"Dying to protect our freedoms."

[Lancecastor]

I see these words in posts here by americans and hear the same sentiments now and then on american teevee.

Do people really think their freedom is being protected in Iraq? Do you think these people are going to invade the USA in amphibious 1978 white Toyota pick ups and take over the USA with AK-47's or something?

The loss of freedoms experienced by americans since Bush was elected are staggering in scope and number. People can be arrested for suspicion, held without bail, homes entered without warrants, phones tapped, credit card data accessed...the list goes on.

I find the scale and audacity of the Lies being perpetrated on US citizens under the cover of your flag to be both hilarious and staggering at the same time.

Do you really believe that stuff?

Curiously

Lance

 

[Saint Peter]

Hey Lance, if you don't like it move to Canada or something.

Oh. Nevermind.

 

[crysede]

All wars are sold on lies – including the Canadian Government's selling of WW1, WW2, and Gulf War1.

Just because it's sold to the people with lies, doesn't automatically mean that a war is unjustified

 

[Lancecastor]

Hey Lance, if you don't like it move to Canada or something.

Oh. Nevermind.

Are you people that cowed by your indoctination that all you can do is make fun of and villanize your critics? (that's what tyrants like Saddam do)

In Canada we routinely lambaste our leaders when they screw up. Perhaps our electoral system, in which the leader only gets power if he/she gets enough supporters elected in individual ridings...is a better way of controlling runaway crazies from holding power.

 

[Saint Peter]

Are you people that cowed by your indoctination that all you can do is make fun of and villanize your critics? (that's what tyrants like Saddam do)

In Canada we routinely lambaste our leaders when they screw up. Perhaps our electoral system, in which the leader only gets power if he/she gets enough supporters elected in individual ridings...is a better way of controlling runaway crazies from holding power.

I never really thought of you as a critic, rather an antagonist.

Here in America we have elections and if the person fucks up we don't elect them next time around. Or in the case of Nixon, where he REALLY fucked up, we put him on a helicopter and move on from there.

Everybody is lied to Lance. Does not matter what country's flag hangs over your head.

 

[sufisaint]

I don't know of anyone or know of anyone who has been taken away in the night or detained indefinitely but i did know people who died in the towers and others who lost loved ones... I don't see the current administration waving the peace flag while it sends the FBI and the BTAF with tanks to burn out women and children in their own country like the last administration...our freedom vigilantly needs to be protected.....and Bless those brave women and men who serve...

 

[Linedrive]

The loss of freedoms experienced by americans since Bush was elected are staggering in scope and number. People can be arrested for suspicion, held without bail, homes entered without warrants, phones tapped, credit card data accessed...the list goes on.

While I am aware of your distaste for GW...are you honestly of the opinion that he is responsible for the above quoted...? September 11th was planned well in advance of GW ever getting into office. Aside from that he was inhereting a Clinton Administration that saw terrorism. The war against terror was being waged by the Islamic militants before GW was ever around, he's just the first one to act upon it instead of lobbing a couple cruise missles at a nearly deserted terrorist camp in Afghanistan.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: "Dying to protect our freedoms."

While I am aware of your distaste for GW...are you honestly of the opinion that he is responsible for the above quoted...? September 11th was planned well in advance of GW ever getting into office. Aside from that he was inhereting a Clinton Administration that saw terrorism. The war against terror was being waged by the Islamic militants before GW was ever around, he's just the first one to act upon it instead of lobbing a couple cruise missles at a nearly deserted terrorist camp in Afghanistan.

I think we've done the whole war on terrorism thing to death...I'm more interested in hearing more about your basic beliefs.

It seems to me that americans have always been relatively easy to whip into shape to go bomb distant enemies to "protect our freedoms".

Frankly, I find it far scarier that 275 million people can be so easily talked into killing en masse halfway around the world than the concept of people defending their homeland from invaders.

So I understand the concept of Iraqis arming themselves with pitiful old guns to try and keep the USA out of their country and find the desire to "(ob)liberate" them in the knowledge of this quite frightening.

And I wonder why it is so easy to get 70% approval in polls to go bomb a country that hasn't and can't attack you.

Strikes me as a huge waste of lives and money.

The US porn industry is bigger than NFL, MLB and NBA combined, at 38 billion a year.

The Us military will burn 75 billion in one month of killing. One month. And this is going to go on for at least a year or two before the place is "stabilized". Hundreds of billions, thousands of lives.

You could have built everyone in Iraq a house, sent them each a used Chevy and a trunk full of Levis & Coka Cola and achieved much better success if you just want them to live like You.

 

[Lovelynice]

All wars are sold on lies – including the Canadian Government's selling of WW1, WW2, and Gulf War1.

Just because it's sold to the people with lies, doesn't automatically mean that a war is unjustified

Yes, and neither does it automatically mean that the war is justified either.

Democracy only works when people are willing to actively THINK and QUESTION.

 

[Lancecastor]

All wars are sold on lies – including the Canadian Government's selling of WW1, WW2, and Gulf War1.

Just because it's sold to the people with lies, doesn't automatically mean that a war is unjustified

If you'd like to divorce the ability of Americans to be bamboozled by their governments under the banner of patriotism from the relative justness of any particular conflict, feel free....but the most common examples of Americans being mind controlled by patriotism always have to do with death and expansionism.

Even the lies around the space program's failures are wrapped in the flag and "exploring" new fields for the USA.

 

[Lasher]

Lance believes an Iraqi farmer shot down an Apache.

What else do you need to know?

 

[Linedrive]

Re: Re: Re: "Dying to protect our freedoms."

The Us military will burn 75 billion in one month of killing. One month. And this is going to go on for at least a year or two before the place is "stabilized". Hundreds of billions, thousands of lives.

You could have built everyone in Iraq a house, sent them each a used Chevy and a trunk full of Levis & Coka Cola and achieved much better success if you just want them to live like You.

I consider myself alot more aware of the news, politics and world events than the average American probably is. From everything I have read and researched, much of it from outside of the realm of American media, I have determined in my own mind that I do think Iraq poses a threat to America. We could sit here and debate, like you've mentioned it's gone around and around. This isn't a patriotic frenzy as many would paint it to be, I do not like the fact that people are being killed in this war everyday.

I'll maintain my opinion that diplomacy was torpedoed by the failure of the UN Security Council to reach a consesus, which isn't that big of a surprise. The one factor that nobody every talks about the price of innaction. We always here how much this war is going to cost, how many lives will be killed and how terrorism will increase. How about a terrorist attack involving a WMD in one of America or Britains cities...? Talk about millions or billions, five thousand, ten thousand lives lost and a ruined economy...?

 

[crysede]

Democracy only works when people are willing to actively THINK and QUESTION.

Here, here!

I've always said that the reason democracy doesn't work is that people are flawed, not the idea (of course I say the same thing about every other system of government, so one has to take me with a grain of salt )

I never really thought of you as a critic, rather an antagonist.

Really? I tend to think of him as playing the role of the "adversary" in Job.

There's probably room for a very interesting discussion of the socio-theological role he plays in the Lit narrative - someone should start a thread (oh wait, that's been done hasn't it, and it never got very interesting or theological - screw that *sigh*)

 

[Lovelynice]

Re: Re: "Dying to protect our freedoms."

While I am aware of your distaste for GW...are you honestly of the opinion that he is responsible for the above quoted...? September 11th was planned well in advance of GW ever getting into office. Aside from that he was inhereting a Clinton Administration that saw terrorism. The war against terror was being waged by the Islamic militants before GW was ever around, he's just the first one to act upon it instead of lobbing a couple cruise missles at a nearly deserted terrorist camp in Afghanistan.

So this is why it's perfectly okay to set into motion the building blocks of a police-state that is already terrorizing part of your own population and is slowly gaining a greater grip on doing it right?

It's perfectly okay then for the US government to ignore the Constitution of the United States of America and encourage police-forces around your nation to bend or ignore the basic rules of evidence, as long as they can claim that they're hunting terrorists.

It's perfectly fine then for 2,000 people to be "detained" incommunicado from their own families without any charges being laid, as long as the FBI can claim that these people "might" be terrorists.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: "Dying to protect our freedoms."

I have determined in my own mind that I do think Iraq poses a threat to America.

In which way?

ppman

 

[Lancecastor]

Lance believes an Iraqi farmer shot down an Apache.

What else do you need to know?

And you believe it's not possible...which supports my point on how easy it is for you people to be fooled as to your might=right=invincible nonsense.

Gunner...given that the 911 team came from and was financed by Saudi Arabia, I find action against Iraq puzzling at best.

Given that most of Iraq's now faded military capacity came from the USA, France and Russia, my guess is the west has a pretty good idea of what Iraq can and cant do.

Islamic fundamentalist-fuelled terrorism doesn't start or end in Iraq in my view.

That being said, thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Linedrive]

Re: Re: Re: "Dying to protect our freedoms."

So this is why it's perfectly okay to set into motion the building blocks of a police-state that is already terrorizing part of your own population and is slowly gaining a greater grip on doing it right?

It's perfectly okay then for the US government to ignore the Constitution of the United States of America and encourage police-forces around your nation to bend or ignore the basic rules of evidence, as long as they can claim that they're hunting terrorists.

It's perfectly fine then for 2,000 people to be "detained" incommunicado from their own families without any charges being laid, as long as the FBI can claim that these people "might" be terrorists.

Police State

What does anything you just posted have to do with anything I've said...?

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: "Dying to protect our freedoms."

Police State

What does anything you just posted have to do with anything I've said...?

Maybe she was referring to this part of my initial post:

"The loss of freedoms experienced by americans since Bush was elected are staggering in scope and number. People can be arrested for suspicion, held without bail, homes entered without warrants, phones tapped, credit card data accessed...the list goes on. "

The basic nugget of this thread is to try and understand what motivates Americans to be so blind to the glaring inconsistencies of what they say around the concept of "freedom" versus what they do, both at home and abroad.

Americans are reasonably well-educated people compared to those of other Republics...how does it happen that you can protect the KKK's rights while bombing shop keepers and children in Iraq, using "freedom" as the reason???

It makes no sense to me.

 

[crysede]

If you'd like to divorce the ability of Americans to be bamboozled by their governments under the banner of patriotism from the relative justness of any particular conflict, feel free....but the most common examples of Americans being mind controlled by patriotism always have to do with death and expansionism.

Even the lies around the space program's failures are wrapped in the flag and "exploring" new fields for the USA.

Same is true for Canada - in fact, seems to me you're just expressing a logical tautology.

• All governments use lies to incite patriotic support for wars
• All wars have to do with death and expansion
• Ergo, all governments lie to incite support for death and expansion QED

To use this fact to call the justification of a war into questions, amounts to saying that no war has ever been (or could ever be) a justified war.

Or perhaps you just meant to say that there in no such thing as a just war? In this case I agree with you, but 'just' is not the same as 'justified'.

 

[Lovelynice]

The war on terror is a simple-minded excuse for the US government to manipulate the American people into way too many things that have nothing to do with it.

 

[Linedrive]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Dying to protect our freedoms."

Maybe she was referring to this part of my initial post:

"The loss of freedoms experienced by americans since Bush was elected are staggering in scope and number. People can be arrested for suspicion, held without bail, homes entered without warrants, phones tapped, credit card data accessed...the list goes on. "

Okay, thanks for clearifying that. I don't like some of the activities that can be carried out under the Patriot Act or any of the other items in proposal. It's unfortunate that the same freedoms and laws that we hold in high regards can also benefit the enemies of our country. What do you do...?

* Stop illegal immigration...?
* Better border security...?

It's damned if you do and damned if you don't. Most Americans expect our government to not allow another Sept 11th. Stopping that kind of activity is not an easy proposition.

 

[Linedrive]

The war on terror is a simple-minded excuse for the US government to manipulate the American people into way too many things that have nothing to do with it.

You come across as the know it all type. Perhaps instead of the constant criticism and posts that reflect the "I am right and you are wrong" tone...try offering some solutions or ideas.

 

[crysede]

Re: Re: Re: "Dying to protect our freedoms."

It's perfectly fine then for 2,000 people to be "detained" incommunicado from their own families without any charges being laid, as long as the FBI can claim that these people "might" be terrorists.

Personally, I find the fact that the US has ruled that the prisoners of war (I believe they're technically being refereed to as "unlawful combatants" or something - like the VC did with US POWs in Vietnam), being held in Guantanamo don't have human rights, highly questionable.

One has to wonder how a right that's recognized by a state as being inherent, and unalienable, can then be removed by order of that same state. Seems to point to rather large inconsistency in doctrine to me - one that requires rather more explaining than the administration has been willing to do.

(If the administration has actually provided a thorough justification of this decision that I have missed, then I retract my last statement and provide thanks in advance for the relevant link).

 

[Lancecastor]

Same is true for Canada - in fact, seems to me you're just expressing a logical tautology.

• All governments use lies to incite patriotic support for wars
• All wars have to do with death and expansion
• Ergo, all governments lie to incite support for death and expansion QED

To use this fact to call the justification of a war into questions, amounts to saying that no war has ever been (or could ever be) a justified war.

Or perhaps you just meant to say that there in no such thing as a just war? In this case I agree with you, but 'just' is not the same as 'justified'.

Seems to me that the only wars Canada has been in were because the Queen told us we had to or in the case of Korea, because the US asked us....we've not started a war as a country on our own for any reason.

But that's not what I'm asking...I'm asking Americans to express how it is that they think invading a pissant country like Iraq, who don't even have the capability to hit a building with a missile 100 miles away....protects their freedom.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

 

[katelync]

Gotta love a Screaming Eagle

*stalking*