Facts, figures, and morons

[S-Des]

What's the strangest thing you've received a complaint about in a story? Not something huge, like your character's choices, but something completely insignificant that bothered a reader enough to say it hurt the overall story.

I had a 3 chapter story called 'After The Fact' which scored very well in the LW category. It received some comments that baffled me about the wife waiting 24 hours to tell her husband she was pregnant because she wanted to go to the doctor to be sure first. She had already hurt him and didn't want to give him false news. The night she found out, she told her sister. The next day she asked the husband out to dinner to tell him there. She invited their two close friends and let them know about the secret (a couple of hours before he found out). Several people said it ruined the story for them because she lied.

Now I just got my second complaint that she couldn't have realistically surprised him with the news because all husbands know their wife's menstrual cycles so well, that when she was late (by two weeks), he would have known she was pregnant. Ignoring the fact that I wrote that she had been sick and they hadn't been intimate for weeks (so she could have had it without telling him), I was floored because the only woman I ever lived with had such an inconsistent cycle that she would sometimes skip a month (and was routinely a week or two off). Plus, do guys really know that?

Anyway, it had me pulling my hair out about why in a story with ridiculously over the top drama, this would be the thing that set people off. When they get into such small details (assuming they know facts that we don't), how in the world can we write stuff that will seem acceptable? I know I take my chances in the LW category, but that just seemed nuts (or am I the crazy one?).

Anyone else have a bizarre, "Fact checker" story?

 

[BlackShanglan]

I haven't had a complaint as such, but did have one comment to which I responded by indicating how much more research I had done than most people would care to in order to address the anatomical elements of the relationship in "Will." There are certain questions one really doesn't care to ask one's usual veterinarian.

 

[3113]

It received some comments that baffled me about the wife waiting 24 hours to tell her husband she was pregnant because she wanted to go to the doctor to be sure first. She had already hurt him and didn't want to give him false news. The night she found out, she told her sister. The next day she asked the husband out to dinner to tell him there. She invited their two close friends and let them know about the secret (a couple of hours before he found out). Several people said it ruined the story for them because she lied.

Okay, I can *kinda* understand these, because a husband is the FIRST person a wife should want to tell...and, currently, when people get preggers these days they wait up till the end of the first trimester to tell others the news--most especially friends if not family. This is because a woman is likely to miscarry in those first three months. So doctors recomment that they don't go spreading the news around until it's a sure thing.

So the wife telling sister and friends FIRST would seem to be a betrayal of affection, etc. And no reason you give for her doing this is going to be a good enough excuse. If she's hurt him and want to make it up to him, then she shouldn't let others in on a secret that belongs to THEM and ONLY THEM as a couple first and formost.

See? This other complaint, however.....

Now I just got my second complaint that she couldn't have realistically surprised him with the news because all husbands know their wife's menstrual cycles so well, that when she was late (by two weeks), he would have known she was pregnant.

Poppycock! Not unless she's regular as clockwork. Some women are. But a lot aren't. And a lot of things can alter a period--excersize, diet, etc. If she's incredibly regular, then, he might, indeed, notice that she hadn't brought out the tampons or whatever else she regularly uses, setting them out close to hand. And, in that case, neither sickness nor a lack of intimacy would interfere with him knowing, unless she was REALLY sick. I mean hospitalized sick.

Also, frankly speaking, he might notice that the familiar fragrance of that time of the month wasn't there, or that she wasn't going through familiar patterns of PMS that some women have. Again if she's VERY regular, then some guys look for the signs: Breasts tender (check), irratable (check), eating lots of chocolate (check)....cramps! (moon time has started! Repeat, we have menstruation!).

I'm only half joking there. But there are women who are never regular (as in your experienced)--and there are guys who don't pay attention (don't want to know--she's got her own bathroom and what goes on in there is HER business, don't wanna know about it!). In those instances, all bets are off.

When they get into such small details (assuming they know facts that we don't), how in the world can we write stuff that will seem acceptable? I know I take my chances in the LW category, but that just seemed nuts (or am I the crazy one?)

Well, you do take yourlife in your hands in the LW category. People who read and comment on those stories are all a bit crazy.

That said, versimiltude is in the details. The little details can make or break a story because they help the reader to believe and go along with coincidences, melodrama, wild action, etc. The more you want the reader to believe, the more those details have to be real in order to support the *improbability* of the story line.

Jarringly wrong details can also stick out like a sore thumb, interrupting the flow of the narrative. Imagine you're reading a story, fully engaged, and then, suddenly you read the line: "He hit the baseball, ran and made a touchdown--" And you stop. Wait. Touchdown? This is baseball! Suddenly, your mind and reading has been derailed. Is this an alternate universe?--or is this just a stupid mistake? Or does this person know nothing about American sports? The worse the mistake is, the harder it is to go back to reading the story. So maybe the nitpicking over the details isn't that crazy.

Your readers might have a point. Would you consider re-editing the story?

 

[S-Des]

Okay, I can *kinda* understand these, because a husband is the FIRST person a wife should want to tell...and, currently, when people get preggers these days they wait up till the end of the first trimester to tell others the news--most especially friends if not family. This is because a woman is likely to miscarry in those first three months. So doctors recomment that they don't go spreading the news around until it's a sure thing.

So the wife telling sister and friends FIRST would seem to be a betrayal of affection, etc. And no reason you give for her doing this is going to be a good enough excuse. If she's hurt him and want to make it up to him, then she shouldn't let others in on a secret that belongs to THEM and ONLY THEM as a couple first and formost.

That said, versimiltude is in the details. The little details can make or break a story because they help the reader to believe and go along with coincidences, melodrama, wild action, etc. The more you want the reader to believe, the more those details have to be real in order to support the *improbability* of the story line.

Jarringly wrong details can also stick out like a sore thumb, interrupting the flow of the narrative. Imagine you're reading a story, fully engaged, and then, suddenly you read the line: "He hit the baseball, ran and made a touchdown--" And you stop. Wait. Touchdown? This is baseball! Suddenly, your mind and reading has been derailed. Is this an alternate universe?--or is this just a stupid mistake? Or does this person know nothing about American sports? The worse the mistake is, the harder it is to go back to reading the story. So maybe the nitpicking over the details isn't that crazy.

Your readers might have a point. Would you consider re-editing the story?

There's no way to change the details there without rewriting the end. I guess the problem is just perspective. To me, it would make no difference who she told first (unless she was intentionally trying to hide it for an ulterior motive). When my ex told me she was pregnant, it never occured to me to be worried about someone else knowing. That's why I wrote it that way. I guess it's very different to others.

After seeing your opinion, I guess I can see their point. At least I could edit so that the friends only knew there was a big surprise, but not about what (Kanga suggested that, and now I know to always listen to her). The sister finding out is key to what happens. He overhears and misunderstands, thinking their marriage is in trouble again, which shows him how long he still has to go for everything to be right between them. It's kind of unbreakable, but maybe if I leave off the friends knowing, people would be less annoyed about her telling her sister. In the specific situation, I really do believe that it's appropriate for her to wait until she's sure before she tells him.

Thanks for knocking down my argument. You're no fun at all.

 

[3113]

When my ex told me she was pregnant, it never occured to me to be worried about someone else knowing. That's why I wrote it that way. I guess it's very different to others.

It's not so much a matter of what the guy thinks about her telling others first--but what the readers think of her for doing that. It does seem rather obnoxious to spread the news, so early and immediately, to others before you tell your dearest partner--the father of the baby.

However, I could see her telling a sister, especially if they've always been very close.

Thanks for knocking down my argument.

Hey, it's what I'm here for. Anytime

 

[BlackShanglan]

Okay, I can *kinda* understand these, because a husband is the FIRST person a wife should want to tell...and, currently, when people get preggers these days they wait up till the end of the first trimester to tell others the news--most especially friends if not family. This is because a woman is likely to miscarry in those first three months. So doctors recomment that they don't go spreading the news around until it's a sure thing.

So the wife telling sister and friends FIRST would seem to be a betrayal of affection, etc. And no reason you give for her doing this is going to be a good enough excuse. If she's hurt him and want to make it up to him, then she shouldn't let others in on a secret that belongs to THEM and ONLY THEM as a couple first and formost.

See? This other complaint, however.....

You know, this is interesting. I have known many people who saw it this way. I've also known others who told a number of their closest female friends and/or relatives before telling the husband. In some cases it was about who was nearest or didn't have to be interrupted at work; in other cases, though, it seemed that they felt a desire to talk about it with a woman first. Perhaps they felt that a mother or sister who'd had children already would have a reassuring response ready for a nervous first-time mother-to-be, or perhaps they felt that a female friend would understand their feelings completely in a way that a man could not. Possibly some of them were nervous as well as excited, and wanted to get any attacks of nerves or fear out of the way in order to be wholly happy and glowing when they told their husbands. In fact, I might think it would be rather more than less likely for your character to talk to someone first if there was already a problem that had caused bad feelings between her and her husband; if she felt vulnerable and uncertain if he had forgiven her and was ready for the news, she might very well seek a little bucking up and cheering up by talking to someone else first.

Whatever the motivation, I have seen people go that way; in its own way, it's made as much sense to me as telling the husband first. It's true that some people regard their pregnancies as very personal, couple-only events largely centered on those two people; it's also true that many don't, particularly those with very close families or groups of friends. It seems to me to be an issue that varies from person to person - as does the matter of when one announces a pregnancy, for I have seen that approached in a number of ways as well.

Perhaps one way to work with the issue of who is told what and when in the story would be to bring out some of the reasons why the character chooses to speak to others first?

Shanglan

 

[Aurora Black]

More annoying than bizarre, I'd say. I've gotten several complaints about the beginning of "Another Lonely Christmas," when Vivian is watching the annual crapfest that is holiday television:

Vivian finished the toddy, sighing as the warmth pooled in her belly. She placed the empty mug on the coffee table and reached for the remote control. She absentmindedly flicked through the channels, quickly dismissing the special Christmas episodes of the sitcoms, cartoons, and what had to be the billionth broadcast of "It's A Wonderful Life."

Now these smartasses were nitpicking over my reference to the movie!

Great Story BUT
12/21/05 By: Anonymous

As a big fan of IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE, I have to tell you that it is no longer shown ad infinitum on television. NBC bought the rights to the movie and for the last few years it has only been shown once during the Christmas season. Picky Picky, I know...but its the little details that I notice!

Otherwise, GREAT JOB!

Some people have way too much time on their hands.

 

[3113]

Perhaps one way to work with the issue of who is told what and when in the story would be to bring out some of the reasons why the character chooses to speak to others first?

Shanglan

Too many notes, Shanglan

We're in the what-true vs. what-readers-believe category here. As you say, some women spill everything to friends before their husband, including something most folk consider so personal and important as a first pregnancy. BUT just because it's true doesn't mean readers view it as a positive or true thing for THIS woman to do it. Clearly, from the comments (i.e., that there's more than one on this topic) they view it quite negatively.

So, to keep the scene of her telling her friends, the writer either has to add in a long-ass explaination that MIGHT or might not satisfiy readers OR he needs to re-write the wife so readers know early on that she's the type to run things by her friends before her husband (and that husband is okay with this and it's just the way things are in that family).

Occams Razor of writing (at least in my book): if it takes too much effort and long-assed explainations to make it work, it isn't working. Unless the scene with the friends is essential to the plot, it seems easier to me to just edit out the friends and give a little more emphasis to the closeness between sisters.

 

[S-Des]

Too many notes, Shanglan

We're in the what-true vs. what-readers-believe category here. As you say, some women spill everything to friends before their husband, including something most folk consider so personal and important as a first pregnancy. BUT just because it's true doesn't mean readers view it as a positive or true thing for THIS woman to do it. Clearly, from the comments (i.e., that there's more than one on this topic) they view it quite negatively.

So, to keep the scene of her telling her friends, the writer either has to add in a long-ass explaination that MIGHT or might not satisfiy readers OR he needs to re-write the wife so readers know early on that she's the type to run things by her friends before her husband (and that husband is okay with this and it's just the way things are in that family).

Occams Razor of writing (at least in my book): if it takes too much effort and long-assed explainations to make it work, it isn't working. Unless the scene with the friends is essential to the plot, it seems easier to me to just edit out the friends and give a little more emphasis to the closeness between sisters.

I'm in agreement (with both of you). As I said, it wouldn't have bothered me, if I was the guy, which is why I wrote it that way. However, 3113 is right, it's such a non-issue, why give myself the headache?

I ran my my new story by a friend and he had a problem with Ch2. The police call a man who left his wife earlier. She had feinted while reading his goodbye note and hit her head. Now she was unconscious in the hospital and they wanted to question him about it. My friend confidently told me the police wouldn't ask him to come in, but would show up at his door. I know differently (personally), but didn't feel like arguing about such a small point (and who knows how many others would have had a similar objection), so I changed it.

I was surprised at people giving the way Jenny told him about the pregnancy more than a 2nd glance (especially the thing about him knowing her cycle). It seemed funny to me, so I wondered if I was the only one or did this happen to everybody. Or, are you all so careful that you manage to avoid this kind of problem. I'm still such a beginner, I have no idea if I'm doing everything right.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Too many notes, Shanglan

We're in the what-true vs. what-readers-believe category here. As you say, some women spill everything to friends before their husband, including something most folk consider so personal and important as a first pregnancy. BUT just because it's true doesn't mean readers view it as a positive or true thing for THIS woman to do it. Clearly, from the comments (i.e., that there's more than one on this topic) they view it quite negatively.

So, to keep the scene of her telling her friends, the writer either has to add in a long-ass explaination that MIGHT or might not satisfiy readers OR he needs to re-write the wife so readers know early on that she's the type to run things by her friends before her husband (and that husband is okay with this and it's just the way things are in that family).

Occams Razor of writing (at least in my book): if it takes too much effort and long-assed explainations to make it work, it isn't working. Unless the scene with the friends is essential to the plot, it seems easier to me to just edit out the friends and give a little more emphasis to the closeness between sisters.

I think here we will have to disagree. I feel that characterization of the lead, by its nature, should let us know what sort of person she is and how she feels about this major life-affecting event, regardless of where the plot is going. If that characterization is present and consistent, her choices will make sense. If, indeed, the character has no clear motivation for doing this and it requires a contrived explanation, then there is a problem - but it's not really with the pregnancy news then so much as with the characterization of the lead and the author's understanding of her motives. I'm assuming, not having read the story, that the author has done that job well and that the character's decision not to tell others is rooted in who she is and how she feels about the circumstance. In that case, it would probably only take a light touch here or there to bring out more clearly her reasons for telling others first.

Shanglan

(ETA - With the author's notes, posted as I posted, I see that the issue was not strongly rooted in characterization. In that case, as noted, I would indeed let it go.)

 

[S-Des]

More annoying than bizarre, I'd say. I've gotten several complaints about the beginning of "Another Lonely Christmas," when Vivian is watching the annual crapfest that is holiday television:

Vivian finished the toddy, sighing as the warmth pooled in her belly. She placed the empty mug on the coffee table and reached for the remote control. She absentmindedly flicked through the channels, quickly dismissing the special Christmas episodes of the sitcoms, cartoons, and what had to be the billionth broadcast of "It's A Wonderful Life."

Now these smartasses were nitpicking over my reference to the movie!



Some people have way too much time on their hands.

That's what I mean. You make a pop culture reference and suddenly there's an issue. Does that mean we're not supposed to say anything that might annoy a reader?

BTW, I know it makes me a goof, but I love that stupid movie (no matter how many times I've seen it).

 

[Aurora Black]

Another such comment was made on "Be Mine" about the type of magic used. I've since deleted the comment because it lent nothing constructive whatsoever, but the person gave me a 25% PC and complained that the magic described in the story was more Voodoo than Wicca.

 

[Guest]

LOL.... Rora I have had my share of things like that on stories I just sort of go.... ummmm what?

Lets see which comments really just made me go huh.... (searches through the archieves)

It was by the same author on my stories "The Ancient Rite" and "Earth Day with the Gods"... this 'author' who had submitted a few stories to the site was chastising me because I did not use the 'classically' accepted description of the Gods/Goddesses in my stories. Not only did they vote ones on the stories but they wrote these mind numbingly LONG comments understand that were not even just posts about the story but personal attacks on myself ("uneducated 'author' playing at knowing what they are talking about and ruining mythology in the process"), then I received feedback directly mailed to me. So I got a triple whammy there for those two from that one person.

 

[MissBri]

 

[Guest]

I wonder if that's the same person who scolded me, saying that if Hestia had hidden depths, they were not the depths of her vagina.

Dies laughing

maybe

 

[Boota]

I had two complaints sent to me about The Man In The Woods. Number one was because I didn't give penis and breast sizes. I responded to the email with, "How big do you want them to be?"

Number two was someone who said that the insinuated pregnancy (ie - a "consequence") absolutely ruined the story for them. I can see where someone might feel that way in a fantasy setting but, unfortunately, that is the point of the entire encounter mentioned in the story.

I've never gotten anything really bad, though. I usually get nekkid pictures from women who dug the story, so that more than makes up for any complaints.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Number two was someone who said that the insinuated pregnancy (ie - a "consequence") absolutely ruined the story for them. I can see where someone might feel that way in a fantasy setting but, unfortunately, that is the point of the entire encounter mentioned in the story.

I love those guys. There are two of them, and I think they operate as a team. One of them complains every time someone gets pregnant, and the other complains every time someone doesn't (which is particularly tricky when one is writing in the "Gay Male" category). They're lovely fun, right up there with Captain Condom and his arch-nemsis Bareback Boy. Commisserations for having caught their collective eye - the condom-oriented complaints can't be far behind.

Shanglan

 

[MissBri]

 

[3113]

I've never gotten anything really bad, though. I usually get nekkid pictures from women who dug the story, so that more than makes up for any complaints.

That is SO not fair! Where are my naked pictures? Preferably naked men, but darn it, I'll take any I can get--show me the love people!

 

[BlackShanglan]

(Do they actually use those names!?)

Well ... they ought to. Or as the Tick says, "I'm not making it up; I'm making it good."

They don't use those particular monikers, but they are definitely out there. One of them actually used to leave smug little notes as if he was the maven of taste to all of Literotica, something like "It's very simple, people. Use a condom, get a 1."

Charming, eh?

Shanglan

 

[MissBri]

 

[Boota]

That is SO not fair! Where are my naked pictures? Preferably naked men, but darn it, I'll take any I can get--show me the love people!

I was surprised when it first happened. Then it almost became expected. LOL. I ended up losing the pics when my computer crashed, but I had pics of 11 different women, some in the process of "enjoying" my story. I got a couple more the other day. I get flashed a lot in real life, too. My girlfriend says that women just really want to show me what they've got, for some reason. I'm not complaining.

 

[3113]

That's what I mean. You make a pop culture reference and suddenly there's an issue. Does that mean we're not supposed to say anything that might annoy a reader?

Nah. There's no way to please everyone. BUT, sometimes the facts, rather than hamstringing you, can open up the story, make it more interesting. Like whether the police go to the guy's door or call him in. It might make for a more interesting scene if the police show up at the door, pounding on it, waking him up, scaring the shit out of him.

Other times, of course, the facts screw up the story and you have to work around them, but I'd rather try to have them and work with them than be sloppy. Then again, I'm a maschocist when it comes to writing. I always make it hard on myself. And I'm a nit-picker myself. I got on Tom Collin's case about a story set in the 60's which didn't ring true--T.C. immediately drafted me as editor in punishment. The story was moved up to the 70's to make it work--turned out very sexy.

As for the feedback I've gotten on details: I've actually had some good feedback that helped me a lot. One writer pointed out to me a really bad error I'd made--and though it was rather rudely put, I was glad to get it as it saved me embarassment.

Recently, a guy corrected me on my having a football player say "Major Leagues" rather than "NFL"--nit-picky, but I think it's valid. It's no biggie to fix it and I wanted my football player real rather than, as in so many stroke stories, just a generic football player. So I did some editing. I like having things right, myself, and if someone says "That's not technically right," and they know what they're talking about, I'll usually listen.

But there does come a point where decisions have to be made for the story's sake. I wrote about a leather bar and had Dusk Peterson (an expert of sorts) edit it for realism--but there came a point where I had to fudge things for the sake of the story. For example, I was told that there WERE some bars that now had "leather-fems" in regular attendance rather than just "Leather dykes." That, however, was not going to work for my story. So, I emphasized that my bar was small, obscure and a little behind the times and boldly had a character say that the bar just did not get female-females, that not even the dykes brought them in.

It was essential for the story that my fem be a rarity in the bar--and I think of it as only a bit of a fudge as it's not like I name the city or state where my bar is. So no leatherguy is likely to say, "I go to bars in that state and they're filled with leather-fems!"

If its only a fudge and the story needs it, then fudge it.

 

[kendo1]

Donal' is not accurate because it wasn't written in Gaelic.
Everyone knows Gaelic was spoken in the Highland in the 18th C!

That figures.
I'd sure get a lot of readers.

 

[Guest]

I was surprised when it first happened. Then it almost became expected. LOL. I ended up losing the pics when my computer crashed, but I had pics of 11 different women, some in the process of "enjoying" my story. I got a couple more the other day. I get flashed a lot in real life, too. My girlfriend says that women just really want to show me what they've got, for some reason. I'm not complaining.

(total threadjack)

Ummmm Boota..... your AV.... and you're wondering WHY women want to show you what they have.... great Goddess.... *mutters*

(/end total threadjack)