Don't Ask: Failing the Kids Glove Rule

[daughter]

WS--

Move over. I'm joining your camp. I have had one too many request for feedback when really the author wanted me to praise the work to the high heavens.

Excuse the hell out of me. If folks want fan mail, we have thousands of readers reading this site daily. They read your story. Stroke your ego with a "5" and ocassionally write and tell you how great the story is(often don't tell you why though).


I take my time to read the story/poem. Take my time to write something that is honest and constructive, and I get cussed out because,"Obviously, you just don't like my writing."

Why would I take the time to reply if I weren't interested in a writer's efforts?

I don't blow sunshine up folks butts, but I ain't interested in shooting anyone down either. So if you don't care for my brand of feedback, don't ask.

Cheerleaders root even when the team is losing. The coach tells the team to get their ass in gear. I don't even use expletives. That's as good as it's going to get.

Peace,

daughter

p.s. Realize this probably belongs here at not SD. Apologize for the double post.

 

[Whispersecret]

There, there, daughter. I know how you feel.

It's impossible to really know if a writer REALLY wants your honest comments until you give them to him/her and see their reaction. I found it helpful to send a quick note saying that I had some stark, honest thoughts about their writing and would they be interested in hearing them. I would warn them that my comments might be difficult to hear. Forewarned is forearmed. Then, if they still wanted to listen, I told them.

Maybe that will help.

Not everyone, obviously, is ready to hear that their stuff isn't the greatest thing since the printing press was invented. Don't waste your time on the wannabe writers who aren't really interested in improving. It's not worth the frustration.

 

[daughter]

WS--

I have started doing just that especially when I initiate feedback. I make a positive statement and ask what kind of feedback the writer is looking for. That way if I respond to another work, I know what is acceptable.

However, when the writer contacts me first, I'm less cautious. I'm inconsistent with how gentle I am. And that is my fault.

Frankly, just as much as a writer doesn't want to be insulted, I am offended if a writer expects me to seriously alter who I am just so he can stomach my opinion.

I am exasperated. I'm upfront. If folks know nothing else about me, that's one of the first things I make clear.

This post is a caveat in neon. I'm all for being civil and respectful. I'm not big on coddling folks.

Thanks, WS. Sure there is a lesson in this. Spend more time writing.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Couture]

Please . . . you said I wrote like an adolescent.

By the way, I care less about your vote. I’ve got stories in the top 20, in several categories and I didn’t have to post a hundred messages on the bulletin boards in two weeks, just so people would read them as someone has done (hint hint). I also didn’t put people on my distribution list and send them a bunch of crap they aren’t even interested in.

Now, I didn’t respond to your nasty e-mail today and I refuse to even post on a thread you have responded to or started. This will be my last correspondence to you, please leave me be and take your nasty karma and lack of tact with you.

 

[Couture]

I also take offense to you saying that I cussed you. I did not cuss you, even though I felt like it after the adolescent comment.

 

[daughter]

no names

Couture--

No you didn't cuss at me. Of course, there's no mention of your name in my post either.

I belong to four poetry boards, this site and a listserve. I never said it was here. I never mentioned the gender, the story or anything about the writer.

I didn't tell.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Guest]

warning? daughter you lie through your teeth. There was no warning to your feedback. It was uncomplimentary to say the least.Via the story/poetry feedback thread started by redwave you don't like it either.

 

[daughter]

warnings

Couture--

The multiple posts I've made those attention getters, were clear indicators of how I interact. I have not changed. I was as candid with you as I stated on the board. I didn't come out of left field on you.

You could just as easily post our private correspondence. Thoroughly humiliate me and feel completely vindicated.

I regret that you were offended. That is no lie.

You've been heard, Couture.

Peace,

daughter

p.s. I'm done. Out. Moved on.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I just read some of your stuff. Not too bad at all. You create interesting scenarios and move them well.

But, your metaphors are awkward, you change narrative tense in the middle of a paragraphs, your sentences are very occasionally grammatically ill-constructed and read like speech, your dialogue paragraphs are frequently not separated from unrelated inner monologues and description, your characters have no specific voice, and you sacrifice telling prose for bland exposition.

And, forgive me, but the above does make for a very "adolescent" read. Not a bad read, just an undisciplined one. You're certainly as good as, and frequently better than a lot of Lit submissions, but you're nowhere near as accomplished as the best writers here.

Another but...

I do think that with practice and attention to good writing skills you could be excellent.

 

[daughter]

Thank you

Dixon Carter Lee.

You covered several submissions, but I can only correct one at a time.

If you ever have time, please address a specific work with specific problems that need to be addressed. I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions on how to improve them.

I'll check my email. Perhaps you took time already to point out flaws.


Thanks.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

LOL

daughter, I wasn't referring your work, but Couture's. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[daughter]

Too funny

Dixon--

Well, thank you. LOL

I put up a mix of works. Some are better than others. I figured you peeped the weakest ones.

I checked out your "Jazzy Girl"(will go back and read it.) So, if you ever have time, I'd really appreciate your view. Glad you wrote. I think I found another good read.

 

[Couture]

I'm getting a little tired of this stuff, but as it may help someone in the future. . .

See, I've just read Dixie's review and she worded it in such a way that I was not offended in the least. Maybe I will be, after I pull out the dictionary and see what some of them words mean ;-)

Honestly, I haven't read much around here that I couldn't find *something* good to say about it. If Dixie had given me only her criticisms and phrased them in a smart ass way, my response would have been to put a big brick wall up or even told her to kiss my ass.

It is important to be able take constructive criticism, but it is equally important to know how to give it.

 

[Couture]

Dixie = Dixon

sorry

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

And...

She = He

LOL (No problem)

I've run many moderated critique workshops for playwriting and prose, and have found that it's also important to know how to ask for critique. Asking for "general comments" is usually the worst thing a writer can do. The more specific a writer is about what kind of help he/she wants, the better the critique will be.

 

[Guest]

While I understand the sensitivity issues brought up in this thread I have to say get a grip! Yeah, we know it takes a lot of work to create a story or a poem but so what?

You want a pat on the back for effort fine then reach around and do it yourself. Perhaps what you need is to mature and accept crits, and understand that it's not about you, it's about the work that you have submitted and asked for comment on. But, please spare the rest of us the whining. The energy that you wasted shouting and pouting would have been better used in writing.

If you disagree with a critic’s comments then reject it or ask her why she felt this way. If she said your writing or the plot or character development was adolescent then ask her for clarity, 'In what way?'

I understand that you are sensitive in your critiques and only choose one or two things, but that kind of nonsense doesn’t help the writer improve especially if what you’re correcting is grammar. Certainly good grammar is important but proper syntax is not going to turn a poor work into a good one when the real flaws are the structure of the story and the character depth are too shallow to support the readers interest. "Love the punctuation and your perfect use of prepositional phrases." Oh, yeah. Believe it or not that is no favor. Give me more than eight concerns (though this many might mean chucking the draft and starting over.) I will look at them all and work on them in the order of what I feel is relevant and that’s if the work warrants it. While I may not agree with everything you might say, I'll be glad that you read it and offered comment.

Otherwise, stay at home, draw the blinds and never venture to the outside. Oh yeah, cry about it some more, and attack the person you asked to comment. You’re lucky someone took the time to read and comment to it at all.

 

[Guest]

Last comment form the unwanted unheard troll.
daughter's criticism was unwanted nor solicited by me. I am not a whining, pouting person who cannot handle honest comments. It was the way she stated what she didn't like and no encouragement at all. She sounds intelligent and her poetry is good BUT no tact or diplomacy.
I don't want people to read my stories and pat me on the head but I do hope for respect.
The way daughter critiques is her style. No one can change that nor has the right to say she must. It's a free world. I just wanted to point out that if she toned down a little then her criticism would be acceptable.
Literotica is a fantastic place, with some extremely talented people but don't forget there are new writers here that need to be encouraged as well as guided not be squashed by harsh terminololgy and then get told get a grip!

 

[Couture]

I find it pretty ironic that someone posting under 'unregistered' would lecture me about drawing the shades and not venturing out of the house.

 

[Whispersecret]

That IS pretty funny.

 

[Mickie]

daughter -- some people just don't want to accept criticism, no matter what you do. It makes things easier if you add a little humor and understanding to the mix of telling them what they can do to improve their work. Generalizations of the piece usually end up getting the critiquer in trouble. Try to be really specific in a crit, and, if it needs a LOT of work, then do pick one or two things the author can work on, instead of inundating them with faults. Include some praise in with the crit. Balance it out and make the wording sound like you understand what the writer is going through without being condescending. (I have trouble with that one, myself. I come across as more condescending than helpful sometimes.)

I don't always follow my own rules, and I sometimes allow the personality of the writer to affect the way I give a critique. I shouldn't, but I'm not perfect, either. However, what I say is usually honest, no matter how I say it. And, sometimes, honesty is punished no matter how well intentioned. The best thing to do is apologize for hurt feelings and then let it go.

Mickie

 

[daughter]

I agree

Mickie--

I hear you. I have become more selective. I offer only when asked now. Good advice and I admit the flaws you mentioned.

I'd love to let go. Some will never forgive or acknowledge the effort I make to improve. I accept that.

Switching gears isn't easy. Much of the phrasing I use is acceptable in other circles. I was surprised by the reactions some of it elicited. Clearly, I have room for improvement. I do have a sense of humor. I'll do my best to lighten up.

Thanks.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Mickie]

Not a problem, daughter. I've been in your shoes more often than I'd care to admit, which is why I don't do edits unless the author is aware of my style and still asks for it.

Other circles -- well, I do more critiquing and editing in other places than I do here mainly because most of the authors here are not writers, but hobby-ists. They don't care about commas or general grammar. They care about the story and if it seduced their readers. It isn't that they don't take pride in their work, but they consider it good enough after they've finished the first draft. The finer points of writing they leave up to those of us who get paid to write. This is something I still rant about, but I can't change it. Those are also the kind of people who say they want to improve their writing, but they really don't mean on a certain story. They mean overall. Their next one will show improvement.

What we have at Lit are a bunch of people trying to explore sexuality, not writing. That's the difference between a writing site for other genres and this one. This one offers a balance of intent, and I, for one, am enjoying it. You can get such a mix of readers here, from those who just read and wouldn't touch a pen for fear of it biting them, and those who write obsessively, like me. The feedback is so varied, from pure fluff to real constructive criticism, that I've found a comfortable place in the middle of it. Balance is always the key here. And a healthy sense of what's important to you, as an individual.

I don't like it when I've hurt someone's feelings, especially when they take exception to my honest opinion. I want to justify my opinion, and make sure they understand what I really meant to say. Usually, they don't want to listen. My only option after that is to walk away. I can't prove anything to someone who only wants to remain angry. I've been re-buffed, and that hurts too. But the feeling goes away, and is replaced with other feelings we inherit from people who understand what we mean, even if we didn't say it right. And someday, when the hurt feelings are less immediate, there might be a time for dialogue. And maybe not. Time is the only thing that knows.

Philosophic, aren't I?

Just keep moving forward, daughter. (why do I keep thinking I'm talking to my own kid?)

Mickie

 

[daughter]

your kid

Mickie--

Maybe you feel like you're talking to your kid because of my mixed skill and experience. My daughter drives me nuts with the same thing. She can be mature and responsible one minute, and the next I'm thinking," why did she do that"? LOL

I am a student writer who happens to be opinionated and outspoken. That can either intimidate or piss folk off. Don't laugh when I tell you I've been trying to improve that. Hell, I'm actually better.

I am serious about writing, and I fail to adjust my approach with others who don't operate like I do.

I appreciate your comments, patience, and advice. When I succeed at applying it more regularly, I'm sure others will thank you.

So glad to hear from someone who has put his foot in his mouth a few times, too. I have met and read folks here that I am glad I have discovered. I look for them and I'm more cautious about what I say to the hobbyist.

Peace,

daughter

p.s. I love your rants.