Editing blues

[Violet]

What do you guys do when your editor insults your intelligence or questions things in your story that shouldn't be questioned (if they'd read it correctly)?

Has this happened to anyone or am I just paranoid?

I have worked so hard on my story and don't want to give up b/c of all the countless months and time, but... I feel so discouraged! This editor trashed my story so badly that I don't think I could EVER have it fixed!

Someone tell me you understand puleeeze!

 

[Bob Waters]

NG

Get a new editor. The editor is not supposed to be a critic unless you ask him or her to be one. Basic editing should include spelling and grammer and possibly readability -if you ask for it.

Please, submit your story as is or send it to another editor. Let the readers decide and not some self-appointed expert.

While I am far from a good speller and am not anal enough to be a grammarian (that was meant to be good natured guys! lol) I do know if a secentance is structured properly and I would be happy to proof your story for readability. I will give you gentle feed back if you would like. Feel free to send it to lepeu@excite.com. If you are interested, I have one story on the site under the name Bob Waters and 2 on the way.

 

[LadyChance]

Hi just wanted to let you know no I don't know how that feels yet but my first story should be coming up soon I hope and I was terrified that the editor wouldn't like it but she did and so I wrote another one but I had to make several changes to it first what this rambling is all about if you quit now how are you ever going to learn by your mistakes and get better at it? I was lucky and it took me two yrs before I turned mine into anywhere to be posted for fear of being turned down but you know I actually wanted to know if it was any good and would have excepted what ever my editor had said whether it was good or bad because that way I would learn from it but quitting is not the answer here but jumping back in and giving it another try maybe look at your story with a new side maybe you will see a better way of saying what you want said. Let me know what you decide I would love to read one of your stories no I am not a proofer never good enough for that but love to read them lol.Hope this helped some and wasn't to long.

 

[Whispersecret]

Since I've only written one complete story, I've never had a story "trashed," but I have had some very specific criticism that I disagreed with from editors.

Speaking of disagreement, I disagree with Lepeu. (No offense, sir. )Frankly, I depend on my editors to tell me anything they feel they need to. If an editor feels the need to point out an inconsistency or something that doesn't ring true for them, I WANT them to. I can get too close to my own work to see things that should be obvious. For instance, a friend just pointed out that a fantasy sequence in my current story was more of a woman's fantasy than a man's, which was the opposite of what I wanted. When I thought about it objectively, I saw that they were right. Changing this will involve major rewriting (basically I'll have to trash about 8 pages), but I'm grateful that they said that. My story will be better now.

AFter reading "Hostile Takeover" Weird Harold told me that my sentences were way too long. <laughs as she remembers> Well, I ranted and raved for half a day. I was outraged to say the least. (Who the hell was he to tell me my sentences were too long? I can't believe he fucking counted the number of words! Etc.) Then after I calmed down a little, I looked at my sentences. I very grudgingly had to admit that he was right. Some of them were pretty lengthy. Thanks, Harold.

Also, with "Hostile Takeover," Wordmage read the first chapter and sent the thing back covered with red comments. What he wanted changed was going to require a lot of work, which was disconcerting, considering that I felt it was as polished as I could make it. However, he also was right about almost everything he pointed out. I was basically being lazy, and he wasn't letting me get away with it. The original version was good, but with the revisions I made from his suggestions, it became much more than it had been.

(I'm not suggesting that you've been lazy, Violet. That was my OWN experience.)

Other editors have pointed out things they thought needed fixing, but in my opinion it seemed that they just hadn't read carefully enough. HOWEVER, I still approach that type of situation with this frame of mind: What if this person isn't the only one who will read this and be confused? What if other men read this and say, "Puleeze, my dick never did THAT." So, without jeopardizing my "vision" I'll usually go back and carefully tweak it a little so that part is a little clearer, more descriptive, or whatever.

I don't want it to seem like I just automatically change something whenever someone suggests it. I don't. At all! It's just that a lot of the time I can see what the editor was thinking, and even if he/she didn't read it carefully, my writing can almost always be tighter and cleaner.

It's very, very difficult not to take criticism personally, but you must. I suggest that you step away from your story a little bit. Right now you might just be too emotionally tied to this story, and some time away might clarify your thinking. (And again, I'm not suggesting that your thinking is muddled!) I've found more than once that a break from a particular story helps me be able to come back to it refreshed and with a better frame of mind. That can only be a good thing.

So, take a break, then come back and look at your story as objectively as you can, change what you think needs to be changed, leave what you think is fine. It's your story; you be the judge.

I wish you good luck. I can only say that, to me, my writing has become very important to me and it's something I feel I can be proud of because I've worked hard (and continue to work hard) to develop my skill such as it is. It's not easy, but nothing worthwhile is.

 

[Violet]

Lep: Thank you for your offer; should I decide to continue with this particular story you will be the first to hear from me.

Ladych: Thank you for the symphathy!! It was much appreciated!

Whisper: I don't mind constructive criticism and have been very patient at reading what people have had to say about my stories 99% of the time. It was just that in this particular case, the editor pretty much wanted to change about 99% of the story. This would make the story not mine, but theirs. Besides,I DID read through their comments, and of course quite a few were great suggestions, but others I read over and over. I showed it to a friend, and without my explaining it to them, they agreed with me.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Violet, your post was good, but I'd rework it in the Third Person and include a flasback scene about writing in grade school, and add some combative dialogue like, "You trashed my story, and now you must DIE by my hand on the seventh day of the seventh month!" Then re-write the whole thing in the style of Balzac without using the letter "e".

------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with Lepeu. Find another editor. Too many editors try to re-write and doctor instead of edit. BUT -- the hardest about critique is not giving it, or even taking it, but knowing how to ASK for it. Be clear about what you want from you editor. If you say, "Just give me general comments" then be prepared for all sorts of unwanted suggesitons and red-lining. Be specific. "Just check the structure and let me know if the protagonist is sympathetic." or "I'm trying a colloquial grammar and need to know if sounds authentic." etc. etc.

Good luck.

 

[Whispersecret]

The Literotica Volunteer Editors should do what you ask them to do. The bottom line is indeed that it is YOUR Story. If they suggest too much, ignore it.

However, in my jaunt as Volunteer, I found that most of the time people didn't ask for specific things, like DCL suggests. In fact, sometimes they didn't ask, period. They just sent the story with no note or anything. I don't think many of them KNEW what to ask for beyond proofing for mistakes. Conversely, sometimes I DID ask for specific things to be looked at, but then the Volunteer failed to pinpoint those specific areas. <shrugs> I guess, just remember these people are volunteers with a wide range of experience in editing and writing.

Let me say in my own defense, that I haven't interacted with a professional editor, and neither, I think, has your average Literotica Author. So, perceptions about an editor's true responsibilities are influenced by many things and perhaps skewed because of this.

A writing teacher once told me that when critiquing someone else's work one should make suggestions whenever one points out a perceived weakness in a story. But perhaps that only applies in a classroom situation where people are still working on a project and not looking at a final draft. <shrugs>

So, the bottom line is: I'm not an editor. Because I'm a teacher by profession, it's in my nature to want to tutor people in my "editing." I'm really more of a sounding board. But it doesn't really matter what I call myself anyway, because I'm no longer on the Volunteer list. <smiles wryly>

 

[LadyChance]

I guess I must be easy to get along with then. I asked for everything to be looked at, including subjestions to what could be better. I am not the greatest of spellers or grammer so it's nice to have someone else do it. I just like to write. Violet don't stop writing your story it's proably really good try to send it to someone else. See what they have to say before giving it up ok?

 

[Weird Harold]

I can't believe he fucking counted the number of words! Etc.) Then after I calmed down a little, I looked at my sentences. I very grudgingly had to admit that he was right. Some of them were pretty lengthy. Thanks, Harold.

I didn't count the words. That's what the word count and readability statistics functions are for. <G>

This thread should be required reading for anyone who volunteers as an editor. Violet's reaction is a result of an apparently tactless crtitique of her story by an editor that forgot the difference between an editor and a co-author.

I will generally comment on a part of a story that I think needs work whether asked specifically or not. I try to pharase the comment to make it clear why I think it needs to be changed. I'm also more than willing to discuss with an author any comments they don't understand or disagree with. Many of my comments are phrased as questions, with the intent of making the authors think about what they intended to convey.

For me, the whole point is to give the author an idea of whether they are communicating with the reader. If a comment relates to grammar or syntax, then I try to explain the rule or refer the author to a source that explains it better than I can. If a comment is an opinion or an impression, then I try to remember to clearly mark it as such.

In the final analysis, it is the author's story and they are free to ignore everything I say.

In the story I'm currently working on, there is a phrase that was a favorite of my grandmother's. Every editor has commented on that phrase in one way or another, but it is going to stay in the story, because I like it.

That particular story is in it's eighth revision, and should be done soon. There are still a few points that editors pointed out that I haven't quite decided how to address.

One thing I have noticed, is that not every editor is suitable for every author. Some authors need help with the very basic elements of writing, and others need help with the more esoteric elements of story-telling. Some editors are better at the mechanics, and others are better at the story-telling. Some are fast, and others are very slow.

Each author needs to find an editor that provides the level and quality of feedback that fits their personality and style. If you try an editor and don't like what you get back, then send them a message saying "thanks for your time," and find an editor that fits your needs.

 

[Whispersecret]

Hey, there, Harold! <kisses you on the cheek> I kinda sorta remember you telling me "This sentence has ___ words. That sentence is ___ words long..." But it doesn't matter now. I got the message. I probably still write sentences here and there that are too long, but we're all continually learning.

Is the phrase you're talking about that "black cat in a mine" phrase? Just wondering... <winks>

 

[Skibum]

Violet, I'm not trying to be critical here, but I think that you need to get a thicker skin if you plan on writing very much. An editor is freely giving his or her time to help you make your story readable. If they have suggestions you don't like, ignore them, but please don't take it personally.

When I first started writing I deliberately chose the editor that I thought would be the toughest on my work, based on the blurb they had placed in the volunteer editor section. The first time I saw all the red and yellow notes on MY story, I nearly gave up, but it was a lot easier to fix the errors than I imagined it would be. Without the help of a volunteer editor my first attempt at a readable stoy would have been a failure. I am sure thankful for my editor, and for the volunteer editor program on Literotica.

 

[Violet]

Thank you for all of you who replied to this post.

I have decided to continue with the story, as it has continued beckoning me while I was away.

Dixon: that was funny, I needed that! You are such a clever one!

Skibum: point taken... yes I am quite grateful for the volunteer editors I promise!

Lady: thanks for the inspiration.... it was just what I needed.

WH: Thank you for a very well thought out reply. I agree with what you said and I am going to send it to another editor from now on.

Whisper: I never even knew you were "on" the volunteer list but if you are a teacher and have the time, maybe you should get back on?

Anyway, back to my story.
I know that my editor has read this post, and for that I feel rather guilty. If I could have shielded this person from reading this post, I would have, but alas, I am not superwoman and cannot turn back the hands of time; what is done is done.

What I CAN say is that I DID go back through and read again the editing (lengthy as it was) and did take advantage of some of the suggestions which were rather good. I know they did not mean it personally when they made insults, etc. and I hope they hold nothing against me either.

Thanks again everyone for putting up with my raging author emotions!

 

[Katerina Val-Kyrie]

I love my editor, she is awesome! Sometimes in her busy schedule I still bug her to edit and she never says no. She it tough, but I like tough, I like challenges. Whisper, thanks so much for being my editor in the past, and hopefully in the future....You only make things better!

Hugs Kat

 

[Violet]

I love my editor, she is awesome! Sometimes in her busy schedule I still bug her to edit and she never says no. She it tough, but I like tough, I like challenges. Whisper, thanks so much for being my editor in the past, and hopefully in the future....You only make things better!

Hugs Kat

That is great!
Thanks for sharing!

 

[Whispersecret]

Whisper: I never even knew you were "on" the volunteer list but if you are a teacher and have the time, maybe you should get back on?

Even though I'm no longer on the Volunteer List, I still (NO! I'm NOT going to say the E-word!) critique when my friends ask me to. Along with my own writing, that takes up quite a chunk of time. I'm also single-handedly editing/publishing my son's PTA/school newsletter, and serving a term as secretary for the PTA, which is a bigger job than I anticipated. Maybe if I can develop the ability to "Just Say No" when I'm too busy, I will put myself back into circulation, but until then, I'll stay retired.

I'm sure your editor didn't take what you said personally, Violet. Just as I'm sure she didn't intend to insult you or to take over your story. As long as you feel your story has been improved, that is what you both were striving toward anyway. Right?

You're quite welcome, Kat. It's a pleasure to work with someone so passionate about their writing. I think your commitment to perfecting each and every story you write is admirable. Now if we could only find a synonym for "swirling!" <winks>



[Edited by whispersecret on 07-10-2000 at 11:36 PM]

 

[Katerina Val-Kyrie]

hehehe

OH God, Whisper, you made me laugh and it's so early...still giggling...hehehehehe...I will try try try to find a new word.

Anyone out there, that can come up with a word for swirling, please let me know...and circling won't cut it...

Swirling tongue, circling tongue....and ?????????????

You have my thanks beforehand....Hugs Katerina

 

[Gary1]

Swirling: hmmmmm, how about: rotating, milling around, eddy, flowing, running, coursing, pouring, ebbing, regurgitating, regressing, surging, breaking, dashing, rippling, poppling, wrinkling, rolling, swelling, bucking, bouncing, leaping, gushing, rushing, spurting, spouting, spewing, effusing, jetting, playing, squirting, spluttering, welling, welling up, bubbling up, issueing, emerging, streaming, trickling, dribbling, exuding, dripping, dropping, descending, splashing, or washing.

Or, swashing, sloshing, moistening, flowing softly, purling, trilling, murmurring, babbling, bubblling, burbling, gurgling, guggling, gliding, sliding, flowing over, overflowing, cascading, falling, flooding, inundating, deluging, drenching, flowing into, falling into, draining into, emptying into, spilling into, leaking into, distilling into, entering, running off, discharging itself, flowing out, flowing through, leaking, oozing, percolating, passing through, winding, meandering, elapsings, lapsing, rolling, proceeding, advancing, pressing on, progressing, overflowing, overwhelming or turning around.

Or how about, spinning, twirling, pirouetting, corkscrewing, twining, gyring, gyrating, waltzing, wheeling, milling around, trundling, rolling along, spinning, churning, whisking, spooling, thronging, swarming, seething, agitating, bustling, rushing, rampaging, moving fastly, scooting, skedaddling, scampering, scurrying, skeltering, scuttling, bustling, hurrying, hastening, fretting, fidgeting, darting, streaming, rolling on, drifting, purling, babbling, rippling, and lapping.

Just thought I would throw out a few suggestions ... lol

 

[Whispersecret]

<glances at Gary1> Interesting...

Dezerae moaned as her lover's skedaddling tongue drove her to the peaks of pleasure.

Nah. I don't think so. Since when did skedaddling become a synonym for swirling??? Or regurgitating? What kind of alien thesaurus are you looking at, man?

 

[Violet]

LOL!!!

(btw:... whisper... you are a GURU!!)

 

[Katerina Val-Kyrie]

Gary, Gary...

*OMG* Laughing at Gary and Whisper, you guys kill me, here I am laughing and it's not even 7AM yet, hehehehe. Gary, I just knew you would answer my question, you always respond to my posts without fail. Thank you. I have to agree with Whisper though, *LOL* quite the range of interesting words you picked for snynonyms. I would like to see this thesaurus too. If you did not use one, your mind is truly imaginative. Hehehe, I will see what I can do...

Hugs Katerina

[Edited by Katerina on 07-12-2000 at 04:13 AM]

 

[Tawny T]

May I make a analogy here? My brother is a professional photographer and a damn good one. He told of putting his photos up for judging. He agreed with all the comments the judges said about other peoples pictures - BUT - when they commented on his picture and found even a minor fault he almost went balistic. Finally he thought it through - he was rejecting all criticism on HIS photos.

He developed a mind-set. When he went into a photo show where his photos were on exhibition, he cleared his mind completely of any thought of his photos. He looked at each and every one as if it were the first time he had ever seen it. He knew nothing of the trials and trubulations that went into that photo. The looked at his photos completely objectively.

May I suggest each writer do that. After your story is written, lay it aside for a day or so. Then read it as if you did not know the plot, did not know what the next paragraph contained, or even the next sentence.

Just read it as if you were reading it for the first time and see if it makes sense, are the sentences too long, the paragraphs too long. Look at it completely objectively, then send it to an editor and ask for their help.

They are trying to help you! I hope the editors will give constructive advise to you. Nothing is gained by abusive advice from an editor. Good writing to you all.

 

[Violet]

Point taken

Tawny

I totally agree with you!
I did go back after calming down and many of her points were very valid and really helped me a lot. I have re-edited the story (for the 11th time) and am hoping I am almost ready to submit the first chapter.

It was just that some personal things were said and I could take them no other way. When someone tells you they are "ambivalent" about your story, should I step back and read that again in a month and I will feel better? I just don't know.

However, when they tell you you are an amateur and in their opinion should not write a multiple chapter story, that is just that, their opinion, and of course, I shouldn't have been upset by that. I suppose, reflecting back now that what upsets me the most is that I was "double-teamed" and that b/c this editor was esentially worshipped (lack of a better term) by another, that I have lost what I thought was a fabulous editor.

But, alas there are several other editors on this board who have been wonderful and I agree with everyone that is a terrific service offered her on lit. and I wasn't trying to criticize it in any way shape or form. I was simply trying to find people who could relate to how I was feeling.

I hope that my editor doesn't read this and get the wrong idea. I DO very much appreciate the time she spent on chapter one and graciously (again) apologize if she was offended in any way.

 

[H. Crap Whitman]

Hmmph.

 

[Whispersecret]

I shall officially come out of the closet. I wasn't sure at first if Violet was talking about me because the story I "edited" was written under another name, but since then I've found out that *I* am She Who Trashes Stories.

Violet, I accept your apology, and I hope you'll accept mine. It also took me a while to be able to look that the situation completely objectively. Some of what I wrote appeared condescending, and for that I am sorry. Appearing and acting superior is a fault of mine that I battle daily. Truly. Some of what I wrote in my commentary was directed at you, the writer, and not at your story. It is that section that I apologize for. Please forgive me.

One last note about the nature of editing. What I think we need to keep in mind is that if you want someone to just look for mistakes in grammar, punctuation, syntax, etc., then you want a PROOFREADER. It's my understanding that editors do more. Those of you seeking either service should specify which you want and if you want an editor, be prepared.

 

[Violet]

Whisper:

1) Thanks for your sweet words and for your encouragement.

2) I was shocked that you "came out of the closet" (even though I was more "offended" actually more your "buddy" than you.) You haven't been half as personal as him in reality. In fact, retrospectively ... I may have transferred some of what he said into having came from you...?

3) I agree with you that proofreading and editing are distinctly different things and you and I both know that I wanted editing. (And I got it!)

Thanks for being the most mature in all of this and don't ever change... you are fabulous "dahling"!! (spelled that way on purpose!)