Ethical problems with Xmas: I am a "santa-basher".

[Slut_boy]

Xmas is fun. But the belief behind the faith is perplexing for me. Blind faith has always concerned me. Religious instructions and obedience to them hinder ethical development (I think). Consider this question that plagues me:

If I am instructed, by some religious authority (eg a priest, commandment, god) to 'not murder' or 'not commit adultery' and do not do so primarily because of these instructions, am I ethical? Surely, not. Now, if I do not commit murder or cheat on my wife because I feel it is incorrect, that, to me, is ethics. Where freedom is met with responsibility, responsibility of my choosing - that is where true morals are manifest. If my freedom is restricted or curtailed by instruction, and threatened with promises of hell, I am no more ethical than a robot. That's not to say that religious people are unethical, just that blind faith is a restriction of true responsibility. It is also not to say that religious people can not think about these commandments, or that pragmatically, people not murdering each other is probably a good thing. All I'm saying is that true ethics comes from freedom of choice - the type that is unhindered by religious bias?

What do you think?

 

[Whispersecret]

Slut_boy, I hope you forgave me for the professor misunderstanding. I can't remember if I ever checked that thread for a reply.

You have some valid points. I wasn't raised in a religious family, and so I don't have blind faith. Because there are certain tenets that span the world's religions (murder is generally bad, do unto others, etc.), it's difficult to distinguish ethics from religion. But I do agree that the distilled essence of ethics and acting in an ethical manner can only come from someone who has looked at things in more than a strictly religious way. As I see it, religious codes of behavior are (or should be) derived from ancient wisdom about human nature and what benefits society as a whole (and not necessarily the individual). The value of religion is that it lays out this wisdom. There's no need to figure it out yourself. In that way, I don't see as how a religious bias is necessarily a bad thing.

As an example, I'm not Jewish, but I have been on and off reading a book called The Book of Jewish Values by Telushkin. The author lists values and codes of behavior that the Jews believe in, and he also explains in easily understandable terms WHY these codes are beneficial and "good."

Now, as I said, I didn't go to church. I wasn't "brainwashed" as a child, and so I don't see religion as a conspiracy to threaten people into good behavior or to force to behave a certain way, removing their freedom of choice. That's not to say it hasn't been used in that way. You have only to bring up the topic of religion to hear them shout about the Crusades or the rape of indigenous primitive cultures.

I just feel that there is an inherent value in religion that sometimes is misused and misunderstood, but that is there at the core, even so.

 

[Slut_boy]

Whisper, thanks for the reply. I like reading the stuff that you write - it always makes such good sense. Oh, and by the way: of course I responded to that other thread (I was very embarassed by the way that I did "jump to conclusions". As a matter of fact I wrote you quite an extravagent reply - for which I make no apologies *wink*.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Yes he did Whisper, and I'm quite jealous. Pea green even.

I grew up with a religious Christian mother and an fervant athiest father. Both of them were actively seeking converts for their religion. Yes, athiesm is a religion, a religion where secularism is the dogma and god is the denial of higher beings.

Anyway, Christmas is the most ridiculous thing. We are celebrating the birth of Christ on a day that was chosen for one reason, to convert pagans. The date was chosen to usurp the pagan holidays of Yule, the winter solstice, Roman Mithrias (Saturnalia), and celtic Alban Arthuran also called Mabon.

Martin Luther and the Puritans originally refused to celebrate Christmas, since it was a pagan holiday and no one can really pinpoint when Christ was born. At one point Boston made it illegal to celebrate Christmas since it wasn't a Christian holiday.

It always makes me laugh when someone tells me or places a sign that Jesus is the reason for the season, because actually, he had nothing to do with it. The traditions and rituals good Christian folk adhere to have nothing to do with Christ and everything to do with pagan rituals that have been practice for longer than Christ has been around.

Take, for instance the Yule log. Yule means "feast" or "wheel" depending on who you talk to. The Yule log was lit to celebrate warmth and to protect the house from evil spirits. Holly *deck the halls falalalala* was put up to ward off evil spirits. The tree comes from the belief that forests would only turn green in spring if people paid homage to evergreens during the winter, evergreens had a mystical power that let them stay green year round. There is more, but I won't get into it. Since pagans didn't keep a good written record of exactly what they did or why, and Christians did their best to usurp or stamp out their traditions, it's all pretty much speculation as to exactly what the rituals were meant to accomplish.

 

[fgarvb1]

most people park their brains at the door before going into
church anyway..not going to say all i want to...don't want
cause a shortage of torch gas.!! your on the right track.

sure would like to someone "muffinize" easter and a few
other holidays.

 

[Gaucho]

Throwin' the baby Jesus out with the bathwater...

None of us are born with ethical codes of conduct hardwired into our brains. So the question becomes: How and from where do we acquire them? Somewhere along the line, we learn (or are taught) the concepts of right and wrong that apply to the society in which we live. This process starts when we are children and, for many of us, it is incorporated as a part of our religious education.

Regardless of the source, we develop this code (or set of moral principles, if you wish) and try to live our lives by it. To dismiss someone, or to feel somehow that they are less ethical than you, simply because their code is based upon religious teachings is missing the point. All codes of conduct are the products of choice.

For example, you assert that not committing murder or adultery is somehow more ethical because you "feel" that behavior is incorrect than if you are simply following the admonition of the Bible or your priest.

Why?

The feeling you have that such behavior is wrong had to come from somewhere: Your family, friends, society, or possibly from your own personal experience. At some point in your life you were introduced to these two concepts and you made a decision about them as they apply to your life and behavior. Why is that decision any more valid (or ethical) than the one made by the person who learned the 10 Commandments in Sunday School and chooses to live by them?

In my mind, it's not.

In this country, at least, we all have the freedom and the responsibility to decide the ethical code we will live by. If we feel the message is the right one, the source of the messenger shouldn't matter.

In the final analysis, even blind obedience (or faith) is a choice.

 

[CreamyLady]

Well, Santa is a lovely myth, drawn from several sources. The giving spirit is straight out of the hagiography of St. Nicholas of Myra.

However, if one looks at the deepest symbol -- red on white -- and into the collective mythos, it gets very dark. There is no doubt it gets damned cold and dark in winter, and equally no doubt that something must be done to make the sun return.

Hey -- how about a sacrifice? Go hunt something on the shortest day of the year, and kill it at dawn. Blood on the snow!

But you were talking about ethics, weren't you?

I was raised as a Roman Catholic, educated by people who were relentlessly logical. The brainwashing began early, but these same brainwashers also saw to it that I had the equipment to question what I was taught. Blind faith is sustaining in a crisis, it is true, but doesn't stretch to the empty times.

The hope is that we use our gifts of questioning and analysis to reason our way from blind faith through skepticism to belief. The actuality is that a lot of people get "lost" along the way, or find new paths, or just give the whole thing up as a bad job and deal with it on their deathbeds.

In the end, it comes down to what can stiffen our spine in the cold darkness; that light (internal or external) that keeps us going and not committing suicide from the pointlessness of it all. A personal ethos is as good as a belief in a Higher Power for the purpose, and again -- it is an individual choice.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

If I am instructed, by some religious authority (eg a priest, commandment, god) to 'not murder' or 'not commit adultery' and do not do so primarily because of these instructions, am I ethical? Surely, not... true ethics comes from freedom of choice - the type that is unhindered by religious bias?

Whispersecret beat me to this thread and , summarized very well my answer to this question. Religious faith is not necessarily "blind". The Bible is filled cover-to-cover with figures deeply questioning their own faith: Job, David, Paul, etc., ... all of whom arrived at their faiths by much soul-searching, suffering, and prayer.

Likewise, the history of the church is built upon a foundation of both faith and reason. The works of St. Thomas Aquinas in his defense of the church are among the most highly reasoned in the philosophical canon. As WS explained so well, religious teachings (the most fundamental and important ones, at least) are not arbitrary codes of behavior, but the distilled wisdom of thousands of years of people trying to figure out their relationship to their world and to others and to that which created them.

Having said that, I agree with you that the unquestioned belief in any ethical system, regardless of its correctness, does not amount to "being ethical". Your analogy to a moral robot is a good one. Many religious believers are seemingly "programmed" with their beliefs and are unable to explain their reasons. Without reason, moral rules are inflexible and apt to break down under changing circumstances.

However, throughout history, even this kind of unreasoned belief has served a purpose. As WS explained, religious teachings have instillied common-sensical set of "do's and don'ts" to the purpose of maintaining the social order. Of course it's also been the cause of great suffering, persecution, and war. This usually happens when 2 sets of inflexible religious believers come head-to-head.

But does the evil created by unthinking believers invalidate the their religious beliefs? I don't think so. The evil lies in inflexible adherence to the letter of the God's law at the expense of its deeper meanings.

To answer your final question, "true ethics is comes from freedom of choice -the type that is unhindered by religious bias?", remember that the principle of free will is central to Christianity. Individuals have the ability to accept or reject God and the set of beliefs that accompany belief in him. Because of this, religious belief need not be "blind".

It's a choice, not a bias.

 

[Gus]

The Real Truth

What really happened was that in the choosing of the Christian feast was that Jesus was born in September but it was considered that nobody would have any money, having spent it on their summer holidays. So, Yule was stolen and embroidered upon because by that time, some three months later, people would have had time to save.

The Jews were always good businessmen.

 

[Slut_boy]

LOL @ Gus. They certainly are.

 

[Never]

My question is: What does this have to do with Christmas, or Santa?

fgarvb1: "most people park their brains at the door before going into church anyway."
I find many people park their brains at the door before speaking or writing posts.

CreamyLady: "Hey -- how about a sacrifice? Go hunt something on the shortest day of the year, and kill it at dawn. Blood on the snow!"
Sacrifice this -- sacrifice that. That's just your solution to everything. Dang, I was just trying to enjoy my candy cane too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You can't spell holidays with out the 'ho'

 

[Slut_boy]

What does it have to do with Xmas and Santa?

Well Christianity is a religion that is centered around the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. The faith requires that you accept him as saviour (and by implication his life). His life began on Xmas day and Xmas is thus a religious celebration of his birth. It is symbolised fantastically by the fabled figure of Santa.

 

[Never]

Slut-Boy: "It is symbolised fantastically by the fabled figure of Santa."

Never <- Knows a number of Christain's that would see red at that statement.

Ahh, does that make you a 'rabbit-basher' as well?

 

[Slut_boy]

LOL @ Never. Yes, I suppose it does.

 

[JHolley67]

Okay, you lost me there...

Anyway, Christmas is the most ridiculous thing. We are celebrating the birth of Christ on a day that was chosen for one reason, to convert pagans. The date was chosen to usurp the pagan holidays of Yule, the winter solstice, Roman Mithrias (Saturnalia), and celtic Alban Arthuran also called Mabon.

Okay, KillerMuffin, you were doing good right up till that end part. Mabon is celebrated on the tumnal equinox (Fall). Everything else is absolutely correct.


Jason
(Your friendly neighborhood witch.)

 

[JHolley67]

And another thing!

Oh, and Slut Boy, I can relate with your thesis.

"God split himself into myriad parts, that he might have friends." - Lazarus Long

That there is an all powerful, all knowing, ever present God out there that demands the saccharine adoration of his congregation and gets petulant when he doesn't receive it and behaves with all the manners and morals of a spoiled child, makes about as much sense as Phlogiston chemistry.

I do, however believe in a higher power - a universal consciousness, if you will - and strongly suspect that life actually BEGINS when you die.


"I told the priest, don't count on any second coming. God got his ass kicked the last time he came down here slumming. He had the balls to come, the gall to die and then forgive us. Though I don't wonder why, I wonder what He thought it would get us." - Concrete Blonde

Oh, and in case anyone's wondering, I was raised Southern Baptist.


Jason

 

[Slut_boy]

A southern baptist, Holley, you had me fooled *laughs*.

 

[Havocman]

In the Beginning...

Okay...so Christ was really a hippie preaching love your neighbor and turn the other cheek and "God's not about vengence, he's about love, man"...so of course he had to die. I mean c'mon, the establishment couldn't have him traipsing the countryside, rasing a rabble that challenged the authority of the Pharasiees...anyway, blah, blah, blah...

And yes the light that Saul saw on the road to Damascus that made him change his name to Paul was probably just the glint of alter candles off of gold, I mean he was a Taxman right?...And so a belief system was born, that needed an everliving God, not just an executed hippie...and a belief system became a church...and then several churches beacme "The Church"...and blah, blah, blah...

Then "The Church" in an attempt to proseltyze to the great unwashed masses and gain converts from them and thereby solidify there control over the people, usurped a few of the local holidays and traditions as an easy way of letting the great unwashed (and uneducated for that matter) feel as if the "New God" was pretty similar to the old one, I mean, "heck, it can't be too bad, the new holy days are even at the same time of year as the old ones, right Cuthbert?"...and blah, blah, blah...

My only question is this...

We will be limiting the Herr Claus bashing to those of the Santa variety, right?

*breaking into song*
Here comes Havoc Claus, Here comes Havoc Claus, right down Literotica way...

Havoc Claus
Ho, Ho, Ho

 

[Guest]

Santa is a fantasy; no one doubts that. And so is Christmas. But if those fantasies make you feel good, then what is wrong with them? After all, isn't that why most of us come to this site, to explore our fantasies (as well as have the serious discussion now and then )?

 

[Slut_boy]

Well, Phoenix, Never was probably right when she said that my post doesn't have too much to do with Santa and Xmas. I suppose it has more to do with the ethics of obeying a religious instruction. Perhaps it could be extended (at a fucking push *LOL*) to the ethics of honouring a religious festival.

But I am sure that you are right. It makes a lot of people very happy - we need think only of the millions of excited children, etc.

 

[Whispersecret]

Found your reply on that thread, and made a reply myself, professor. <winks>

 

[Slut_boy]

Now which professor would that be? *laughs* Hey Whisper, you almost made me cum again *throb*

 

[Guest]

I must have missed something, but I wanted to ask Gus, what do the Jews have to do with Christmas & Santa Claus??

 

[Whispersecret]

I really made you cum last time? I wasn't even doing anything except starring in your fantasy! LOL. Such is the power of WS! She can make men cum without knowing it!

<tugs at her pigtail, winking at Slut_boy> Come here, professor. I wanted to talk to you about sextra credit.