Doom's Day

[Svenskaflicka]

Today, the 14th of September, the future of Sweden will be chosen. In about 8 hours, I'll go to the election office and vote a huge NO against Sweden joining the European Monetary Union.

To the rest of you folks, what this election means to you, is whether I will flee to your country tomorrow night, without any money, without any worldly possessions other than my cat, OR if I'll emigrate to your country in 5 years time, hopefully by then a rich business woman.

If you belong to any religion, pray that my side will win tomorrow!

 

[Guest]

Today, the 14th of September, the future of Sweden will be chosen. In about 8 hours, I'll go to the election office and vote a huge NO against Sweden joining the European Monetary Union.

To the rest of you folks, what this election means to you, is whether I will flee to your country tomorrow night, without any money, without any worldly possessions other than my cat, OR if I'll emigrate to your country in 5 years time, hopefully by then a rich business woman.

If you belong to any religion, pray that my side will win tomorrow!

Svenskaflicka, I'm praying hard for your side. I also see your side as my side, btw. When the time comes for this country to take the same vote, I will be voting a big, fat NO!

Supportively,

Loulou

 

[raphy]

And so will I..

Raph, not a huge fan of the Euro.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Whiners...

Do you know the meaning of inevitability?


I've been living in the Euro-zone since its implementation and can't understand what's there to be so against. So far I've seen nothing but advantages...

 

[Jenny _S]

Svenskaflicka,

I'm still burning over the hot economic deal the U.S. made with Mexico and Canada. Free access to their resources and markets - Bull Shit ! It ended up with 20,000 Mexican cheap laborers moving to the U.S. each month and American industry relocating their factories in Mexico and Canada as a way "dealing fairly with organized labor".

Nobody has really noticed yet, but America is NOT the manufacturing giant it once was. The U.S. is moving toward a Technology Based Economy while 70% of an American Automobile is manufactured in France, Mexico and Thailand.

During the Bush (Sr.) administration, I heard an economist speaking about the U.S. Economy in depression. His platform was that America can never be injured by depression for long because "...we will simply gear manufacturing and produce our way out of it." What are we going to do? Sell more software to countries who's economies we have destroyed because they relied on that kind of faulty thinking and followed our lead? We've been in a deep, deep recession bordering on depression for two years now. I don't see anyone "gearing up manufacturing production."

Keep your country free and let the rest of Europe languish with their inane common monetary system.

 

[ffreak]

And bring back the denari.

-FF (going all greek over this)

ps. Don't get me started on my take of the real pocket lining economic policies of the Bush family.

 

[gauchecritic]

Be a devil Svenska. Vote yes.

You know they wouldn't have called it unless they knew the result beforehand.

Even if the result is no they can ignore it anyway. That's why it's called a democracy.

Gauche

Pro-euro: because we have no control over our sovereignty anyway.

 

[Icingsugar]

I voted a week ago at the post office. (I dunno how it works in other countries, but here there are voting booths open a little more than wto weeks prior to the actual election day.)

A big nono from me.

The whole of EU, and EMU in particular is a good thought turned bad. It is said to be a free market with less boundaries and bureocracy for money, pepole and goods within europe. And maybe it is. Thing is, I don't give a shit. All I know is that my father's company had to hire two new accountants to deal with all the extra paperwork when Sweden became a part of the EU.

They went bancrupt last year. Because their main trade was with US and Asia, instead of Europe, and the extra tolls and paperwork brought them to their knees. Free market my ass.

The union is not a wall to keep the eurpoean contries together, it is a wall for keeping other countries out.

But sadly, Gauche has a point. too. It won't really matter what we vote. Not in the long run. We're knee deep in the muck already.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I think it's rather amusing how Scandinavian countries are, with exception of Finland, the more Euro-sceptic of all, when they were responsible for the first proto-European project. If in the 14th and 15th centuries Denmark, Norway and Sweden were amongst the most prosperous nations in the world, wasn't it because of the integration of some of their cities in the Hansa League and the foundation of Kalmar Union, the first political union between independent (sort of) sovereign states?

Like Gauche was saying, sovereignty is an illusion--in recession doubly so--unless you're planning to cut-off with the outer world entirely. The Union isn't a wall at all.

 

[Quasimodem]

Svenskaflicka,
I'm still burning over the hot economic deal the US made with Mexico and Canada. Free access to their resources and markets - Bull Shit ! It ended up with 20,000 Mexican cheap labourers moving to the US each month and American industry relocating their factories in Mexico and Canada as a way "dealing fairly with organized labour".
. . .

You may be correct about Mexico. I doubt it, but I lack figures to contradict you, but about Canada you are all wet.

NAFTA and its ilk have done three things for this country: They have moved most of the Canadian subsidiaries of American Corporations to Headquarters in the States, and their assembly plants to low-cost Third World sweat shops, or their equivalent.

Secondly, it has exerted a force upon the Canadian Social System to realign it to the American system - or rather lack of system. So, like the States, our Social Net is fragmenting, our Health Care is moving toward privatisation, and God help the ones who can't afford an expensive, extra Health Insurance Policy.

Finally, America keeps expecting Canada to react politically as a 51 State, instead of as a sovereign nation, sending, for example, its Canadian Ambassador to an Economic Luncheon – rather than any recognizable Canadian Government official – to threaten economic sanctions against the only individuals in the country likely, both to believe them, and to fear them – Bay Street (Canadian equivalent of Wall Street), for the unacceptable reason that we failed to automatically fall in behind American forces – almost without invitation – in prosecuting a war that appeared unjust at the beginning, and unreasonable in hindsight.

This despite the fact that on the very day the threat was delivered, Canadian forces had announced their commitment to send 1,000 peacekeepers on Operation ATHENA in the War of Terrorism in Afghanistan in August, 2002, had in active service one Destroyer, two Frigates, and a Supply ship, as part of the Maritime Interception Force operating in the Persian Gulf, and had during that very week, rotated another 1,000 fresh troops stationed in Bosnia-Herzegovina .

Add to that, America's inability to live up to NAFTA regulations, re: softwood lumber, Pacific salmon stocks, and softshell crabs to name only the most notorious.

While leaders of a country to whom we have tied ourselves most publically, renege on the Kyoto Accord, refuse Land Mine Reform, reopen the Pandora's box of possible Nuclear confrontations, thumbed its nose at the United Nations, and scoff at predictions of the catastrophic effects of global warming that over 95% of all recognized environmentalists – including America's own – warn is imminent.

Is it any wonder Canadian's feel less than sanguine about NAFTA and all that has followed in it's wake.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

A big nono from me.

 

[gauchecritic]

Political threads. Luv em. Pity it's currently about something of which I have no knowledge.(Canadia/US) On the other hand that's never stopped me before.

Back to Lauren and the EU. Don't Scandinavian attempts at aligning EU countries under one umbrella go back to 10/11th century? Can't say as I recall voting to be pillaged by any old Nordic passersby and having Kings with dubious names like Hoffelfolff and Thruthelthralth.
I thought we were an anarcho-syndicalist commune. I mean I don't go round pretending to be royalty just because some moistened bint throws a scimitar at me.

Gauche

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Gee, Gauche, after such a long and eloquent speech, I think all I can say is... huh?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

The election offices have closed, and the counting has started. The first numbers show a majority for NO.

Wheeeee!!!!

 

[Guest]

Gee, Gauche, after such a long and eloquent speech, I think all I can say is... huh?

Gee, Svenska, it didn't make you laugh out loud? Maybe it's the Yorkshire bits, you probably didn't cover those when you learned English.

I stay out of others' politics but if you're happy I'm happy.

Perdita

 

[Svenskaflicka]

1,7 million votes counted, about 67% for NO.

 

[gauchecritic]

Serious question Svenska. Is it illegal NOT to vote over there?

Even if the poll says no they'll ask you all again anyway until you say yes.

Gauche

 

[Vincent E]

How many euros does it take to buy a lightbulb?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Well, Gauche, it's not illegal to stay home and not vote. As for the politicians going ahead and signing us up even though we vote no... they did that in the 70'ies, when they changed the traffic over to right-sided. 30 years ago, and people are still outraged. I wonder if they would really dare to try that again - I know I for one would take a train down to Stockholm and march up to the Parliament, armed with a huge sign saying "I'M GONNA BEAT UP SOME POLITICIANS. WANNA JOIN ME?"


1/3 of the votes coutned, and we're still leading. *biting nails*

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I, on the other hand, don't even agree with the existence of these types of referenda. I don't know what's the political situation in Sweden, but what usually happens is the Government having a firm conviction and campaigning for it. Their entire political programs are made around certain decisions, and European integration is that big of a decision. If 'No' wins, in any referendum, you're basically saying to the politicians to govern the country in a way they do not condone. Which makes no sense. If you don't like the policy, vote for someone else at the general elections.

The people shouldn't be asked to decide on aspects they know nothing of...

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Actually, it's the other way around... Atleast here in Sweden.

The politicians are chosen by the PEOPLE. The politicians are supposed to be the voices of the PEOPLE. That's why we have elected them. When it comes to a serious decision like this, what counts is what the PEOPLE want.

If you're hinting that people are too stupid to decide for themselves, then you're saying that democracy is wrong, and we should have a Big Brother ordering us around.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

No, what I'm saying is that it gives the politicians carte blanche to fuck up all they want in years to come. Hey, you chose this path...

Politicians are supposed to be people's representatives, not their voices. If the people chose these politicians to represent them, they should trust their decisions or else choose others.

I for one don't want to make all the decisions. I'm not qualified to make them. That is what they're getting paid to do.

If politicians had to ask the people every time they decide something, the whole country would slow down to a halt.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Politicians don't know how to run a country any more than I do, they just know how to make money!

I'd rather have an idealistic amateur running my country than a greedy, shrewd Smooth-Talker.


In any case... 4762 districts out of 5976 counted, and 57% for NO.

I think - knock-on-wood - that we're in the clear.

 

[Guest]

No, what I'm saying is that it gives the politicians carte blanche to fuck up all they want in years to come. Hey, you chose this path...

Politicians are supposed to be people's representatives, not their voices. If the people chose these politicians to represent them, they should trust their decisions or else choose others.

I for one don't want to make all the decisions. I'm not qualified to make them. That is what they're getting paid to do.

If politicians had to ask the people every time they decide something, the whole country would slow down to a halt.

Lauren, I get your point, but it's actually even deeper than you stated. Politicians in a democracy aren't even representatives, they are delegates. Once the people elect them into power we also delegate all power to them, for a fixed term of office. If they fuck up, so be it, we chose to elect them in the first place. If they fuck up big time they sure as hell won't get re-elected, so they do try not to.

I also agree with your point on referendums, however they are extremely rare. In my lifetime there hasn't been one held in the UK. When it comes to time for us to decide on whether or not to join the Euro we will have a referendum. It is a huge issue, one which will affect every person in the country. It is also not party political. I would probably vote no, but only after weighing up the facts, and with careful thought on the issue. Others, who support the same political party as myself, could well vote differently. My political 'enemies' could vote the same way as me. My point is, no matter which way we lean politically, when it comes to an issue as big as the Euro, party alliegance doesn't come into it, therefore just basing the choice on a General Election result would be fundamentally wrong.

Lou

 

[Icingsugar]

Serious question Svenska. Is it illegal NOT to vote over there?

Even if the poll says no they'll ask you all again anyway until you say yes.

Gauche

Sadly true, I guess. At least we've given them something to think about...

56,5 on NO / 5620 of 5976 districts counted.