot of folks get caught up in the notion that if it's not TPE, it's not really dominance or submission or whatever. I wouldn't call myself a dabbler, either, but I have zero desire whatsoever for TPE in any relationship. Just not my thing. Am I, then, a time-waster? I don't think so, but there are those who would say I am. There are those who'd say I'm a greedy bitch who can't make up my mind either because of the bi poly switch thing, too, but whatever. *Shrug*

I mean, I get the frustration. If I have to talk to another guy who thinks "domination" means me tying him to the bed, giving him a blowjob, and nailing him ass with a strap-on, I think I might lose my mind. It's like that quote you told me, H. What, 80% of the people who are supposedly into BDSM are into it 'cause they think it makes 'em look cool? It makes the other 20% have a hard time finding each other, y'know? (And I'd wager that those numbers are pretty close to being correct, or else somewhat optimistic, based on what I've seen here and in various other venues, real-time and online.)

I got it from kajira callista.

I would not call you a dabbler. No, you're not TPE, but you are serious about your kinks. You have explored them, have looked into them, gone to events, gotten instruction, etc. The dabbler is the "tie me to the bed, give me a blow job, and bang me in ass with a strap-on" guy, the fantasist that sees you or me as a walking dispenser of their fetishes. Dilletantes who think it makes them look cool, period.

I've played with dabbler. A friend of mine is in it because she thinks it's cool, but I see the seeds of honest need for kink in her. Actually, a solid number of the bottoms that you see in my ropework thread are dabblers (a couple of which are still fuck-all good rope bottoms, dabbler or not). So I don't have a problem with them per se. I have a problem with the folks that talk a big game and turn out to be furry-handcuff types.

 

[PrincessGoddess]

BiBunny, you can say that again...

In my relationships, I have not practiced TPE. Call me a "maverickess", but all of my partners practiced more of a part-time TPE, which I know does not even sound right. Perhaps this could be the cause of what has so unsettled me today. In our homes, TPE began when we both got off work, and ended when we left for work the next time. Perhaps out of convienence, but maybe also due to our daily constraints, I was left unfulfilled, which is not the way one should be living.

 

[licker4450]

This is a wonderrul topic and one that has a variety of viewpoints-obviously.

For me, the Internet is a wonderful tool. Yet it is just that. I have used it to start interactions with slaves online. At present, one of my real time slaves is one I initially met online. When we first started, she was new to this, so it was a way for me to begin training her. Things such as protocol, minor assignments, and tests in loyalty all can be done through this medium. Nevertheless, nothing can replace the face-to-face meetings.

To weed some out, I start all serious conversations with potential slaves by finding out her willingness to relocate. If one is not willing to move offline, then for me there is no point to proceed forward. I am not into online playing even though I do a great deal online. The Net is a great way to find people while extending your reach. However, it also lacks the personal interaction that realtime offers.

So what does this all mean? For me, it is a part of the process but not the entire enchalada. The relationship can start online but if it doesnt move forward, there is no relationsip.

 

[licker4450]

As for the total power exchange, I always tell people that a relationship can be structured however the two people invovled in it desire. For me, I am into the TPE lifestyle. My slaves are also in agreement with this. Because of this, I accept the responsibility that goes along with it (yes guys there is responsibility that goes along with being a Master).

The most important thing is that both people discuss this matter before getting into it. If One is looking for more than one is willing to offer, that will create conflict in the future. Communication is the key.

Here is a suggestion to all newcomers: the skills that you have in dealing with the other relationships in your life also come into play here. I see so many throw commonsense out the window when entering into this lifestyle. Dont do that. Remember that any relationship in the bdsm world is a relationship. This is true whether it is a M/s, D/s, sexual only, or anything other variation off these. Use your head and remember that safety is of the highest priority.

 

[PrincessGoddess]

So, let;s see if we can use the web to our advantage

I believe that all of us, myself included, are not putting forth the effort necessary to make this online world function better for US. If we fail to master the information overload, we then become slaves to it through simply being overwhelmed by it. I believe strongly that we must, as a segment of society, do a much better job of policing ourselves. Not only in raising our expectations of others we come into contact with, but in demanding a greater self-effort of ourselves to build networking tools to mitigate the time we lose on pretenders and those who are not dabblers, but abusers of the system.

The internet is too large to create a reporting system that we could turn to as a sole source of information to compare a user's IP address with their proclivity for abuse. Such a system is inherently cumbersome, and the work necessary to build such a system would not stand scrutiny under a time investment / benefit analysis. But we can compartmentalize such a system that will make it workable. For example, a thread could be started on Lit. We could call it "online lifestyle fakes". In this thread, a user name of the offender could go in the subject of the post, and a statement of their offemding actions in the body. And we can repeat this process throughout our community. This will allow us to become proactive and finally begin to actually do something about this problem, instead of just talking about it.

 

[Big Poppa]

@kathykitten...


Some people just want the bedroom kink, and I believe what the hardcore vets here on the board complain about are the people who fake being in the lifestyle to find a real PYL/pyl to carry out their fantasies instead of just trying to find osmeone else who wants to play.

While it makes it hard for the vets to find their respective PYL/pyl, it also makes it harder for us genuine newbies to do the same. No one likes being outted due to someone elses stupidity

 

[Metomorphoses]

I believe that all of us, myself included, are not putting forth the effort necessary to make this online world function better for US. If we fail to master the information overload, we then become slaves to it through simply being overwhelmed by it. I believe strongly that we must, as a segment of society, do a much better job of policing ourselves. Not only in raising our expectations of others we come into contact with, but in demanding a greater self-effort of ourselves to build networking tools to mitigate the time we lose on pretenders and those who are not dabblers, but abusers of the system.

The internet is too large to create a reporting system that we could turn to as a sole source of information to compare a user's IP address with their proclivity for abuse. Such a system is inherently cumbersome, and the work necessary to build such a system would not stand scrutiny under a time investment / benefit analysis. But we can compartmentalize such a system that will make it workable. For example, a thread could be started on Lit. We could call it "online lifestyle fakes". In this thread, a user name of the offender could go in the subject of the post, and a statement of their offemding actions in the body. And we can repeat this process throughout our community. This will allow us to become proactive and finally begin to actually do something about this problem, instead of just talking about it.

The problem, however, is who decides what a "fake" is, in BDSM terminology?

By some definitions, *I* would qualify as a fake, because I choose to study/experience D/s from a theoretical standpoint, rather than within the confines of a "real BDSM relationship." I have knowledge out the yin-yang, yet I do not engage in "cyber" relationships, nor have I experienced "real" D/s - so am I "real" or am I "fake?"

BTW, you might get a chuckle out of this thread, and this one, as well.

 

[Homburg]

The problem, however, is who decides what a "fake" is, in BDSM terminology?

By some definitions, *I* would qualify as a fake, because I choose to study/experience D/s from a theoretical standpoint, rather than within the confines of a "real BDSM relationship." I have knowledge out the yin-yang, yet I do not engage in "cyber" relationships, nor have I experienced "real" D/s - so am I "real" or am I "fake?"

I would think the difference here is self-evident. You are essentially "outing" yourself by discussing your credentials, or lack thereof. By default, this means you are not "fake" as you are not trying to protray yourself as anything other than you are. And this goes back to a point I made earlier. People like yourself that describe your experiences plainly and in clear language are, to my eyes, vastly more valuable and worthwhile than folk that puff up their level of experience or involvement in order to attract a potential mate.