Education thought, thank you DCL

[Bobtoad777]

DCL
Fundamental Christian Creationists who lobby against teaching anthropogy, zoology, biology and archeology because they support Evolution.

Firstly, Yes I am a christian. No I have not been one all my life infact I was raised by a strict militaristic athiest family.

My question is being of nations of freedom of choice and all that stuff Canada and USA. What would be so intrisically wrong in teaching both a secular science and a creationist sceince in schools up until say high school and from there allow the students to choose what direction they want to study for the Grade 10, 11, 12 years and on into college.

Yes I kow this is wishful thinking, but I do believe by only teaching one view is harmful to a nation as a whole.

I think the same sort of thing should be taught in history style settings as well having a sort of teacher exchange program. The American histiry taught my an american, Europeon{sp} by a europeon{sp} etc.

Would you have a problem having your child taught in such a manner? I believe it would quite productive.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Bobtoad777]

I have no problem with all views of creationism being taught and i was not refering to christian creationism, because I i know a good many creation scientist that are not christian nor believe in a christian god.

And I said I wanted a balanced teaching for the child to choice not me to choose for the child so parochial school would be kind of dumb because it would go the opposite extreme and not teach the valuable aspects to the evolutionary side of science.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Bob, if you like I will give you a better supported answer later (busy right now), but here's the essential problem with your proposal, and this is not an opinion, this is a carved in stone fact:

Creation Science is NOT a science. It is not rooted in any scientific process of discovery, it does not lend itself to experiment, it is not revisable in light of new data, it was not formed via hypothesis and theory, it is not viable in concert with the other sciences. I don't care WHAT Creation "Scientist" with a microscope tells you he's "discovered" about the fossil record, he is 100% NOT following the disciplines of the scientific process.

I have no problem with Creationism being discussed in school, in a class on the humanities, ancient literature, or comparative relgions, but is has absolutely no place in a science classroom. None whatsoever. Thtat's the difference.

If you truly need a definition of what constitutes a "Science" I can give it to you, but I have to tell you that it always appalls me that the definition isn't common knowledge.

I can also supply examples of what Creation Science exactly is, and forward more detailed arguments. Right now I gotta' go do some more flirting on the Board. I think Nitelite wants to fuck me.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Guest]

 

[Bobtoad777]

I kinda like DCL's idea, but the fact is it is not in the schools and anyone in the schools that is not an athiest is being put down, ridiculed. I know of very many religious kids not just christian kids but we had a couple of hindu students and a few buddhist students in school who were forceable brow beaten because they were not athiest.

They never sis a thing, at the time i was an athiest and I felt it very unfair to them that they were put down because of that.

 

[RonG]

From my old scientific method days, you have four steps in science
1) Identify a problem
2) Gather available data
3) Formulate a hypothesis/theory
4) Test the theory empirically

Goodie for us but what of creation science? This starts at step 3 (and chooses which items constitute problems) and utilizes step 2 with great prejudice and blows off step 4. This is playing fast and loose with the rules that all other sciences are based on. Evolution, as a broad topic, actually encompasses very solid proveable facts such as Natural Selection, Genetics, and Adaptation/Mutation which are really no longer hypotheses as such, outside of minor quibbling about mechanisms. For example,the experimentation with creating amino acids through zapping simple compounds with electricity are nothing more than trying to following the four steps (problem: How could life begin from mere chemicals?;data, early earth contained a lot of simple compounds, electrical discharges exist; theory - simple amino acids, the building blocks of cellular life, could be made from these chemicals and energy; test - gather up such chemicals and blast them and see what you get). Sonofagun, the experiment works and the facts and experimentation support the hypothesis. This is the same method that proved that cold fusion was not achieved since it could not stand up to these rigors.

So, without writing a huge paper, Creationism is a philosophy on equal footing with Absurdism, Existentialism, Nihilism, etc. but nowhere even close to touching Chemistry, Mathematics, or Biology as legitimate sciences.

Generally, good teaching of science includes integrating background philosophy into the studies. However, it is awfully tough to integrate creation science into any curriculum when its main tenet is that other proven and documented sciences are false or intentionally trying to cloud the minds of true believers. Kind of like including flat earth philosophy into a geography class.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Silverlily]

I would like to go back to your statement on being taught American history by an American, so on.

Personally, I would rather by taught any subject by the most qualified person regardless of heritage. The best history professor I ever knew was a man from Wyoming who taught the History of Ancient Greece. That class was fantastic.

As for what my kids are being taught in school, no way do I leave that solely to the school system. It is my job as their mother to ensure their education is well-rounded and to fill in the gaps.

 

[Bobtoad777]

I have been to 17 schools in 12 years of education and not a one of them was kind toward religion that was the last 1/2 a year of my highschool year, thats why i knew what religions are there.

I have never been to a school where science teachers did not try to destroy a religious student. In fact they seem to go out of thier way to single out the relgious students.

 

[Bobtoad777]

Yes I like that idea kitten eyes as long as the teacher does not protray a typical pro american, procanadain or pro what ever view. its hard to find a truthful teaching of history for every nation always puts thiers own twist to it, hence my idea of multi nationalic teachers then the student can take the views and establish for them selves a view of history.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Silverlily]

OK, if you don't want a pro-whatever approach, why not then choose someone of a different nationality to teach the subject? Think about it, who would be more inclined to be pro-American, an American or someone from another country?

Besides, part of being the most qualified is not just subgect knowledge, but the ability to teach well.

[Edited by Kitten Eyes on 11-30-2000 at 12:01 PM]

 

[Bobtoad777]

community I think its the country cause that is spread across 3 provinces the attitude that religion is to be mocked.

If you have found a school where it is not mocked and attacked then I think that that school is the exception and schould be praised for its tolerance. I believe such schools are a rareity.

yes I agree we are colored by our experinces thus my reasoning for exposing children to different eople of different heritage and experince.

as for why didn't i do anything, I was athiest, i didnt want to be called a christian lover.

but since then my mind and feelings have been vroadened to the end that I feel everyone is equal be they christian, athiest or any other sytem of bleief non belief. Which I believe is a far way from what I was

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Mustang Sally]

*ahem* NO bobtoad, I assure you it's NOT the country. It pisses me off when you make such outrageous generalizations. Religion was never an issue in any school I went to.

In public school we said the Lord's Prayer every morning before the announcements. My school was not an exception, at least not in Ontario. It did stop sometime in the mid 80's when the government realized there are plenty of non-Christian students in the schools and made it illegal, and rightly so.

I agree with those who said creationist science is not actually a science, but a philosophy. If you want to learn about that, there are electives on that sort of thing. It should not be a required part of any curriculum.

 

[Countess DeWinter]

Okay, here's my $.02

Science resides in a FORT, if you will.
Falsifiable
Observable
Repeatable
Testable
(those last two should be reversed, but that doesn't spell anything). Science is more of a process than a thing. Creation science is not a science if they don't use scientific methods. Nothing else is a science if those same methods aren't used.

Anything inside this "structure" is the realm of science. You will be wise to note that the origins of life lie outside this fort, because no matter what you believe, it is NOT observable! It is NOT falsifiable! It is NOT repeatable! It is NOT testable!

No matter what you believe, from what theistic or atheistic perspective, it is a matter of faith (in the generic, not specific sense). It requires the acceptance/belief in something that CANNOT be proved.

[Edited by Countess DeWinter on 11-30-2000 at 12:36 PM]

 

[Bobtoad777]

*ahem* NO bobtoad, I assure you it's NOT the country. It pisses me off when you make such outrageous generalizations. Religion was never an issue in any school I went to.

In public school we said the Lord's Prayer every morning before the announcements. My school was not an exception, at least not in Ontario. It did stop sometime in the mid 80's when the government realized there are plenty of non-Christian students in the schools and made it illegal, and rightly so.

Religion was never an issue then why would that make prayer illegal? Maybe because it was an issue?

I agree with those who said creationist science is not actually a science, but a philosophy. If you want to learn about that, there are electives on that sort of thing. It should not be a required part of any curriculum.

I would be more than happy if it was made an elective, but I have never seen that offered and as you said religion in school is illegal. Why is it illegal? is it because it is feared? i do not know. I grew up in the maritimes. I have seen kids booted out of school for carrieng a Bible with thier books. And these were not the thumper kids, these were quiet kids who kept it to them selves. Why does a Bible warrent explusion? Why did a kid get kicked out for bowing his head and praying to himself without words and asking blessing for his dinner in the cafterias? No this is not isolated. Its just not talked about mainstream, thats why no one hears about it.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Mustang Sally]

I will definitely respond to that, bobtoad, but later. I have to go to work now. Have a good one.

 

[teresafannin]

In the schools that I attended for 12 years & during the years Justin was in school, I never saw discrimination against kids of any kind of religion. As a matter of fact, the public high he attended provides an after school meeting place for many different groups. There is Fellowship of Christian Athletes, a Hebrew study group & a group of kids who follow Islam. All of these groups meet at the school. Even the private school, run by the Catholic church that he attended last, allows kids to use the building for different meetings, including religious groups. I do not want "Creation Science" taught in the schools because that would discriminate against non-Christians. I don't know if it is the fact that I live in part of "The Bible Belt", but atheists are not a big influence in the schools I have been involved with. I spent the first 12 years of my life in the midwest & don't recall a lot of atheistic influences there, either. Kids are graduating from schools not able to read, write & do math. I think religion should be taught in the home, not in school. High school electives in religion are a good idea, but not mandatory religious classes.

[Edited by teresafannin on 11-30-2000 at 12:44 PM]

 

[Bobtoad777]

I look back myself in shame for my non-action when I saw the christians being ripped on. But I still do not believe that these are isolateed happenings, I believe they are happening across Canada and the US and a whole lot more than we realize that it is happening.

 

[Bobtoad777]

I only ask for the option to be available to study alternatively or cooperatively. It is possible without discriminating religious students or non-relgious.