Educating Harry

[myrionomos]

This is a grovelling plea for feedback please.

I am a new writer and the first three chapters of my first effort are now up. The voting response has been fairly good as has the number of reads. Perhaps posting a new writers first story as a multi part Novel/Novella was not the smartest idea but that is how it turned out. So far however, I am getting very little feedback. The stories are here:-

http://www.literotica.com/s/educating-harry-ch-01


http://www.literotica.com/s/educating-harry-ch-02


www.literotica.com/s/educating-harry-ch-03


Any comment would be appreciated and if you feel I need a clip round the ear for any, or any number of issues, please feel free; I won't take umbrage...ever.

Thank you.

 

[CWatson]

Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.

1) TECHNICALS. The first and biggest problem I noticed is that your story is very, very low on commas. Is there a shortage down under or something? There are tons and tons of places, even just within the first two paragraphs, that you need them and don't have them.

The lunch party broke up just after three o'clock. Trixie Llewellyn-Jones, the ministers wife, left first, some parish work to attend to. She was soon followed by Bella Mason, the new Hawksworth High School principal, who also gave a lift to Carol Johnson and her rather odd little partner Lois.

"Come on Susan," said Maria, the remaining guest, to her hostess, "I'll give you a hand to clear up."

Yes, you need all of those.

You'll notice that one is blue. That's because it's a dialogue closer. You correctly use a dialogue-attribution rider ("said Maria") at that point, but when you follow a line of dialogue with an attribution rider, you must have a punctuation mark at the end of said dialogue line, and that punctuation mark must be either a comma, an exclamation mark or a question mark. Anything else is wrong.

The red commas are what I call "parenthetical commas," which is the name I came up with but might be their name anyhow. I call them that because commas are versatile little buggers; you can use them to replace almost any other mark. The red ones are being used to replace parentheses. In other words, your first paragraph could look like this:

The lunch party broke up just after three o'clock. Trixie Llewellyn-Jones (the ministers wife) left first, some parish work to attend to. She was soon followed by Bella Mason (the new Hawksworth High Shool principal) who also gave a lift to Carol Johnson and her rather odd little partner Lois.

...Except that it doesn't. Because you left some commas out, it actually looks like this:

The lunch party broke up just after three o'clock. Trixie Llewellyn-Jones (the ministers wife left first, some parish work to attend to. She was soon followed by Bella Mason (the new Hawksworth High School principal who also gave a lift to Carol Johnson and her rather odd little partner Lois.

When you look at it that way, it becomes obvious where the commas are missing and why their absence is missing. It's harder to see when they're commas and not parentheses, I grant you that, but hard or not, it's something you'll need to learn. Because you leave them out a lot, and those mistakes.


2) TECHNICALS, pt II. As I mentioned previously, commas are versatile enough to replace almost any punctuation mark you could ask them to. And you ask them to do so a lot. Consider the following two paras:

Frances Gear" replied Susan. "I've only met her once, she seems very nice, we'll make sure she's invited to the next one. You do think we should do it again?"

"Oh yes, I thought today was really good and everyone got on so well. Carol's partner Lois is a bit of an oddity though, isn't she, rather quiet and somehow a bit cold. Mind you it's not surprising really, Carol can talk enough for two and she is a bit domineering."

Completely aside from the missing close-dialogue-line comma after Frances' name, you have a bunch of commas where you should have other markings.

Frances Gear," replied Susan. "I've only met her once; she seems very nice. we'll make sure she's invited to the next one. You do think we should do it again?"

"Oh yes! I thought today was really good and everyone got on so well. Carol's partner Lois is a bit of an oddity though, isn't she?--rather quiet and somehow a bit cold. Mind you it's not surprising really: Carol can talk enough for two and she is a bit domineering."

The colon may be a bit of a stretch, but notice that I have successfully switched almost every punctuation mark in existence into these two paragraphs, replacing commas that really shouldn't've been there. (If you're wondering, the only two marks I didn't use were the hyphen and the "interrobang," which is obsolete anyhow; nowadays it's represented by just having the question/exclamation combo.) (Please note that the question mark followed by the dash / double hyphen is a structure of my own devising, but it gets the point across.)

Is my repunctuation correct? No, not necessarily. The paragraphs, as written, are bumpy and somewhat without flow, but they do the job well enough. Having said that, there are other paras which are just a mess. You need an editor. More pertinently, you need to edit before you post.

Maybe it's an Australian thing: I did work for waratah a while back, and he had the exact same problem you do. But here's the simple truth of it: Punctuation marks are like traffic signs on the side of the road. They help keep things organized and under control so that everybody can get where they are going. Signs keep cars in order; punctuation marks keep words in order. Without them, you have collisions and fatalities.

I know that your main goal right now is to express yourself and get this story, which feels like it's trying to burn its way out of your skull, out to the masses. I appreciate that feeling and respect it. But the thing is this: that's why you need to punctuate. What you have put on the page right now is not your story, it's a pile of words that happen to have your story in it. What will organize the pile into a meaningful experience is punctuation.

Besides, would you get into a car with someone who quite blatantly ignored road signs? I wouldn't. Your story is that car; you are that driver. I don't trust it or you to take me somewhere without causing death and blood.

That's all I've got for now, but frankly I think it's enough for you to work on. Hope it helps. =)

 

[myrionomos]

Punctuation

Thank you C Watson for your detailed response. I apologise for my dilatory reply but was away at the beach for a couple of days. Firstly, I note your warning that I should be careful what I wish for. I think, however, that one can hardly cavil at even the most trenchant criticism, if it is made with fairness and integrity.

So far as your general point, that the punctuation needs improvement, I accept that entirely. With regard to the individual examples, you argue your points consistently and I agree with most, but perhaps not quite all of them. Hopefully, those fall into the area of discretion you refer to.

I note your advice that I should get an editor, and advise that I have managed to persuade my current editor to leave this response to me!

It is unusual I think to receive a 600+ word technical criticism of the initial 190 words of a story, but considering the pain you have suffered, I won't ask you to examine the following 14,100 in similar detail.

A few points:-

1. What does the content of the brackets mean, () and the one you used at the end ( =) ) ?

2 Do you use or follow a specific book of rules with regard to punctuation?

Now, your general point about Australian punctuation. Firstly, I was educated entirely in Scotland and England, so that doesn't seem to be the answer. I think it is fair to say though, that American punctuation conventions seems to follow rules rather more strictly than do British or Australian. Others may hold a different view.

SR71plt might have an interesting view on that point, because he co-authors with an Australian sometimes, and is himself a very good editor.

I regret that you could not enjoy the story but thank you anyway.

 

[CWatson]

Err... Those are emoticons, also called smileys. The =) one is just a smile, but is meant to indicate confusion. Eye-mouth-eye, see the shape?

As to the rules... Mmm, the best manual I can suggest is "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" by Lynne Truss. Wonderful stuff, both educational and entertaining.

 

[colddiesel]

I had an hour or so to kill today and rooting around the Boards I found this thread. It's not so much a criticism of the work of Myrionomos( M ) as an unreserved trashing of the story by CWatson (CW ). Mmm' thought I, this must be good, so I read it...and I was so surprised that I read all three chapters, plus the two posted subsequently.

The questions which form in my mind are:-

1. Is CW, either an asshole, who has successfully and unjustifiably trashed M's work and reputation?

2. Or is CW a sage and responsible critic, who has analysed M's work with fairness and integrity?

Further examination might be helpful:

CW limits himself to "technicals"

M in her (and I'm guessing female) response worked it out that CW had considered the first 200 words or so out of 14,300, that is, he read the first 1.5%. Indeed, had CW made it to chapter 2 he would have realised from the preface that he had pronounced sentence and execution by examining less than half of one % of the whole project. That's heroic criticism!

Now, what does CW consider to be a "Technical" issue? He doesn't offer a calibration, or define an acceptable standard, either objectively or comparatively. In fairness, it is difficult to do so, and he deals with it by citing examples and states whether they are either, absolutely wrong, or merely wrong in his opinion.

It might be useful to compare M with other Lit authors and also note Technical issues ignored by CW.


Grammar: CW No Comment I say Good-Top5%.

Spelling: CW No Comment I say Good-Top5%.

Punctuation CW says Awful- A "mess" I say Bad and Good.

Vocabulary CW No Comment I say Good.

Readability Unreadable?. I say Surprisingly readable


CW purported to make a "Technicals" review but completely ignored three important headings. In essence his technicals review was entirely about punctuation. In that respect his comment were entirely accurate when dealing with particular examples but omission of major issues, generally favourable to M unfortunately undermine his credibility as a critic. Criticism, in my view is much more effective, if it is not only fair, but seen to be fair and complete.

CW's comments and examples on punctuation were accurate and necessary. However, even they were incomplete. M's use of apostrophes, a pitfall for many first timers, was generally sound, as was her use of quotation marks. CW also, probably because he read so little, failed to spot another problem; M was very inconsistent in her capitalisation of the first word within quotation marks.

Readability is not a criteria which is easy to define but is easy to recognise . Despite the shortcomings in punctuation, M is surprisingly easy to read.

Now to summarise my opinions

M was naive at least, inviting rigorous criticism as she did because even if she felt it was unfair, it put her in the position that she would be shown as a whiner if she complained. Looking for fairness and integrity in a critic is reasonable but maybe optimistic!

CW's critcism of M's punctuation was entirely reasonable in itself, but he was unreasonable, firstly in not noting her good points, and secondly, not putting a bit more effort in and reading further.

My third criticism is of the 150 odd people who have read this thread. You all seem to have swallowed CW's comments uncritically, with the result that none of you has helped M achieve her earlier ambition of more feedback, either here or after the stories.

My conclusions are

1 That M really does need to sort out her punctuation, but the remainder of her work indicates that she is well capable of doing so. Ignore the patronising comment at the end of CW's piece, but take close notice of his comments on punctuation .

2 That CW did need to point that out, but hubris overcame him and he killed off any further discussion (inadvertantly) through the certainty of his vehemence. So not an asshole, on the data so far, but maybe needs to learn not to dive in quite so hastily.

3 Maybe M should read Ch 5 of her story and consider whether she needs to try harder, and maybe CW might do the same, and consider whether she has done enough yet, to warrant rehabilitation.

 

[CWatson]

CW's critcism of M's punctuation was entirely reasonable in itself, but he was unreasonable, firstly in not noting her good points, and secondly, not putting a bit more effort in and reading further.

Why? You've noted them for me.

Maybe it does make me an asshole, but the simple fact is that I don't see much need to waste time propping up a writer's ego. Especially because there are a lot of other readers on this site who are possessed of varying levels of discernment and will happily spend time gushing over just about anything, and telling every writer how awesome they are. I've experienced it for myself: people who were so enamored of the story I wrote (for whatever reason) that they didn't even notice mistakes I had come back and seen later. There are lots of people who will do this. If I, then, have a choice between providing concrete feedback or simply echoing the praise of others, which is more helpful? Anyone can write a Thank You card. Not everyone can edit.

And as to not putting more effort... Well, yeah, I didn't. The story turned me off. But the thing is, that's a valid response. Sometimes The Writer makes so many errors, or one incredibly glaring error, that The Reader says, "Screw this, it's not worth my time, I'm going to go read something else." And that's a reaction myrionomos should be informed of. The question every writer asks their editor is, "What did I write," and in this case the answer is, "Something I couldn't stand to get through." Obviously this answer is subjective - especially since I'm a picky son-of-a-bitch - but if one person had it, others might. Besides, I'm doing this for free: the only thing making me want to read on is... well, there isn't. I don't owe myrionomos anything. Of course, s/he doesn't owe me anything either and can ignore any or all of my advice at his/her discretion. It's free advice; it's worth what you paid for it.

I explain all this, myrionomos, so you understand my motivations and why I criticize the way I do. You don't have to listen to me. I have provided (what I think is) useful advice, but I'm only one writer, and not an especially great one either. You should follow your own conscience int his matter, and in any involving writing. Do what pleases you. My job, as an editor, is simply to say, "Here's how readers are likely to react to the things that please you," so that you can make a more-informed decision.

 

[sr71plt]

I see nothing too critical or too limited or wrong (although, in noting missing commas, a couple were missed in a quoted example: it should be "Carol's partner, Lois," if Carol only has the one partner) in what CWatson posted.

No one who isn't paying $150 for a full edit of a 14,000-word story should expect a full critique. (And I don't see that the OP asked for one.) CWatson concentrated on one aspect of the piece and clearly said it was only one aspect of the piece. There should be no expectation of having to provide a full-blown critique of a 14,000-word piece or pick something "good" out to balance limited comment on one aspect of a story. It's the OP soliciting help, not CWatson deciding to give it unsolicited.

Take what you're given, use what you can, ignore what you don't think is helpful or correct, say "thank you" when it has been as detailed as this, and then decide whether you can take asking for help the next time you consider doing so.

On punctuation, which this focuses on, you can certainly gauge bad habits (and we all have them) in the work on an initial read of a couple of hundred words. And again, this is volunteered help (and quite detailed and standard editing, I might add), so a complete edit shouldn't be expected.

I thought CWatson was both respectful and informative (and helpful. Nice to see criticism here that actually is based in knowledge of the field) in the comments given. The bounds of the critique were established and maintained. CWatson didn't "owe" the author more than the extent of comment he'd said he'd give.

I think colddeisel is out of bounds on his criticism of what CWatson gave.

I think, if this was edited, I'd probably be looking for an editor with more training/ability on punctuation--or, if it is what Australian style supports, is willing and able to defend the punctuation issues seen in this.

Beyond that, I don't have anything to comment on about the story thus far either. Doesn't mean I'm saying it's either good or bad. I haven't read any of it--and don't really plan to. I'm just not looking at any more than what is being attacked here--CWatson's comments, which were solicted by the author, were extensive and, were all given, as far as I can see, in an effort to be constructive and helpful.

On the Australian English thing, yes my coauthor is Australian, and, yes, I sense there are differences in Australian style and both American and UK styles. I'm no expert in those differences, though. I know many of the differences between American and British style, as I've worked in both. But my coauthor and I determined early that we were writing for the American market, therefore it's American style we impose on ourselves. Sorry that I can't help with that.

So, if you want to post here in Australian style, I guess you should find an Australian editor--and one who is strong enough in her/his editing to go to bat for you on the style used when criticism comes up.

On punctuation in general, publishing uses more (especially commas) than anyone in any English-speaking country is taught to use for everyday use these days. That's because publishing is conservative and goes to the lowest common denominator on what will clearly mark the story's roadmap for the reader.

On sources to use, the one CWatson cites (Eats, Shoots, Leaves) is a good one. Not comprehensive by any means, nor turned to first by publishers. U.S. publishing uses The Chicago Manual of Style for humanities (which includes all fiction), Fowler's Modern English Usage, Bernstein's The Careful Writer, and Zinsser's On Writing Well. For simple explanations, I suggest American Heritage's English Usage. For really simplied explanations, in workshops I've used Daniels and Daniels, English Grammar, and Ehrlich's Punctuation, Capitalization, and Spelling, both of which give extensive, mostly clear, examples. (Some of the other authorities avoid even mentioning the sort of sticky situations that always seem to be the ones that crop up). For a fun read on the topic, in addition to the one CWatson cites, you could refer to Gordon's The Transitive Vampire.

Maybe an Aussie here can cite an Australian-style authority.

 

[Verdad]

Hi, Myrionomos,

I rarely give feedback these days, but I got curious about this thread and decided to give it a shot.

I'll have to agree with CW on one point: Your punctuation problems are very distracting. I'd be careful about accepting just any old advice, though, because his suggestions for the second para made me squirm.

While some finer points of punctuation send even the pro's to reference books, and while I can't comment on Aussie rules, you really need to learn only two things in order to drastically improve the readability of your prose: One, how to punctuate dialogue, and two, to avoid run on sentences. These two will take you a long way, and as for the rest, I hope you seek and receive some decent guidance.

The good news is, I kept reading despite these distractions, which is a tribute to your story telling ability. What makes the reader turn the page is wondering what happens next, and you know how to achieve that. The first two chapters, albeit slower, achieve it just well enough, and afterwards the story really picks up. Since there are still 15 chapters to go, I can't comment on how well the story works as a whole, but what you've done so far gives me confidence it's going to have all the proper parts.

Admittedly, punctuation isn't the only rough spot in your writing. Here and there there's an awkward turn of phrase, a place where you're telling when you could be showing, a couple of stilted dialogue lines, relying on dialogue where perhaps a bit of exposition would give respite, and so on. All together, these give your prose a feel of a rough draft, but they do not obscure the basic story telling talent. As a reader who's never cared for romantic comedy and a reader who's beyond bored with smut, I was still delighted with the air of freshness in your work. A delicate sense of humor permeates it, allowing you to get away with a lot without it appearing clichéd.

I realize these are but broad impressions, but if you'd like an opinion on something specific, you can ask. I (sincerely) hope you keep writing and learning how to iron out those rough spots.

Best wishes,
Verdad

 

[elfin_odalisque]

From my experience of Australian (and NZ) style, admittedly all non-fiction, it seems to follow Brit style much more closely than US style (except for vocabulary).

The 'Oxford A-Z of Grammar and Punctuation' seems a fairly standard tome in many an Aussie cube I've frequented.

But for the bigger issue of publishing and editing, the equivalent of the CMS seems to be the 'Australian Government Style Guide for Authors, Editors and Printers'.

Lynne Truss's book is defined as 'humor/reference', hardly an authority. The twist in the title is evidence of that.

I think colddiesel overreacted greatly but I would suggest that CW was a tad OTT. I've only read the first page, but the problem isn't understanding about commas etc. The piece needs a copy edit to spot the erros of punctuation that all authors make. There are all kinds of glitches with commas, periods, even question/exclamation marks.

myrionomos, sorry for hijacking your thread but I will read more and make a comment in the next day or so - unlike those who steal your thread then offensively say they can't be bothered to read your writing. Shame on them - this is a volunteer site. If someone implies they need to be paid to read a story, just call them 'Scouries'!

 

[sr71plt]

Couldn't resist a swipe at me, could you Elfin?--which was the whole reason you've posted on this thread, of course.

I wasn't inferring that either CWatson or I should have been paid to do a full critique of this. I was posting to what anyone owes to an author seeking free help here (nothing--but a good job, if response is given--not something you always manage in your nonstandard quirks). I, for one, wouldn't take on the editing or a full review of it. And it has nothing to do with story or the author. I'm really busy writing and posting stories myself--which, of course, you're not.

It is true, though, that I limit my volunteer editing here (do you do any, incidentally?--want to compare authors we edit for here?) because it takes away time I can devote to paid editing (do you do any, incidentally?).

I won't apologize for not taking on comprehensive voluntary editing from this forum, nor should CWatson have to. He provided help on an aspect of this request, the request not having asked for anything more than that, he carefully didn't claim it was a comprehensive edit or review, and he did a good job of what he provided. And he showed a whole lot more understanding of writing and editing than you ever have done here.

I might add that whereas colddiesel was demanding a full, comprehensive edit on this thread, I've never seen him volunteer any help on writing on this forum whatsoever. I doubt he has a clue about what time and effort--as well as expertise--that this would demand. This when, obviously, CWatson had given the request a lot of time and attention. I found colddiesel's post way out in left field, and that was the only aspect of this thread that prompted me to post at all. (Even when the author asked me privately to take a look at the issue--I didn't even know where this thread was until colddiesel posted his attack.)

Again, an editor doesn't have to read a whole work to be able to point to some punctuation/style bad habits--which we all have. It's a big, constructive help just to do this. CWatson gave good help here. (Which you didn't do until you saw the opportunity to make a swipe at me.)

Nor have I seen you show that you have the vaguest notion how to write/present good erotica. You keep hinting you're going to post a story, but you haven't done so for years, not since your triumphant win on your bra size essay.

As for your comment on the story needing an editor, did you miss the author's claim that it had been edited? (And that it was "edited" certainly means the author tried to get it in good shape, so don't make this about criticism of the author.) Was that perhaps you?