explantion points

[timelord1963]

I have been reading conflicting grammar usage for the explanation point .

I have read that you could put it on either side of a question mark (before is less expressive than after)

and other places they do not even mention that rule at all.

What is right.

 

[NotWise]

I have been reading conflicting grammar usage for the explanation point .

I have read that you could put it on either side of a question mark (before is less expressive than after)

and other places they do not even mention that rule at all.

What is right.

Do you mean exclamation point ("!") ?

I didn't know there was any proper combination of a question mark and an exclamation point.

 

[MindsMirror]

Are you asking about exclamation point with question mark?
-MM

 

[sr71plt]

You don't see the exclamation point mentioned much, because its use is frowned upon altogether. It's considered an indication of weakness in conveying the emotion in the context of the text. If you use it with a question mark, I don't think anyone cares much what order you put them in, although I think it makes sense to put the question mark first, as it's more important that the sentence is a question than that it was screamed.

 

[plesmore]

I have been reading conflicting grammar usage for the explanation point .

I have read that you could put it on either side of a question mark (before is less expressive than after)

and other places they do not even mention that rule at all.

What is right.

There is no rule. I prefer the question mark to close the sentence, so you can follow me if you like.........

 

[plesmore]

Do you mean exclamation point ("!") ?

I didn't know there was any proper combination of a question mark and an exclamation point.

Why didn't you know!?

 

[OliviaM]

I just want to say how much I love the phrase "explanation point". It's making me laugh, but I sincerely love it. We could probably benefit from one of those.

Assuming you mean an exclamation point, I was curious, so I googled it.

The correct form is to use one or the other:

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/exclamation-point.html
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Punctuation/faq0004.html

When people do use them together, in less formal writing, the most common order seems to be "?!". I use that myself.

 

[MindsMirror]

The interrobang link we posted above is almost never used
‽

-MM

 

[NotWise]

I don't think anyone cares much what order you put them in, although I think it makes sense to put the question mark first, as it's more important that the sentence is a question than that it was screamed.

I can see a point to exclamation points in dialog, especially where you're telling the story largely through dialog. There might not be a lot of narrative context to make it clear that the speaker is excited, or the excitement might grow in the course of the dialog.

Some people find the absence of exclamation points to be bothersome. I was talking once with a woman about F. Scott Fitzgerald's writing and she complained that it was very "plain" because it didn't have exclamation points.

I see your point to the order, it's the difference between the punctuation saying "excitedly asked" or "asked excitedly." If I had to pick one of those it would be the latter. I'd rather not pick either.

 

[sr71plt]

I can see a point to exclamation points in dialog, especially where you're telling the story largely through dialog. There might not be a lot of narrative context to make it clear that the speaker is excited, or the excitement might grow in the course of the dialog.

Some people find the absence of exclamation points to be bothersome. I was talking once with a woman about F. Scott Fitzgerald's writing and she complained that it was very "plain" because it didn't have exclamation points.

I see your point to the order, it's the difference between the punctuation saying "excitedly asked" or "asked excitedly." If I had to pick one of those it would be the latter. I'd rather not pick either.

I use an exclamation point myself occasionally--not more than a couple of times per story, though, or it loses its effect. And, yes, only in dialogue (although I can conceive of a narrator's voice that would use them).

 

[NotWise]

I use an exclamation point myself occasionally--not more than a couple of times per story, though, or it loses its effect. And, yes, only in dialogue (although I can conceive of a narrator's voice that would use them).

I need to toy with the narrator's voice a little more. It might be a matter of experience and comfort in self expression, but for now I think of my narrator as invisible. Exclamation points in narration make the narrator visible.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I need to toy with the narrator's voice a little more. It might be a matter of experience and comfort in self expression, but for now I think of my narrator as invisible. Exclamation points in narration make the narrator visible.

I think you can have a quite active narrator, which also opens up the whole idea of the unreliable narrator. I'm finding in my latest story my narrator is expressing views of his own, they pop out of somewhere, that's for sure. Some of the views are mine, but others, I'm not so sure.

It makes for multiple layers: story, characters, narrator's commentary on story and character, and somewhere in the mix is the writer. It's easy to get lost.

 

[NotWise]

I think you can have a quite active narrator, which also opens up the whole idea of the unreliable narrator. I'm finding in my latest story my narrator is expressing views of his own, they pop out of somewhere, that's for sure. Some of the views are mine, but others, I'm not so sure.

It makes for multiple layers: story, characters, narrator's commentary on story and character, and somewhere in the mix is the writer. It's easy to get lost.

I once brought up some of those possibilities on a distant thread and was discouraged from it. The argument being that if the narrator had much personality then you were in a space between third person and first person that would be confusing to readers.

I still think it's a good idea to give the narrator some character, but I'll wait until I have more experience before I go there. The possibilities are interesting, but I think the skill required might be beyond me right now.

An unreliable narrator--um, shouldn't that just be first person?

 

[SamScribble]

I seem to recall, a few years ago, there was a move to formalise a mark that was a combination of ! followed by ? - !? It even had a name. But I can't remember what it was. Suffice to say that it does not seem to have caught on.

 

[NotWise]

Why didn't you know!?

I've assumed before that someone's typo had the obvious explanation and then found out that it had a completely different meaning.

The OP hasn't responded, so it's possible that the whole thread is based on the wrong premise.

 

[legerdemer]

... ?!?

 

[NotWise]

... ?!?

Does that mean that you asked in a excited way then wondered why you cared?

 

[TxRad]

Does that mean that you asked in a excited way then wondered why you cared?

Is a more likely explanation.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Like most things around here, theyre great on pizza or corn flakes or even a atop a bowl of beets.

 

[legerdemer]

Does that mean that you asked in a excited way then wondered why you cared?

Is a more likely explanation.

This ^^^

 

[CarlusMagnus]

Is a more likely explanation.

But the real question, which no one has addressed, is this: What's an explantion point?

And then, I suppose, we must ask how those symbols are used in conjunction with question marks.

 

[ElectricBlue]

An unreliable narrator--um, shouldn't that just be first person?

Can be, yes. Some of my first person narrators have been most unreliable - one low bastard kept stealing all of my favourite women!

But you can also have an unreliable omniscient narrator, it all comes down to how much "personality" you give your narrator. I'm finding the omniscient narrator in my latest story is not very impartial.

Michel Faber (Crimson Petal and the White) gives you a very chatty narrator.

 

[Hypoxia]

But the real question, which no one has addressed, is this: What's an explantion point?

I wondered that when I first saw the thread title. I visualized, not a punctuation character, but a pedantic, explanatory text, hopefully brief. Something like:

"She was two meters (that's eighty inches, six foot eight) of sheer ineptitude."​

The parenthetical material is the explanation point. Alas, I've been known to introduce such into my writing. So sue me.

 

[Nezhul]

Exclamations are used mainly in the dialogue. Or, if told from 1st-person in narration, but only when you describe the inner thoughts of the character. So basically it's like inner dialogue without quotes anyway.

Exclamations are used to show that the line is not so much shouted as snapped or, well, exclaimed. It shows not the tone or the volume of voice, but that the words are momentary, snapped angrily or exclaimed in joy or frustration.

As for "?!" - I try to avoid it. It's too much, most of the times. However I do think that it can be used in a dialogue - but very carefully. Once or twice in a novel is probably OK, granted that the situation REALLY calls for it.

My reasoning is that questions are almost always thought through. While exclamations are almost always automatic, blurted without much conscious thought behind them. It's really hard to exclaim a question, but it happens.

"I just killed a man."
"What?!"
Here it's more or less appropriate, because the question is snappy, and it's more like an exclamation than a question. It doesn't require an answer, however you can't get rid of the question mark at all, because than this monosyllable loses all sense. That's why "?!" is justified here.

"I just killed a man."
"How could you do that?!"
Here I would get rid of the exclamation. It's much better to use attribution in this particular case, if you want to express the snappiness or the voice or emotion behind the words.
"I just killed a man."
"How could you do that?" he snapped, dropping the vase from his hands.
Note though, that such attribution will be called incorrect by many, because according to one outlook you can't "snap" the words - you can only say or ask them. There's a discussion about this here:
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1390448&highlight=attributions
I consciously chose to keep my style for now, until I'm forced to change it by the editor or someone. But you should be informed nevertheless. The absolutely correct variant would be:
"I just killed a man."
"How could you do that?" he said, dropping the vase from his hands.
or
"I just killed a man."
"How could you do that?" He was so shocked that he dropped the vase from his hands.
Note that the second one is not an attribution though, but the follow-up sentence, thus the capitalization.

As for the order of the question and exclamation marks, I agree with pilot. QUestion mark is what defines the sentence as a question, it's more important. Exclamation is a supportive sign that can arguably be discarded without any loss of meaning, so it comes last.

And yea. NEVER use more than one question mark or exclamation mark.
"What?!!!" "Hey!!!" "What???" "What?!!?!?!" - these are all wrong.

 

[Handley_Page]

I was under the impression that ?? or !! were not necessary and should not be used.