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Dropping Foreign Language

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ProbablyInsane

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How much is too much? Specifically:


Or do I bask in the radiance of leur amour, ma petite amie imaginaire, la femme de mon monde? C’est vrai. C’est vrai. Je la désire, alors viens à moi.​


This is less than 700 words in. Will the average reader just dip when hitting that wall of French?

For context, this is a surrealist PWP that'll drop into Erotic Couplings. Pretty sure most readers won't finish it, but I'd like to mitigate back arrow spamming. I mean, the opening lines (below) are a little out there for the casual Lit reader, so... ya lol


All I see is nothingness. The void, the expanse. The abyss, the depths. The litany and the cacophony and the eruption of electric nothingness, a testament to the almighty power of absence.​

It's nothing but a piece of fun, silly writing. Just curious how the Lit experts think this might go :)
 
I translated for the reader in my story “Untrusted.”
"Sprichst du Deutsch? [Do you speak German?]," he asked in German.

"Warum ja! [Why yes!]" she responded in perfect German. "Es ist meine Muttersprache! [It's my native language!]"

"Ja wirklich! [Really!]" he replied excitedly.

She paused.

"Non, pas vraiment [No, not really]," she replied in French.
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I read and understand Spanish at an upper elementary-to-middle school level and have studied bits of French and Italian to be able to understand some words and context. I'll read and possibly understand a small amount of Spanish (and even less of the others), but if I encounter too much, I skip right over it or skip out entirely. I think that's what you risk with the average reader.

In the case you presented, I would use a line in French to establish it as such and then note that the speaker continued French but translate the conversation into English for the reader. Maybe add a few (easily recognizable?) words in French to close out the discussion.
 
I used a short phrase in French at the beginning of one story, ‘Pour nos péchés’ and didn’t explain it until the end. It worked, but it was quite short and the translation was almost a reveal. I’d be cautious of too much.
 
I'm not good at languages despite having taken a bundle of them and having lived a third of my life where English was not the dominate spoken language. I'm put off by finding unexplained non-English terms in English-language works, and, although I will sprinkle my stories with non-English phrases, I won't do it without providing an English-language explanation. I find works that assume I know French or any other such language in an English-language story snobbish, unhelpful, and erecting a barrier between me and the writer.
 
In my story Chlorine Dreams my female MC (Lucia) was Mexican-American and my male MC (Jeremy) understood conversational Spanish. Lucia used occasional but short Mexican slang phrases that Jeremy generally understood because he’d grown up around kids that used them (but, speakers of other Spanish dialects might not interpret them the same way.)

In one case Lucia’s mother asked Jeremy in Spanish “what church do you go to?” Although, she phrased it as “what ward do you go to” due to the location. Jeremy’s inner monologue before he answered explained the ‘true’ meaning of the phrase and the ‘trap’ that had been laid and thus why/how he knew to avoid.

The language was meant to evoke sense of place and personality for my MCs, but I always worked from the basis that this is an English-language story. So, the phrases had to either be common (e.g., “si” or “que?”) and self-explanatory or made clear in context, but without doing a word-for-word translation (e.g., Jeremy didn’t simply repeat the phrase in his thoughts in English...)
 
I don't think there's a way around the French. If I translate it, it's redundant, and I can't make it more recognizable because I'm trying to communicate too much. I think that the ultimate answer is that it has to be cut out. The language (referring to the English, not the French) is already unapproachable enough. It's a fever dream and written like one. I started writing this just for myself and only recently decided that I want to publish it. I know it'll get a terrible rating, but I'd like it to at least have a fighting chance of getting a 2 lol

Thanks for the input. I'll leave it in 'til the end, then painfully, gut-wrenchingly, mash backspace :)
 
As a general matter, I'd say No, don't do this. Ask yourself what the point is. If the narrator is telling 95% of the story in English, why does the narrator suddenly switch to French? What's the purpose.

If you want to throw in phrases once in a while that don't have a precise English equivalent, like je nais se quois, that's fine.

If communication difficulties are a part of the story -- i.e., an English speaking and French speaking person trying to talk to one another -- that's perfectly OK.

But in general I don't see a good purpose served.
 
I throw around a lot of languages in my stories, and usually just italicize the dialogue to indicate that something other than English is being spoken. Sometimes I leave it untranslated, but that's almost always for comedy, and what is being said should be rather innocuous (like Freja ranting in Danish, or Nanu going off in Coptic).

But if it's something significant, I'll say it in the language, and then find a way to fit the translation into my narrative. Recently I had a rapier given to someone, a seventeenth century weapon, and etched into the blade was a dedication to Anne of Austria, whom the original bearer served. I wrote it in French, and then had the person say it out loud in English as they looked on in wonder.

I find readers respond well, depending on how you handle it. Freja's comical tantrums where she swears up a storm don't matter. I just recommend translating the important stuff. Most people don't want to go to Google Translate to continue following a plot.

But yes, use languages.
 
If it is important for the story, then a translation should be included in the story. For example:
“Ich liebe dich,” she said. “I love you, too,” he replied.
If it means nothing to the plot or story, you could certainly provide a translation at the end of the story for the curious reader.
However, in general, I believe it’s best to avoid anything beyond a few relatively insignificant words in a foreign language.
 
ProbablyInsane said:
How much is too much? Specifically:


Or do I bask in the radiance of leur amour, ma petite amie imaginaire, la femme de mon monde? C’est vrai. C’est vrai. Je la désire, alors viens à moi.​
Click to expand...

If your characters know what is being said, then let your readers know what is being said. The most common way I've seen it done on here is putting the translation in brackets.
If the point is for one of your characters to hear the foreign language and to either be confused by it or be swept up by it, then make sure that that is clear too. Something like, "She didn't know the meaning of the words he was saying, but the way his mouth rolled his tongue made her body ache in the universal language of lust."

*edited for clarity*
 
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I put a reasonable amount of French in one story Proper Charlotte. Translations I listed in a comment to the story.

Overall it was well received. No negative comments about the French.
 
As in most things, use foreign language in moderation, I reckon, but find a way to translate that fits the context of the story, is what I usually do.

You've got to balance the intelligence of the cosmopolitan reader who knows a phrase or two of other languages against the wilful ignorance of those who don't. I cater for the former, and if the latter bleat, there's always 'delete'. Don't dumb your writing down to the lowest common denominator is one of my guiding rules.
 
If my story would normally have conversations in another language e.g. Lille - I put a note at the start to say 'Conversations are issued to be in French.'.

My latest story, currently pending, would have been in ancient Greek, but I wrote all of it in British English.

PS. Dorothy L Sayers was renowned for using foreign languages, without translations, in her detective fiction.

She assumed her readers were intelligent enough to understand French, Latin, and Greek.
 
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I do this. I think one of the luxuries of self-publishing on a free online erotica site where many readers appreciate many different stories and styles of writing is that I have lots of control over how I want my stories to flow. Since I’m not a fan of reading (language A)/ [English translation] formatted-dialogue, I don’t write my Lit stories that way.

I have a story where the FMC speaks multiple languages; her fluency is very critical to the plot. Whenever it’s immediately important for the reader to know specifically what was said in another language, I do give an English translation immediately after it’s been said, as part of the narrative and not as a parenthetical note. But not every word is “important” for comprehension; and since I think it looks clunky and inorganic to have “dialogue/English translation” formatting for every line, when the FMC is speaking to other characters who are fluent in whatever language, I just give an expository gist of what’s said in the following narrative: enough information for any reader to understand and follow along. I put full translations at the ends of chapters.

There’s a couple of sex scenes where the FMC talks dirty to the MMC in languages he’s just started learning, and he tries to translate what’s shes saying/describing while she’s doing it. So there, the uncertainty plays into the sex scene far better than parentheticals and word-for-word translations would.
 
I'd say that was just over the edge of what you'd expect a Brit to undersatnd, mainly because it's more than 2-3 phrases. Split it into two sections with a bit of context and explanation, and you'd be OK (though I know you can't assume people are taught French in school any more and Americans rarely did).

I figure that you can get away with basic greetings and yes/no, please/thank you in many languages and it's clear from context, but beyond that you need an explanation so the content is clear.

Here's a couple paragraphs of mine:
"Grüss Gott. Ein Tisch für zwei, bitte." We get led to a cosy corner for two - it's not six yet, so plenty of space. ... Germans love it when anyone attempts their language. Even though, according to a Guns'n'Roses interview I once read, there's only three German phrases you ever need: 'Ein Bier bitte', 'Noch ein Bier bitte', and 'Blas' mir einen, bitte'.

That's 'a beer please', 'another beer please', and 'give me a blow job, please.' Polite lads. You can see their point. I've never tested any of those ones, admittedly, even when I used to travel to Leipzig for work - loads of engineering work in former East Germany. Ein Wodka or Ein Schnapps, more like."

The German words were all in italics. The speaker is an engineer who drinks a lot of spirits.
 
As another person who has lived in many countries around the world I only understand English. I see any other language in what is supposed to be an English story and it's an automatic back click. No comment left, no score left.

Of course I do the same with description of male and female anatomy.

ie.

His fifteen inch cock was almost dragging on the ground. (only if he was on his hands and knees)

Her magnificent 45 DDDDs were putty in my hands. (of course they were, that's what they were filled with, playdough)
 
Kumquatqueen said:
I'd say that was just over the edge of what you'd expect a Brit to undersatnd, mainly because it's more than 2-3 phrases. Split it into two sections with a bit of context and explanation, and you'd be OK (though I know you can't assume people are taught French in school any more and Americans rarely did).

I figure that you can get away with basic greetings and yes/no, please/thank you in many languages and it's clear from context, but beyond that you need an explanation so the content is clear.

Here's a couple paragraphs of mine:
"Grüss Gott. Ein Tisch für zwei, bitte." We get led to a cosy corner for two - it's not six yet, so plenty of space. ... Germans love it when anyone attempts their language. Even though, according to a Guns'n'Roses interview I once read, there's only three German phrases you ever need: 'Ein Bier bitte', 'Noch ein Bier bitte', and 'Blas' mir einen, bitte'.

That's 'a beer please', 'another beer please', and 'give me a blow job, please.' Polite lads. You can see their point. I've never tested any of those ones, admittedly, even when I used to travel to Leipzig for work - loads of engineering work in former East Germany. Ein Wodka or Ein Schnapps, more like."

The German words were all in italics. The speaker is an engineer who drinks a lot of spirits.
Click to expand...

Yup, for me, German (which isn’t a language I’m fluent in) is incorporated into the story in a way I personally would really enjoy reading (btw, what’s the title so I can read it?)
 
electricblue66 said:
As in most things, use foreign language in moderation, I reckon, but find a way to translate that fits the context of the story, is what I usually do.

You've got to balance the intelligence of the cosmopolitan reader who knows a phrase or two of other languages against the wilful ignorance of those who don't. I cater for the former, and if the latter bleat, there's always 'delete'. Don't dumb your writing down to the lowest common denominator is one of my guiding rules.
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What if the language "phrase or two" familiarity of this "cosmopolitan" reader is Mandarin, Japanese, and Arabic? Sort of showing a Western snobbery here.

I have bit of a personal bias here on French. I lived in France at a time when the national attitude there was "our shit don't stink; say it to us in perfect French or watch the glazed eyes." This wasn't all that much after WWII when their record as a people wasn't all that great. So, when I--who studied a whole lot of languages, with only German sticking to any degree--encounter unexplained French phrases dropped into texts, bad memories of French snobbery come back and I'm not likely to read that author again.
 
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KeithD said:
What if the language "phrase or two" familiarity of this "cosmopolitan" reader is Mandarin, Japanese, and Arabic? Sort of showing a Western snobbery here.

I have bit of a personal bias here on French. I lived in France at a time when the national attitude there was "our shit don't stink; say it to us in perfect French or watch the glazed eyes." This wasn't all that much after WWII when their record as a people wasn't all that great. So, when I--who studied a whole lot of languages, with only German sticking to any degree--encounter unexplained French phrases dropped into texts, bad memories of French snobbery come back and I'm not likely to read that author again.
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Parisians are the worst French snobs of all. Even a provincial French accent can result in you being blanked.

My 18th century French with a strong Strine accent just can't be ignored. It causes either shock or unstoppable giggling.

My wife speaks precise immaculate educated Parisian. She was an Au Pair to a retired professor of French Literature from the Sorbonne, who was blind in his old age and wanted her to read the French Classics to him. Her accent is cut-glass and is a shock when she uses it in the Nord Pas De Calais, even if my abuse of French drivers is more effective...
 
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Vix_Giovanni said:
Yup, for me, German (which isn’t a language I’m fluent in) is incorporated into the story in a way I personally would really enjoy reading (btw, what’s the title so I can read it?)
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That's from chapter 3 of my Smoking Hot series. I think it's one of the best things I've ever written, but it's got under 5k views per chapter. The narrator there is Adrian, a cynical widower who's lived in London for years, originally from Northern Ireland (lots of making that dialect clear from context, too!). His best friend Laura has offered sexual favours if he gives up smoking, but then figured he might manage better if she posts an online ad for him looking for a man instead.

Dorothy Sayers reprints translate the paragraphs of Greek, Latin and French nowadays. Even when they were published, her intended audience mostly pretended about the Greek and half would have been faking understanding her Latin, even if they mostly grasped the French.
 
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