Electric cars.

[AlexBailey]

Like any good debate, we can move on from one topic to another…why is this so hard for y’all to understand?

If EV’s are more efficient, then you don’t have to worry. We’ll all be running out and buying one. To circle back to the original topic though, auto makers just aren’t seeing it your way.

Consumers, especially ones who listen to right wing propaganda, aren’t doing the math to figure out what fuels are more efficient or cost-effective without incentives.

Meanwhile, the United States is divesting from renewable technology and going back to harvesting existing Petro chemicals rather than producing clean “renewable” fuels.


Have you ever really thought about what “renewable” means in context of fuels? That means that you can make more of them, not just harvest what already exists.

A consumer can invest in renewable energy and lock in their prices. Very few consumers can do that with petroleum. Petroleum keeps you dependent on one of the most profitable and damaging industries.

 

[HumpDayHoratio]

Consumers, especially ones who listen to right wing propaganda, aren’t doing the math to figure out what fuels are more efficient or cost-effective without incentives.

Meanwhile, the United States is diverting from renewable technology and going back to harvesting existing Petro chemicals rather than producing clean “renewable” fuels.

Have you ever really thought about what “renewable” means in context of fuels? That means that you can make more of them not just harvest what exists.

A consumer can invest in renewable energy and lock in their prices. Very few consumers can do that with petroleum. Petroleum keeps you dependent on one of the most profitable and damaging industries.

First of all, let’s get some terminology straight.

The Oil industry doesn’t get incentives. They don’t get subsidies. They get tax breaks. Like a lot of industries do. There is a big misconception on the left about this.

The Oil companies like other industries, benefit from the tax structure. You may hate the player, but you you can’t hate the game…or you could I guess. That game is designed to encourage investment and job creation. They pay huge taxes and provide millions of jobs that contribute to the economy. Can the EV companies say the same? Tesla maybe?

Simplistic claims about “subsidies” and not understanding the “math” behind these decisions makes you look juvenile.

Look, if the goal is a fair, competitive energy market, then all the industries, need to be scrutinized and that includes the emerging renewable markets, for the incentives they receive and the benefits they provide. I wont argue with you on that front. Read this again though: The Benefits they provide. There are a lot of things you don’t see that are baked into the cake and why those tax breaks will probably not go away.

Oversimplifying it does us no good.

 

[AlexBailey]

First of all, let’s get some terminology straight.

The Oil industry doesn’t get incentives. They don’t get subsidies. They get tax breaks. Like a lot of industries do. There is a big misconception on the left about this.

The Oil companies like other industries, benefit from the tax structure. You may hate the player, but you you can’t hate the game…or you could I guess. That game is designed to encourage investment and job creation. They pay huge taxes and provide millions of jobs that contribute to the economy. Can the EV companies say the same? Tesla maybe?

Simplistic claims about “subsidies” and not understanding the “math” behind these decisions makes you look juvenile.

Look, if the goal is a fair, competitive energy market, then all the industries, need to be scrutinized and that includes the emerging renewable markets, for the incentives they receive and the benefits they provide. I wont argue with you on that front. Read this again though: The Benefits they provide. There are a lot of things you don’t see that are baked into the cake and why those tax breaks will probably not go away.

Oversimplifying it does us no good.

You just proved that you aren’t being honest in this discussion.

Take a few minutes with this video that I posted before but you obviously ignored, then come back and spew about how the petroleum industry contributes fairly to the US treasury through taxes. It also answers to the US jobs that aren’t created due to the tax incentives and loopholes Trump and Co promote.

https://thefactcoalition.org/report/oil-and-gas-tax-subsidies/

I don’t believe you are having a good faith conversation.

 

[AlexBailey]

Meanwhile…

Other countries will continue to invest in their renewables infrastructure and will outpace the US in modern energy technology manufacturing.

The good old MAGA boys are pushing to keep American manufacturing and integration behind the curve.

 

[HumpDayHoratio]

Meanwhile…

Other countries will continue to invest in their renewables infrastructure and will outpace the US in modern energy technology manufacturing.

The good old MAGA boys are pushing to keep American manufacturing and integration behind the curve.

You throw a lot of terms around. What is “renewable infrastructure?” Wind farms and solar I’m familiar with. Am I missing others?

Cap and trade…which I assume (that’s a big assumption) you’re referring to, is touted in the EU. Hasn’t really worked out in California, now has it? It’s one thing for a Denmark, a country with lets say almost 7 million to run these schemes, as opposed to CA, who’s sitting just under 40 million.

Not really a fair comparison…

How many companies and corporations are leaving California for greener pastures?

 

[AlexBailey]

You throw a lot of terms around. What is “renewable infrastructure?” Wind farms and solar I’m familiar with. Am I missing others?

Cap and trade…which I assume (that’s a big assumption) you’re referring to, is touted in the EU. Hasn’t really worked out in California, now has it? It’s one thing for a Denmark, a country with lets say almost 7 million to run these schemes, as opposed to CA, who’s sitting just under 40 million.

Not really a fair comparison…

How many companies and corporations are leaving California for greener pastures?

Greener pastures?

Yeah, regulations limit profit margins. Are you one of those idiots who thinks we could have got away from the smog of the 1970’s without regulating emissions?

Renewable infrastructure includes electrical grid distribution and storage improvements. It also includes smart grid technology that allows flexibility in demand such as opportunistic heating and cooling or vehicle charging.


Ever been to Hawai’i? There are lots of good models of smart grid infrastructure there. Their electric grids are obviously self-contained to each island. Petroleum is a much more expensive source of electricity than renewables. Storage capacity is key to making efficient use of renewable energy. There are actually grid interaction protocols used across the world based on the design of the Kaua’i grid infrastructure.


I work with renewables and have read PG&E’s (one of the major CA electrical utility companies) entire general plan. There is a lot of long term investment and a call for emerging technologies in it. I’m not anywhere near as clueless about this as you are.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

So you don’t believe petroleum producers get tax incentives, sweetheart deals on public land leases, government investment in infrastructure, government spending on clean up?

(Clue: government spending equals taxpayer money. Tax credits and deductions equal government prioritizing certain industries.)

https://thefactcoalition.org/report/oil-and-gas-tax-subsidies/

Most of the tax provisions oil producers benefit from are things like accelerated depreciation, investment tax credits and other things that are available to all capital asset investment industries. There are certainly some industry-specific provisions that apply to drilling companies that address unique things like exploration and well depletions. You’d be hard pressed to find direct subsidies grants and tax breaks designed to incentivize and grow businesses engaged in drilling, fracking, and refining that come anywhere close to the monetary incentives given to “green energy producers.” And consumers of petroleum products get no tax breaks. Instead, they are taxed by federal and state of governments for every drop they consume.

 

[AlexBailey]

Most of the tax provisions oil producers benefit from are things like accelerated depreciation, investment tax credits and other things that are available to all capital asset investment industries. There are certainly some industry-specific provisions that apply to drilling companies that address unique things like exploration and well depletions. You’d be hard pressed to find direct subsidies grants and tax breaks designed to incentivize and grow businesses engaged in drilling, fracking, and refining that come anywhere close to the monetary incentives given to “green energy producers.” And consumers of petroleum products get no tax breaks. Instead, they are taxed by federal and state of governments for every drop they consume.

Most renewable incentives for consumers came as tax deductions and credits. The limited rebates for solar came from rate payers and were offered by utilities to help keep rates lower because they could provide more energy to the grid during the times when grid managers needed it most - in the afternoon when air conditioning often required buying additional production during peak demand.

It works pretty damn well.

Since you obviously didn’t listen to Senator Whitehouse’s statement you don’t know about the shell games the GOP has enabled for petroleum companies.

They can differ the bulk of their profits to off shore operations and manage their tax liability here at home. Whitehouse mentions how domestic petroleum companies pay more to foreign governments than they do in the USA.

It’s also a big part of the reason the US imports and exports petroleum when in theory we produce more domestically than we actually use. Shell games. They work for corporations but not for consumers. That’s the Republican way, no?

 

[HumpDayHoratio]

Yeah, he lost me at “Big Oil”

If he really wants to be taken seriously then maybe don’t lead off with tired-ass leftwing slogans. I did tune in long enough to hear him say the oil industry has had a “stranglehold on our tax code for over a century…”.

That doesn’t seem to be a “Republican way,” but an American way, eh? If my maths are correct, there have been seven democrats in charge in the last century? Correct me if I’m wrong…

Oh, about Ol’ Whitehouse. Funny you use him as an example to slag “Big Oil”, yet Sheldon personally padded his wife’s employers coffers to the tune of 7 Million from an NGO his wife worked for and he pushed legislation benefiting his wife’s employer (and thereby her/himslef)?

Want to guess what that/those NGO’s were? Yep, Climate Change advocates. Conflict of interest much?

I guess it’s the Radicalized democrat way…

 

[HumpDayHoratio]

The hits keep on coming…and it’s worse than previously predicted. The good news for the New Religion types is all the CEO’s think things will stabilize and EV’s will continue to grow, but as I’ve pointed out…this is a niche market. It will continue to be for at least another generation probably two.