Evolution

R. Richard

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On remote Flores Island [the Lesser Sunda Islands of Indonesia,] scientists found the skull of a one meter tall woman. [The current inhabitants of Flores Island have legends of 'little people' who lived on the island during historic times.] In addition to the one skull, the scientists also found bones of several other individuals of the same size. The skull is different from modern human skulls. The skull is also different from microcephalic skulls. The skull and the bones were found in the same place with tools and evidence of fire. The conclusion is that the skull represents a new human species. [There are those who will fight this to the bitter end, because a new human species would prove human evolution.] The investigation of Flores Island is one of the most important lines of scientific research. However, the media does not follow it. Comment?

Scientists: Flores island "Hobbit" is new species
Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:39pm ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The tiny woman dubbed the Hobbit who lived 18,000 years ago on a remote Indonesian island deserves to be deemed a new human species and not a deformed modern human as skeptics assert, researchers said on Monday.

In the latest salvo in a heated scientific shootout, an international team led by Florida State University anthropologist Dean Falk compared the Hobbit's skull to those of nine people with microcephaly, a rare condition in which the head is abnormally small due to improper brain development.

They concluded the 3-foot-tall (1-meter) adult woman had a highly evolved brain, unlike that of a microcephalic person, confirming she belongs to the proposed extinct species Homo floresiensis, closely related to modern Homo sapiens.

"Lo and behold, it doesn't look anything like a microcephalic. In fact, it's antithetical," Falk said in an interview, rebutting scientists like primatologist Robert Martin of the Field Museum in Chicago who suggest the skull came from a person with microcephaly.

A previous study by Falk had been criticized because it compared the Hobbit, with a brain a third the size of modern people, to just a single microcephalic skull.

Martin remained unconvinced. "My gut feeling is what they (Falk's team) did is just played around with the measurements until they got something that suited them," Martin said.

Martin said the new study was flawed, questioned whether Falk's team knew enough about microcephaly and insisted the question of a separate species is unresolved.

The study appears in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Michael Morwood, part of the group that discovered the remains, is a co-author.

WONDROUS PLACE

Scientists in 2003 found the bones in a cave on the island of Flores east of Bali, contending they were a previously unknown species living at a time the species Homo sapiens was thought to have been the world's only human inhabitant.

These little people -- bones from several other individuals also were found -- lived in a wondrous place populated by strange animals like pygmy elephants and large rodents. In this isolated locale, evolutionary forces stemming from limited resources may have pushed some inhabitants toward dwarfism and others toward gigantism.

Tools and evidence of fire were found near the bones of the adult female, dubbed the Hobbit after the small people in the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Falk's team compared three-dimensional, computer-generated reconstructions of the brain of the Hobbit to those of nine microcephalics from all over the world and 10 normal people.

Two features in the frontal lobes and a structure called the cerebellum separated the two groups, with the Flores woman fitting in with normal humans, not microcephalics, the study found. But she was unlike modern humans in four other features distinguishing her from Homo sapiens, crying out for recognition as a separate species, the researchers said.

Falk said the origin of this new species is now the key question, adding she is open to the possibility it descended from Australopithecenes, ape-like human ancestors, or was a dwarf form of the extinct species Homo erectus.

Martin said it is possible it is a new species. "But the other strong possibility is that this is actually just a pathological modern human," Martin added.

"At the end of the day, hopefully, the truth will come out," Martin added. "And I'm not mad enough to think I'm right about everything. But there are ways of doing it and ways of not doing it."
 
Maybe she's just an alien...the little blue ones are short i think.
 
Interesting.

I'll have to see more before I can make an informed decision but it doesn't surprise me in the least.

Cat
 
There was a special on the Discovery channel some months ago about this - very interesting.

Humans evolved differently depending on what area of the world they lived in, hence all our glorious differences. I don't see why this wouldn't be possible, as well.
 
cloudy said:
There was a special on the Discovery channel some months ago about this - very interesting.

Humans evolved differently depending on what area of the world they lived in, hence all our glorious differences. I don't see why this wouldn't be possible, as well.

It is interesting. It is also dangerous to those whose beliefs don't allow for evolution. Thus, there will be very heavy sniping unless and until the evidence becomes overwhelming. If the critic in the article had used the words he used against trained scientists for other than evolution or human migration, he would be ostracized by the scientific community. Only time will tell.
 
R. Richard said:
No, no, no! Those are smurfs, not aliens.
"smurf skulls found in indonesia"
i really should work for the weekly world news
 
R. Richard said:
Sorry, that is a premium feature of this thread, available only as an extra cost option.

And my Visa card's maxed out!

If you could see your way clear to advance me a small loan...
 
TE999 said:
And my Visa card's maxed out!

If you could see your way clear to advance me a small loan...

In hobbits we trust, all others pay cash!
 
Harry Leg said:
Maybe she's just an alien...the little blue ones are short i think.
They are grey, Roswell grey and short with big eyes, although I believe those are just their version of cool shades.
 
Zeb_Carter said:
They are grey, Roswell grey and short with big eyes, although I believe those are just their version of cool shades.
Cool shades you say? Well that would explain why we hardly ever recognize them.


Happy B-Day BTW.
Cheers
:D
 
Zeb_Carter said:
They are grey, Roswell grey and short with big eyes, although I believe those are just their version of cool shades.

Think Area 51!
 
Could it be she is just a midget? They are perfectly formed, except for being very small. The height sounds about right too.

I know by saying "midget" I am not being PC, but if I say "small person", people will look at me and saysomething like "Well, duh, of course.
 
Boxlicker101 said:
Could it be she is just a midget? They are perfectly formed, except for being very small. The height sounds about right too.

I know by saying "midget" I am not being PC, but if I say "small person", people will look at me and saysomething like "Well, duh, of course.

No, the article says that the skull is different from a modern human skull. Since the skull is also different from a microcephalic human skull, the conclusion is that the skull is of another type of human. The weak point is that there is only one 'hobbit' skull so far. I would guess that the research is so important that more expeditions will be funded to answer the question once and for all.
 
Still more positive evidence for a separate species. Comment?

Jawbone Added to 'Hobbit' Evidence

Scientists digging in a remote Indonesian cave have uncovered a jaw bone that they say adds more evidence that a tiny prehistoric Hobbit-like species once existed.

The jaw is from the ninth individual believed to have lived as recently as 12,000 years ago. The bones are in a wet cave on the island of Flores in the eastern limb of the Indonesian archipelago, near Australia.

The research team which reported the original sensational finding nearly a year ago strongly believes that the skeletons belong to a separate species of early human that shared Earth with modern humans far more recently than anyone thought.

The bones have enchanted many anthropologists who have come to accept the interpretation of these diminutive skeletons marooned on Flores with dwarf elephants and other miniaturized animals, giving the discovery a kind of fairy tale quality.

But a vocal scientific minority insists the specimens are nothing more than the bones of modern humans that suffered from microencephaly, a broadly defined genetic disorder that results in small brain size. The latest discovery on Flores to be published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature does not change their minds, they said, with one critic describing the latest artifacts as "pretty scrappy.''

And, at least two groups of opponents have submitted their own studies to other leading scientific journals refuting the Flores work.

The result is a controversy unlike any other in the often-contentious study of human origins. Those caught in the middle say the debate is a real test for what we know about human evolution.

Daniel E. Lieberman of the Peabody Museum at Harvard said the specimens are so unusual that they deserve a more detailed analysis in order to adequately answer the critics.

"Many syndromes can cause microencephaly and dwarfism and they all need to be considered,'' said Lieberman, who wrote a commentary in Nature. "The findings are not only astonishing, but also exciting because of the questions they raise.''

In the latest Nature study, the same team of Australian and Indonesian scientists working in trenches dug in Liang Bua cave found a variety of additional bones at various depths, suggesting the cave had been occupied for tens of thousands of years by several generations.

The most prominent specimen discovered in the latest batch is the lower jaw bone from a separate individual. Dating of charcoal nearby in the excavation layer suggests it is 15,000 years old.

They also found the right arm of the 18,000-year old female announced last year, as well as fragments of other skeletons.

The jaw reported now has a weaker chin with smaller tooth dimensions than last year's primary specimen, but otherwise shares the same characteristics.

Other artifacts in the cave include cut and charred bones of stegodon, a prehistoric pygmy elephant, and other animals, as well as a variety of sophisticated stone tools. The researchers said the artifacts offer further proof that the cave's tiny inhabitants were capable of advanced thinking and behavior, like cooperative hunting.

Critics say they have many lingering questions about the Flores discoveries.

"This paper doesn't clinch it. I feel strongly that people are glossing over the problems with this interpretation,'' said Robert Martin, a biological anthropologist and provost of the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago.

In Martin's view, the more likely scenario is that the specimens belonged to an extended family of modern humans, some of whom suffered from microencephaly, which often runs in families.

The critics challenge the reliability of the dating of bones and artifacts because only a few pieces of charcoal _ presumably from fire pits _ were analyzed. Also, water drainage may have helped jumble the older specimens with the more recent.

And, they argue, the stone tools found are of the type known to be made only by modern humans. The brain size of the specimens found suggest it's unlikely such a people could have used the tools.
 
Actually this is just another dead end. If they say that this species evolved on that island then it's a dead end in the evolutionary tree since they had no way off the island.

Now everyone knows we didn't evolve. We all got dropped off here by aliens that look like Thor in Stargage SG1. Come on People, wise up! :nana:

MJL
 
mjl2010 said:
Actually this is just another dead end. If they say that this species evolved on that island then it's a dead end in the evolutionary tree since they had no way off the island.

Now everyone knows we didn't evolve. We all got dropped off here by aliens that look like Thor in Stargage SG1. Come on People, wise up! :nana:

MJL

If they had no way off the island, how did they get there in the first place?
 
R. Richard said:
If they had no way off the island, how did they get there in the first place?

The aliens dropped them off silly. How else. :D

MJL
 
There is a quite respectable theory, by Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius (1859-1927) that life on earth developed from interplanetary spores. He thought life might have been carried from planet to planet by the transport of spores, a theory now known as panspermia. So, we may indeed have been transported here by aliens [more or less.]
 
R. Richard said:
There is a quite respectable theory, by Swedish scientist Svante Arrhenius (1859-1927) that life on earth developed from interplanetary spores. He thought life might have been carried from planet to planet by the transport of spores, a theory now known as panspermia. So, we may indeed have been transported here by aliens [more or less.]


Which means of course that those Thor like aliens just might exist somewhere. I was only half joking about that.

MJL
 
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