Ever start hating a character?

[Stella_Omega]

Uh-huh. She's a twitchy little bitch. My piece is written back and forth between first person and Al's POV. I finally negotiated a deal with Al- in which he doesn't lose anything, but may not win much either- fr a couple of marks on my soul, but Rachel is balking.

*kicks the litle witch right in her little red head*

She's about to have to stfu. I just screwed up her world royally- there's an elf in her bedroom and she's not wearing any clothes.

Umm...

Are there any female characters that you care for? Just yanno... an idle question. I'm taking notes.

 

[sr71plt]

I wonder why you picked this character to write about. If it's because you hate the character, just go with it and write her as a hateful character. There's no reason why that shouldn't be fun to do.

 

[FallingToFly]

I didn't hate her at all until this last part. 2000 words into the very last section, she decided to balk. I had to scrap all that (and the 3000 words before that had be scrapped because AL balked) and start over.

And I like female characters usually. I'm a big fan of several female-centric series (Mercedes Thompson, Riley Jensen) and I'm actually a huge fan of this series. I'm just afraid that if I give in to her demands, she's oing to become an Anita Blake- the uber-impossible badass Queen Bitch that emasculates every male character in the story. THAT makes me crazy- I want a female who is a female, not a chick with a bigger dick than every male in town, and a male who is still masculine and assertive in his own right. Balance, balance, balance.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I didn't hate her at all until this last part. 2000 words into the very last section, she decided to balk. I had to scrap all that (and the 3000 words before that had be scrapped because AL balked) and start over.

And I like female characters usually. I'm a big fan of several female-centric series (Mercedes Thompson, Riley Jensen) and I'm actually a huge fan of this series. I'm just afraid that if I give in to her demands, she's oing to become an Anita Blake- the uber-impossible badass Queen Bitch that emasculates every male character in the story. THAT makes me crazy- I want a female who is a female, not a chick with a bigger dick than every male in town, and a male who is still masculine and assertive in his own right. Balance, balance, balance.

See-- i want a badass female-- Although there are more of them than before, there are still a bazillion female females, and we know how to write them, the badass woman still needs more examples. Why do badass women have to "emasculate every male character," anyway? Even if they DO have a big dick, it doesn't have to be "bigger than every man's" WE all know someone who has a bigger dick that us.

Your gay male characters manage to achieve balance, right? How do they do it?

Why not give in to her demands and see what happens? maybe she knows better than you.

 

[FallingToFly]

See-- i want a badass female-- Although there are more of them than before, there are still a bazillion female females, and we know how to write them, the badass woman still needs more examples. Why do badass women have to "emasculate every male character," anyway? Even if they DO have a big dick, it doesn't have to be "bigger than every man's" WE all know someone who has a bigger dick that us.

Your gay male characters manage to achieve balance, right? How do they do it?

Why not give in to her demands and see what happens? maybe she knows better than you.

I like badass females. Mercedes Thompson- badass. But she manages to be a badass without being a bitch. Phedre from the Kushiel series? BADASS and never loses an ounce on femininity while doing it. The Anita Blake types turn every man around them into helpless piles of crap based solely on big boobs and big guns, with no depth of personality to carry off a believable reason for these men to fall in helpless, walk-on-me submissive love with them.

Rachel is sort of balanced right now- she bends as little as possible to get what she wants, but she thinks about problems and tries to work around them. Problem is, to resolve this issue, she's going to have to bend and sacrifice herself in ways she doesn't want to.

I tried giving her the reins. Her solution was to pout and whine about how she doesn't want to do anything. She doesn't have the right solution, so she'd rather just push it into the closet. So not willing to waste another 10,000 words on her waiting to come to the same solution the rest of the cast and I already did.

ETA: My gay male characters tend to be pretty balanced people. Lots of external conflict, very little inner conflict. I guess I write gay male characters like the ones I know? Very comfortable people in themselves, without needing to be flashy or outrageous to assert their personalities.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I like badass females. Mercedes Thompson- badass. But she manages to be a badass without being a bitch. Phedre from the Kushiel series? BADASS and never loses an ounce on femininity while doing it. The Anita Blake types turn every man around them into helpless piles of crap based solely on big boobs and big guns, with no depth of personality to carry off a believable reason for these men to fall in helpless, walk-on-me submissive love with them.

Rachel is sort of balanced right now- she bends as little as possible to get what she wants, but she thinks about problems and tries to work around them. Problem is, to resolve this issue, she's going to have to bend and sacrifice herself in ways she doesn't want to.

I tried giving her the reins. Her solution was to pout and whine about how she doesn't want to do anything. She doesn't have the right solution, so she'd rather just push it into the closet. So not willing to waste another 10,000 words on her waiting to come to the same solution the rest of the cast and I already did.

Well, that makes her interesting, and makes th plot interesting. We usually try to get these sorts of conflicts in the upward part of the arc of course... but they can happen towards the end.

ETA: My gay male characters tend to be pretty balanced people. Lots of external conflict, very little inner conflict. I guess I write gay male characters like the ones I know? Very comfortable people in themselves, without needing to be flashy or outrageous to assert their personalities.

Do women need to be flashy and outrageous to assert their (badass) personalities?

Or to put it another way... why do women need to be flashy and outrageous to assert their personalities?

Or to put it another way... why don't men need to be flashy etc?

(ETA) I have been told that the term "Mary Sue" cannot be posted on the Anita Blake forums

 

[FallingToFly]

I would completely believe that. I want to take about half the male characters in the AB novels and set them to work hacking a new civilization out of some odforsaken wilderness. And fucking each other senseless. And then finding strong, capable, empathic and intuitive females to fuck senseless. Maybe then the concept of partnership would mean more than "I let her have her own way in everything."

 

[Stella_Omega]

I would completely believe that. I want to take about half the male characters in the AB novels and set them to work hacking a new civilization out of some odforsaken wilderness. And fucking each other senseless. And then finding strong, capable, empathic and intuitive females to fuck senseless. Maybe then the concept of partnership would mean more than "I let her have her own way in everything."

You don't think it's a refreshing change-- or at least, a change-- from the nine thousand heaving-breasts-meet-Masculine-beast-bodice-rippers that get published per month?

I'm sorry I added the codicil really, because I want to think about the other questions regarding the ways in which women have to behave in order to be considered correctly female.

 

[FallingToFly]

I woman can be a woman- and a strong, capable, independent woman- without having to be a bitch. It's possible to be a partner without having to be the dominant. I feel like far too much detail goes into the look of a thing, and not enough into the heart of it.

Stupid example, maybe, because it's almost comparing apples to oranges, but I think my ideal heroine is Phedre (Jacqueline Carey). She's already dealing with horribly stacked odds, but she's educated, calm, considerate and determined. As the Kushiel series progresses we watch her temper and impatience of youth be honed and tempered into a steel resolve that makes her the most dangerous enemey you could ever want. It also makes her compassionate. She learns, over and over again, that there are ways to yield without being weak. She also learns when to hold her ground and say "enough." She'll fight to the end for what she believes, sacrifice everything she is to do what is right.

In comparison, Anita (Laurell K Hamilton) doesn't bend. She doesn't accept anything. Every "bad" thing in her character has been forced on her by others- usually men. She is, at the core, the same judgmental, narrow-minded, prudish little Catholic girl that she is in book 1. She's just been put upon- Jean-Claude forced her to become a succubus, so she fucks everyone within her immediate radius. Marmee Noir forced her to become a full-fledged necromancer, so now she's impossibly powerful. Richard and Jean-Claude forced her into a triumvirate to save her life, so now she has all these supernatural powers over all these different Weres. It's not her fault, and she bitches and screams that the whole way through the series, shunting all of the guilt off onto the males (because there are very few females around) who surround her. Her solution to everything is to kill it or fuck it- and that's all the books have become. Sadly, the Merry Gentry series is following suit.

I guess what it comes down to is- I check the LKH books out of the library to see if Anita finally gets her ass handed to her. I BUY the Jacqueline Carey books, in hardback, as soon as they come out, and reread them all periodically. I'd feel the same if it was a male character- an asshole is an asshole regardless of genitalia. An engaging, growing, evolving character is something I want to keep exploring with.

The Mercedes Thompson and Riley Jensen series both do a better job of kick ass physically powerful females in modern settings than AB has in a long time. One's a mechanic, the other is a special agent dealing with the paranormal aspects of the world. Both are characters who manage to remain female and powerful without having to resort to being nasty, bitchy bullies.

 

[sr71plt]

You know you could actually be writing rather than willing yourself into a corner. Just a thought.

 

[Stella_Omega]

In comparison, Anita (Laurell K Hamilton) doesn't bend. She doesn't accept anything. Every "bad" thing in her character has been forced on her by others- usually men. She is, at the core, the same judgmental, narrow-minded, prudish little Catholic girl that she is in book 1. She's just been put upon- Jean-Claude forced her to become a succubus, so she fucks everyone within her immediate radius. Marmee Noir forced her to become a full-fledged necromancer, so now she's impossibly powerful. Richard and Jean-Claude forced her into a triumvirate to save her life, so now she has all these supernatural powers over all these different Weres. It's not her fault, and she bitches and screams that the whole way through the series, shunting all of the guilt off onto the males (because there are very few females around) who surround her. Her solution to everything is to kill it or fuck it- and that's all the books have become.

Thankyou!

I don't think I've seen anyone mention this. Anita Blake is the victim and it's all their fault that she's bitten their nuts off and swallowed them whole...

Yuck.

I can easily see a female character who begins to discover her empowerment because a man encourages her. I have written that several times. But then I want her to take the reins into her own hands somewhat.

 

[FallingToFly]

1500 words into this chapter between posts and household stuff. I type fast, and once I had it straightened out in my head why I was having so much trouble with telling the character to stfu and get in line, it was all there. So far I've gotten her back to the church, showered, into her room and gettinga wake-up call from my favorite biodrug-running elvish bastage.

 

[FallingToFly]

Stella:

It's a common complaint of long-term fans of LKH. Her females don't grow as people, they just react to the Series of Calamities that befall them... and somehow end up smelling like roses when they climb out of the sewer, with more testicles on their belt.

 

[cloudy]

What is even worse is having characters you like and having to kill them off. Otherwise the story ain't going anywhere.

Been there, Done that.

Powers

In my first NaNo, I had to kill off the protag's grandmother or the plot wouldn't move forward.

For some weird reason, I cried when I wrote her death (we won't go into what that says about my issues )

 

[James G 5]

I just said fuck it and started writing. She'll get on board or get assraped by all involved- my muse just got a new strap-on for Christmas.

I'd like to throw up a quick vote for a group assraping, but then you know me well enough to expect that.

 

[James G 5]

The Anita Blake types turn every man around them into helpless piles of crap based solely on big boobs and big guns, with no depth of personality to carry off a believable reason for these men to fall in helpless, walk-on-me submissive love with them.

Edward frowns in your general direction.

 

[FallingToFly]

I'd like to throw up a quick vote for a group assraping, but then you know me well enough to expect that.

Dude, write it yourself. I am so not tailoring my smut to fit your fantasies...

This is my imagination! *keeps*

(For those wonde3ring, James and I know each other very well offline. I'm not being snarky.)

 

[FallingToFly]

And even Edward got smooshy, look at all the BS with Donna making him change and get all Big Daddy. It's like LKH is afraid to deal with manly men who refuse to bow to the women.

 

[James G 5]

Dude, write it yourself. I am so not tailoring my smut to fit your fantasies...

This is my imagination! *keeps*

(For those wonde3ring, James and I know each other very well offline. I'm not being snarky.)

Is true. I was teasing her. She actually wrote her first (and so far only) het anal at my urging. Wrote it quite nicely, I might add.

 

[James G 5]

And even Edward got smooshy, look at all the BS with Donna making him change and get all Big Daddy. It's like LKH is afraid to deal with manly men who refuse to bow to the women.

Actually I felt Edward developed more as a character, and it was as much the kids as Donna... Remember his line to Anita? "I know what she is"?
He still stayed strong and while he's no longer a one-dimensional killing machine he hasn't lost his balls nor, more importantly to your comments and his frown at you, has he fallen for Anita or changed because of her.

The frown was a reaction to the "all strong male characters are emasculated by Anita" line.

 

[FallingToFly]

Edward never hangs around long enough. Thankfully, I'd have to kick his ass thoroughly if he did. But he still got squishy, and in his line of work, that should have gotten him killed by now.

Re: the anal thing. Yeah... I did write it. And it's okay, if you're into the vicious thing. Definitely one of my better pieces, and it's eventually going to be cannibalized into something else I'm writing.

I still say there are some characters you learn to hate as you write through them. I'm there with Rachel (but ignoring her bitching) and very much there with Heather from WPB. I'm still in love with my guys. And I have a tickle of an idea that I dashed into a paragraph and stashed in the darlings folder.

And I still say Anita needs to grow up or get gone.

 

[James G 5]

Edward never hangs around long enough. Thankfully, I'd have to kick his ass thoroughly if he did. But he still got squishy, and in his line of work, that should have gotten him killed by now.

I think that's probably why he's sticking more to local varmint hunts & less to going after major assassination targets these days. He wants to be around to raise the kids.

Re: the anal thing. Yeah... I did write it. And it's okay, if you're into the vicious thing. Definitely one of my better pieces, and it's eventually going to be cannibalized into something else I'm writing.

Vicious can be fun!
And yes, it's an excellent piece, as much for Shilo's reaction as the actual action. I look forward to seeing it outside that universe.

I still say there are some characters you learn to hate as you write through them. I'm there with Rachel (but ignoring her bitching) and very much there with Heather from WPB. I'm still in love with my guys. And I have a tickle of an idea that I dashed into a paragraph and stashed in the darlings folder.

And I still say Anita needs to grow up or get gone.

Agreed on both points.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Edward never hangs around long enough. Thankfully, I'd have to kick his ass thoroughly if he did. But he still got squishy, and in his line of work, that should have gotten him killed by now.

Re: the anal thing. Yeah... I did write it. And it's okay, if you're into the vicious thing. Definitely one of my better pieces, and it's eventually going to be cannibalized into something else I'm writing.

I still say there are some characters you learn to hate as you write through them. I'm there with Rachel (but ignoring her bitching) and very much there with Heather from WPB. I'm still in love with my guys. And I have a tickle of an idea that I dashed into a paragraph and stashed in the darlings folder.

And I still say Anita needs to grow up or get gone.

She's not going to, as long as people buy the stuff. And Hamilton can ban the words "Mary Sue" from her fans' lips.

 

[FallingToFly]

She's not going to, as long as people buy the stuff. And Hamilton can ban the words "Mary Sue" from her fans' lips.

I follow her on Twitter, actually. Sometimes I want to smack her, personally, for bitching about how much trouble she's having with a book. She's been writing the same storyline, over and over, for the past 7 or 8 books. Anita/Merry is in trouble because she's so powerful everyone just HAS to attack her, there's sex, Anita/Merry freaks out, gets mad, throws blame bombs around at the menfolk, there's sex, OMG! big scary bad thing that was supposed to be a myth/extinct/impossible! But never anything too terribly tragic, so there's sex, a minor character dies, Anita/Merry kills something or has a manfolk kill something while saving them, there's sex, cliffhanger ending...


Seriously, I could probably write either an Anita Blake or Merry Gentry book and NO ONE WOULD KNOW it wasn't LKH as long as I stuck to the pattern. The temptation would be to write something non-canon and fun, and that would throw the game.

I suppose I still have to count her as an influence- she's definitely taught me that sex can cover a multitude of plot sins. And I still enjoy her books for the smutty, brainless entertainment value. But I can honestly see where I'm developing as a writer to move more into the heart and mind of a story, rather than the balls, to further the reason for the plot to continue. I'm actually writing much less smut and more interaction as opposed to "awkward moment here... cover it with sex?" Don't get me wrong- the woman is a genius in terms of sales, marketing, and riding a gravy train all the way down the line. I admire the hell out her for that.

It's a shame she never really finished the Nightseer series. It had potential, but then never had a sequel or any real resolution.