Erotica or pornography

[GuiltyPleasure]

Two poems caught my eye today this one and this one. Side by side they struck me as perfect examples of the two genre.

I see so many "fuck me, whip me, etc me" poems under the cloak of "erotic", perhaps it's time for a fifth category -

Poems
Erotic poems
Pornoprahic poems
Illustrated poems
Poetry with audio

Any thoughts?

 

[ishtat]

Not far enough

You could go further I suppose and suggest that the first is both erotic and poetry and the second is neither.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

See what you mean and I must admit to having some I haven't dare put my name to on here! Is more than one account allowed !!

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

You could go further I suppose and suggest that the first is both erotic and poetry and the second is neither.

I'm not here to judge.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

See what you mean and I must admit to having some I haven't dare put my name to on here! Is more than one account allowed !!

Others do that, why not you? Although, judging from your work so far, you shouldn't be hesitant to put your name to anything you write.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Boy, that gets really tricky though. We'd end up getting into the difference between the two genres, and that's so individual, and so basically semantic.

here, by the way, is one of my favorite definitions:
"Pornography is whatever makes a judge's dick hard"

I have no desire to engage in actual "argument" over this, since I think a great deal of this sort of judgment is esthetic, but allow me to suggest this:

There is only one basic category here: A piece of writing whose primary goal is to sexually arouse the reader. Within that category, whatever one wants to call it (maybe not erotica, maybe just "sexual writing") there are many subcategories. Consider it a scale, or perhaps multiple scales:

The delicacy and romance scale: are they described as "fucking like crazed weasels", or is he "slowly moving above her, filling her with his love"?

The graphic scale: do we get "his thick, 7 inch cock slammed into my juicy pussy to the hilt and his balls slapped hard against me" or do we get "he entered me, filling me to my core"?

The literary skill scale: do we get "hump me baby/ like you never did before/ slam me on the table/ and fuck me on the floor" or do we get ...well, I'll let you pick your own favorite for that. Okay, here's one from Tzara:

"I play, methodic as a metronome,
learn how to bow your lovely strings
to get your instrument to sing,

and only seek your little death."

And I do NOT have a huge crush on him so just shut up.

The morality scale: some people would consider whether there is emotional involvement, ethical behavior, or any of the "nobler" emotions part of the judgment mechanism for the question of erotica vs. pornography. That is, I would predict that the same BDSM scene, for example, would be scored at least slightly differently by some people if one were portraying a) a long-term, married couple vs. b) a one-night stand pickup in a leather bar.

Tricky indeed. More to the point, even if you were to create that artificial division between categories, it would still be up to the authors to define which form they were writing.

I for one would simply go for the porno category each time from then on, since I may be doing many things with my poems, but one of their primary goals, if they are sexual in topic, is to arouse - of that alone I am sure. Whether I do it with delicacy, whether it is graphic, whether my skill as a writer is up to snuff, whether there is some sort of cultural morality involved, all of these must by definition be secondary, in my opinion. Without the topic, there is no poem.

It is certainly an interesting, and a very old, question. Perhaps the main point is this: I'm terribly sorry you had to experience a shitty, stupid poem today. I'm always sorry, and generally have to vent, when that happens. But in these case, I don't think the sexuality is at fault or even the topic; the problem is the quality of writing, and for that you'd have to create the REAL categories:

Good Poetry
Crappy Poetry

And that's a can o worms I'm not willing to open without a GREAT deal more coffee in my system, and possibly a couple of Guinnesses.

my two cents, in affection, and for what, if anything, it's worth.
bijou

 

[wildsweetone]

Two poems caught my eye today this one and this one. Side by side they struck me as perfect examples of the two genre.

I see so many "fuck me, whip me, etc me" poems under the cloak of "erotic", perhaps it's time for a fifth category -

Poems
Erotic poems
Pornoprahic poems
Illustrated poems
Poetry with audio

Any thoughts?

maybe we would be better off correctly naming the existing 'erotic poems' category, to 'sexual poems'.

i clearly see the difference in the poems you've quoted. i know which i would prefer to read/be at one with, right now. but ask me in about an hour and i might turn around and say i prefer the other.

guess my womanhood is showing.

 

[Angeline]

Two poems caught my eye today this one and this one. Side by side they struck me as perfect examples of the two genre.

I see so many "fuck me, whip me, etc me" poems under the cloak of "erotic", perhaps it's time for a fifth category -

Poems
Erotic poems
Pornoprahic poems
Illustrated poems
Poetry with audio

Any thoughts?

Actually they're both well written, although MungoPark's is far better in my opinion, not only cause it's more subtle, it's just constructed better, more interesting language and imagery.

I've often thought we need a "mediocre shit" category because that's where a lot of poems fall. Not only the poorly written "beat me, fuck me Master" poems, but also the "I never knew love like this as I watch the waves crash on the shore" poems. I'd put more than a few of my own in that category.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Boy, that gets really tricky though. We'd end up getting into the difference between the two genres, and that's so individual, and so basically semantic.

here, by the way, is one of my favorite definitions:
"Pornography is whatever makes a judge's dick hard"

I have no desire to engage in actual "argument" over this, since I think a great deal of this sort of judgment is esthetic, but allow me to suggest this:

There is only one basic category here: A piece of writing whose primary goal is to sexually arouse the reader. Within that category, whatever one wants to call it (maybe not erotica, maybe just "sexual writing") there are many subcategories. Consider it a scale, or perhaps multiple scales:

The delicacy and romance scale: are they described as "fucking like crazed weasels", or is he "slowly moving above her, filling her with his love"?

The graphic scale: do we get "his thick, 7 inch cock slammed into my juicy pussy to the hilt and his balls slapped hard against me" or do we get "he entered me, filling me to my core"?

The literary skill scale: do we get "hump me baby/ like you never did before/ slam me on the table/ and fuck me on the floor" or do we get ...well, I'll let you pick your own favorite for that.

The morality scale: some people would consider whether there is emotional involvement, ethical behavior, or any of the "nobler" emotions part of the judgment mechanism for the question of erotica vs. pornography. That is, I would predict that the same BDSM scene, for example, would be scored at least slightly differently by some people if one were portraying a) a long-term, married couple vs. b) a one-night stand pickup in a leather bar.

Tricky indeed. More to the point, even if you were to create that artificial division between categories, it would still be up to the authors to define which form they were writing.

I for one would simply go for the porno category each time from then on, since I may be doing many things with my poems, but one of their primary goals, if they are sexual in topic, is to arouse - of that alone I am sure. Whether I do it with delicacy, whether it is graphic, whether my skill as a writer is up to snuff, whether there is some sort of cultural morality involved, all of these must by definition be secondary, in my opinion. Without the topic, there is no poem.

It is certainly an interesting, and a very old, question. Perhaps the main point is this: I'm terribly sorry you had to experience a shitty, stupid poem today. I'm always sorry, and generally have to vent, when that happens. But in these case, I don't think the sexuality is at fault or even the topic; the problem is the quality of writing, and for that you'd have to create the REAL categories:

Good Poetry
Crappy Poetry

And that's a can o worms I'm not willing to open without a GREAT deal more coffee in my system, and possibly a couple of Guinnesses.

my two cents, in affection, and for what, if anything, it's worth.
bijou

I appreciate all of this and you're right it is an age old question also a matter of taste. Perhaps I'm a poetic snob but when reading through the new "erotic" arrivals I tend to swallow two or three lines of a poem, decide if it's worth consuming or not and, if not, move on.

I'll bet there are more than a few judges with a bulge after reading erotica.

Lastly - no where did I describe either poem as shitty or stupid. Take that back or I'll send you a pornographic poem.

Affectionately

tess

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

maybe we would be better off correctly naming the existing 'erotic poems' category, to 'sexual poems'.

i clearly see the difference in the poems you've quoted. i know which i would prefer to read/be at one with, right now. but ask me in about an hour and i might turn around and say i prefer the other.

guess my womanhood is showing.

The wisdom of womanhood, yes.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Actually they're both well written, although MungoPark's is far better in my opinion, not only cause it's more subtle, it's just constructed better, more interesting language and imagery.

I've often thought we need a "mediocre shit" category because that's where a lot of poems fall. Not only the poorly written "beat me, fuck me Master" poems, but also the "I never knew love like this as I watch the waves crash on the shore" poems. I'd put more than a few of my own in that category.

I have nothing to add except you never wrote a mediocre poem in your life! Also you have a PM.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

See and here's problem number one. I purposefully did not read the two poems you linked until after I finished writing that post. Now I have gone and read them.

My completely authentic review:
of course MungoPark's piece is more "well-written", whatever that means. There are some skillful images there. It reminds me of those traditional morning poems by Shakespeare and Donne, the "begone, unruly sun"; the "she is all worlds, and all Princes I" sort of thing. Did it turn me on, make me think about sex? Sorta. It made me think about other people having sex. Two very nice people somewhere. Not me; I'm nowhere in that scene. But a nice poem, a fine poem. Not crap.

The other one, well, okay, so the voice is raw and rough. The rhyme seems to be more than accidental; it's a conscious pattern. It is, if nothing else, heartfelt and authentic, and at least not rhymed couplets in iambic quatrameter. Betcha a dollar it's a first draft. Betcha she doesn't have a degree in Dead Wealthy White Men of the 14th Century, like I do. Betcha she prioritizes sex and self-expression over poetic and literary skill.

Did it turn me on? Yup. Did I see myself in it, those moments of incoherent angry desperation with these men who won't put out like I want them to? Yup. Is it the best, or even the sexiest, poem I ever read? Nope.

So.... I wouldn't dare declare a category for either one of them.

there's my problem. I see a lot of woofing around here about "stroke vs. pornography vs. erotica" and I must admit I get terribly confused at these differentiations. And more than a bit annoyed at the occasional elitism I encounter. (Not HERE of course; no one in the poetry threads is ever guilty of that...)

I just don't know. Someone way smarter than I am will have to judge this stuff.

affectionately,
bijou

 

[Tzara]

I would rather the two categories erotic poems and non-erotic poems be collapsed into a single one. I don't myself find it a useful distinction.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

I would rather the two categories erotic poems and non-erotic poems be collapsed into a single one. I don't myself find it a useful distinction.

It really isn't and my idea is pretty silly because, who would get to decide which category a poem should be in? The same person that deals out the Es?

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I appreciate all of this and you're right it is an age old question also a matter of taste. Perhaps I'm a poetic snob but when reading through the new "erotic" arrivals I tend to swallow two or three lines of a poem, decide if it's worth consuming or not and, if not, move on.

I'll bet there are more than a few judges with a bulge after reading erotica.

Lastly - no where did I describe either poem as shitty or stupid. Take that back or I'll send you a pornographic poem.

Affectionately

tess

No, you're right, you did not describe them that way at all. I just extrapolated, having read some honestly shitty and stupid work in my life. It was hyperbolic, admittedly. But send me a pornographic poem anyway. I like them.

bijou

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I would rather the two categories erotic poems and non-erotic poems be collapsed into a single one. I don't myself find it a useful distinction.

Maybe it's for people who have a phobia of the word "pussy" and need to avoid it at all costs. Click here if you DON'T want to be turned on!

bijou

 

[Angeline]

I have nothing to add except you never wrote a mediocre poem in your life! Also you have a PM.

You should see some of the ones I don't submit.

And you have an answer.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Others do that, why not you? Although, judging from your work so far, you shouldn't be hesitant to put your name to anything you write.

They are a trifle earthy and explicit lol and I would be afraid no body would take me seriously again!

 

[unpredictablebijou]

They are a trifle earthy and explicit lol and I would be afraid no body would take me seriously again!

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

I promise I would continue to "take you seriously." Promise.

bijou

 

[Angeline]

I would rather the two categories erotic poems and non-erotic poems be collapsed into a single one. I don't myself find it a useful distinction.

The distinction seems ridiculous considering that the poet chooses the category and some (well probably many) poems seem miscategorized. And some could fit in either category, depending on how one chooses to interpret them.

I wrote a story for the Halloween contest here once about witches in Greenwich Village. It was really a couples sort of story (and sort of ripped off from Bell, Book and Candle, but that's not a bad thing, I don't think lol); it focuses on a young witch and her aunt, who casts a love spell on this guy and the erotica that ensues with him and the niece. They chose to categorize it as "erotic horror." There wasn't a "horror" moment in it anywhere. Who knows why they do what they do here. As PoeTess says, it's like the decision that results in the award of an E. Who knows?

 

[UnderYourSpell]

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

I promise I would continue to "take you seriously." Promise.

bijou

well if I dig them out they are my old style of rhyming and if I get slated have you got a wide shoulder for sobbing on lol ?

 

[Angeline]

well if I dig them out they are my old style of rhyming and if I get slated have you got a wide shoulder for sobbing on lol ?

Most people here--as you may have noticed by now--will be nice and like you whether they like every single poem you write or not. The worst that can happen is you'll get some kinky pm's or emails (Lauren got one once from a guy who claimed he could make her levitate!), and some consider that a plus.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I have already got some messages but I don't know how to open them!! All right I am blonde and I suppose I should have a fiddle and find out how to open the flipping things after all I opened yours before when I got stuck but I think these are some kind of spam so I havent bothered there is more to life than spam ... but on a more serious note I am so thin skinned you wouldnt believe it .. someone made a disparaging remark on one of those add a word things and I am afraid he/she got told to go play their silly games and I huffed off. That doesnt matter but the poetry bit does .. very much so and I wait with bated breath for the reviews. Oh well I will dig out some of the ones I know I have got around still with being written on paper a lot have been lost ... bet when you read them you think .. Is that all lol

 

[Angeline]

I have already got some messages but I don't know how to open them!! All right I am blonde and I suppose I should have a fiddle and find out how to open the flipping things after all I opened yours before when I got stuck but I think these are some kind of spam so I havent bothered there is more to life than spam ... but on a more serious note I am so thin skinned you wouldnt believe it .. someone made a disparaging remark on one of those add a word things and I am afraid he/she got told to go play their silly games and I huffed off. That doesnt matter but the poetry bit does .. very much so and I wait with bated breath for the reviews. Oh well I will dig out some of the ones I know I have got around still with being written on paper a lot have been lost ... bet when you read them you think .. Is that all lol

The more poems you submit, the less you'll care if some people don't like them. At least that's how it worked for me. My skin got a lot thicker after a while. I still want to learn and appreciate constructive feedback, but I know some people will never think my poetry is right for them. There are poems (famous and here) I don't particularly like either. Oh well.

I've gotten a few private messages I wished I never opened. Some are very interesting, some make me laugh. I always try to respond kindly and let them know I'm not interested (well I'm not, not that way; I have a poet already and he's enough for me lol), but some just make me say ew.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Well one has gone in entitled 'An awful lot of sucking'! ... I had to type it out twice I got booted just as I was about to submit it ... so we shall see what they make of that lol I know what you mean about emails making you go ew .. one bloke asked me if I kept my husbsnd happy and did I ever have fun outside my marriage... actually I felt quite sorry for him afterwards he didn't know what hit him.